Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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read the full chapter context of Roman’s 10. Paul is clearly talking about salvation in this current life from unbelief to belief and that is the same salvation we see fully revealed at the last day. It’s the same salvation. We simply become glorified. That last day salvation is the reality we live from today. For we know that Jesus said “It is finished.” Pay attention to the past tense.

For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭NIV‬‬



“and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭10‬-‭15‬ ‭NIV‬‬
It is speaking of coming to faith, but that coming to faith is by God, not man - it is to those who have been born again for the reasons I stated in that reply, which I am not going to repost now. The "shall be saved", is the final act of, or realization of salvation - it had not yet been completed because it is in the future tense - the Bible describes it as such. Otherwise, there would be no need to describe it in that way. Have you already appeared with Christ in glory? that is the final salvation being spoken of - the salvation of the body (so to speak). Do you see the "in Christ you have been" - that is of Christ not of themselves, and "God made you alive", that is by God not of themselves- all the things you posted were of/from God, not of/from man.
When Christ said, "it is finished" He was speaking about His sacrifice/offering being completed, not completion of the events that it set into play. Do you think everything pertaining to salvation had been completed when He said that? No, its actualization remained yet to occur.
 

rogerg

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Where in that post does anything about anything you said?
You said they were not 100% faithless, right? I said that true faith can only come from God, not by man.
What does not 100% faithless even mean? True faith cannot exist before it is given.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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No murder is still wrong, stealing is still wrong, etc.

How can you say a believer can do bad things, that is the oppoisite of the walk of the believer.

Matthew 7:15-20
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Jude 1:4,For certain men have slipped in, whose judgment was written about long ago, wicked ones perverting the favor of our Elohim for licentiousness, and denying the only Master יהוה and our Master יהושע Messiah.”

“licentiousness “ is word G#766 - aselgeia: licentiousness, wantonness
Original Word: ἀσέλγεια, ας, ἡ Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine Transliteration: aselgeia Phonetic Spelling: (as-elg'-i-a) Short Definition: wantonness, lewdness Definition: (outrageous conduct, conduct shocking to public decency, a wanton violence), wantonness, lewdness

Using His mercy for a license to sin is bad thing.
"The transgression of which is the one and ONLY eternally fatal act of disobedience."

Other acts of disobedience outside of this boundary can be fatal, yes. As in dying the first death.
But believers will NEVER die the second eternal death.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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You said they were not 100% faithless, right? I said that true faith can only come from God, not by man.
What does not 100% faithless even mean? True faith cannot exist before it is given.
100% faithless would be zero faith, it takes at least a shred of faith to begin the process and to come ot YHWH and be saved.
 

SpeakTruth101

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"The transgression of which is the one and ONLY eternally fatal act of disobedience."

Other acts of disobedience outside of this boundary can be fatal, yes. As in dying the first death.
But believers will NEVER die the second eternal death.
So nothing a believer can do is sin? are you saying that?
 

rogerg

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100% faithless would be zero faith, it takes at least a shred of faith to begin the process and to come ot YHWH and be saved.
Wrong. You still can't grasp the verse. It takes NO faith to get faith. True faith is given only as a gift from God.
 

brightfame52

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Funny you picked up right were
rogerg
left off....

Read the context

Romans 5:6-10,For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.For one will scarcely die for a righteous person-though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die-but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."

Does not mean people are going to enter the kingdom faithless


It is more in line with this:

Matthew 9:12-13, “And יהושע hearing this, said to them, “Those who are strong have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering.’ (Hos 6:6) For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.
I read the context, people Christ died for are reconciled to God [saved eternally] while they are unbelieving enemies.
 

brightfame52

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No one is saved without even praying/calling out/believeing with a shred of faith

There is a difference between levels of spiritual maturity, someone who thinks maybe He is the way, and calls out to Him in prayer, is day 1, then they will mature and grow in faith, knowledge and walk.

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”
People Christ died for are saved/reconciled to God even while being unbelievers, hating God Rom 5:10
 

cv5

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So nothing a believer can do is sin? are you saying that?
Of course not. In fact most Christians are sinning in massive quantities every day, day in and day out.
My sinful thoughts have crept in JUST WHILE I HAVE BEEN POSTING THESE TWO SENTENCES!

Fallen sons of Adam are wreckage. It takes God Himself to do the redeeming and reconstituting.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Wrong. You still can't grasp the verse. It takes NO faith to get faith. True faith is given only as a gift from God.
He guides, He does not force.

Psalm 32:8 “I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will counsel you with my eye upon you”

Proverbs 3:5-7, “Trust in יהוה with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; Know Him in all your ways, And He makes all your paths straight Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear יהוה and turn away from evil.”

John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”
 
F

FollowingtheWay

Guest
It is speaking of coming to faith, but that coming to faith is by God, not man - it is to those who have been born again for the reasons I stated in that reply, which I am not going to repost now. The "shall be saved", is the final act of, or realization of salvation - it had not yet been completed because it is in the future tense - the Bible describes it as such. Otherwise, there would be no need to describe it in that way. Have you already appeared with Christ in glory? that is the final salvation being spoken of - the salvation of the body (so to speak). Do you see the "in Christ you have been" - that is of Christ not of themselves, and "God made you alive", that is by God not of themselves- all the things you posted were of/from God, not of/from man.
When Christ said, "it is finished" He was speaking about His sacrifice/offering being completed, not completion of the events that it set into play. Do you think everything pertaining to salvation had been completed when He said that? No, its actualization remained yet to occur.

We live into that spiritual reality today for it is said

“For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭6‬:‭2‬ ‭NIV‬‬

For we are currently being transformed.

“And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭18‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Also regarding Roman’s 10 what are you missing here? Paul is speaking to believers “about” those who are not born again yet Paul is using the unbelieving Jews as an example . Otherwise he wouldn’t be saying things like the underlined. He is using this as an example because the unbelieving have Gods law written in their hearts weather the unbelieving choose to observe it or not. The law- the 10 commandments- are written into the hearts of gentiles into their conscience. But they need to hear the gospel just as Jews needed to hear the gospel.



“Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: “Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.” Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”And Isaiah boldly says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.” But concerning Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10‬:‭1‬-‭21‬ ‭NIV‬‬

We know that God is sovereign but there are also spiritual forces at work that veil the revelation of Christ. There is a choice below describing “turning” to the Lord.

“Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭7‬-‭17‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 

SpeakTruth101

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I read the context, people Christ died for are reconciled to God [saved eternally] while they are unbelieving enemies.
You isolate and twist one verse and only seem to quote Paul.

Matthew 9:12-13, “And יהושע hearing this, said to them, “Those who are strong have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering.’ (Hos 6:6) For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.”

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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Of course not. In fact most Christians are sinning in massive quantities every day, day in and day out.
My sinful thoughts have crept in JUST WHILE I HAVE BEEN POSTING THESE TWO SENTENCES!

Fallen sons of Adam are wreckage. It takes God Himself to do the redeeming and reconstituting.
We are suposed to accept the guidane of His Spirit and walk in His ways, everyone is not at the same place in their walk, yest the believer is supposed to sek to be like Yahshua/Jesus, that is the definition of Christian.

1 Peter 4:1-6, “1 Therefore, since Messiah suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so that he no longer lives the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but according to the desire of Elohim. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the desire of the nations, having walked in indecencies, lusts, drunkenness, orgies, wild parties, and abominable idolatries, 4 in which they are surprised that you do not run with them in the same flood of loose behaviour, blaspheming, 5 who shall give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the Good News was also brought to those who are dead, so that, whereas they are judged according to men in the flesh, they might live according to Elohim in the spirit.”
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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You isolate and twist one verse and only seem to quote Paul.

Matthew 9:12-13, “And יהושע hearing this, said to them, “Those who are strong have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire compassion and not offering.’ (Hos 6:6) For I did not come to call the righteous to repentance, but sinners.”

John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”

John 7:17, “If anyone chooses to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself.”
It appears you have little to no respect for the saving efficacy of Christs death. According to Rom 5:10 how are they reconciled to God ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 

SpeakTruth101

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It appears you have little to no respect for the saving efficacy of Christs death. According to Rom 5:10 how are they reconciled to God ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
So I post 3 passages of ONLY Yahshua'Jesus words and I dont respect Him or His work?

Odd.

Paul
Romans 14:9, "For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."

Jesus
Luke 20:38, "Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.”
 

SpeakTruth101

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I think most people hate Jesus words, because when I post this I get accused

John/Yahanan 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."
 

rogerg

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Also regarding Roman’s 10 what are you missing here? Paul is speaking to believers “about” those who are not born again yet Paul is using the unbelieving Jews as an example . Otherwise he wouldn’t be saying things like the underlined. He is using this as an example because the unbelieving have Gods law written in their hearts weather the unbelieving choose to observe it or not. The law- the 10 commandments- are written into the hearts of gentiles into their conscience. But they need to hear the gospel just as Jews needed to hear the gospel.
Paul is speaking to those who have become born again because until they have been, they cannot have true faith.

The laws of God are the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and the law of sin and death.
To have those laws written into one's heart and understanding, requires them to be born again.
Otherwise, the heart remains deceitful above all things.
For those saved, the no commandments, including the Ten Commandments, that play any part whatsoever in their salvation.
Those not born again cannot choose because they are spiritually dead in sin and therefore obvious to the true laws of God.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Heb 7:18 KJV] 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
 
F

FollowingtheWay

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Paul is speaking to those who have become born again because until they have been, they cannot have true faith.

The laws of God are the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus and the law of sin and death.
To have those laws written into one's heart and understanding, requires them to be born again.
Otherwise, the heart remains deceitful above all things.
For those saved, the no commandments, including the Ten Commandments, that play any part whatsoever in their salvation.
Those not born again cannot choose because they are spiritually dead in sin and therefore obvious to the true laws of God.

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

[Heb 7:18 KJV] 18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Jesus expected Nicodemus to be able to understand spiritual rebirth.

““How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬-‭11‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 
F

FollowingtheWay

Guest
Jesus expected Nicodemus to be able to understand spiritual rebirth.

““How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭9‬-‭11‬ ‭NIV‬‬
Jesus expected the Jews to make the connection between the bronze serpent on the pole and His crucifixion .

“Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.””
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭14‬-‭15‬ ‭NIV‬‬
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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So I post 3 passages of ONLY Yahshua'Jesus words and I dont respect Him or His work?

Odd.

Paul
Romans 14:9, "For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living."

Jesus
Luke 20:38, "Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.”
According to Rom 5:10 how are they reconciled to God ?

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.