Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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@Lamar

2 Peter 2:20-22
New American Standard Bible
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”
It would prove they were never saved
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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Revelation 2:4-5,“But I hold this against you, that you have left your first love.“So remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works, or else I shall come to you speedily and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”
 

notmyown

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May 26, 2016
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Revelation 2:4-5,“But I hold this against you, that you have left your first love.“So remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works, or else I shall come to you speedily and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.”
to whom is the Lord Jesus speaking? what does a lampstand signify?
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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to whom is the Lord Jesus speaking? what does a lampstand signify?
They are the conggregations/assemblies of Yahshua. He is speaking to the assembliy in Ephesos, and giving them a warning, a warning of a possibility most reject, because many seem to claim Jesus words are not for them they are to someone else...

Revelation 1:12, 13, 20,

12 And I turned to see the voice which spoke with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, Zec 4:2

13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Aḏam, Dan 7:13 dressed in a robe down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. Dan 10:5.

20 “The secret of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lampstands which you saw are seven assemblies.

Revelation 2:1-5, 1 “To the messenger of the assembly of Ephesos write, ‘He who is holding the seven stars in His right hand, who is walking in the midst of the seven golden lampstands, says this: 2 “I know your works, and your labour, and your endurance, and that you are not able to bear evil ones, and have tried those who say they are emissaries and are not, and have found them false; 3 and you have been bearing up and have endurance, and have laboured for My Name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 “But I hold this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 “So remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works, or else I shall come to you speedily and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

I think they also have more complex meanings but that is the basic meaning.
 

notmyown

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May 26, 2016
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They are the conggregations/assemblies of Yahshua. He is speaking to the assembliy in Ephesos, and giving them a warning, a warning of a possibility most reject, because many seem to claim Jesus words are not for them they are to someone else...

Revelation 1:12, 13, 20,

12 And I turned to see the voice which spoke with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, Zec 4:2

13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Aḏam, Dan 7:13 dressed in a robe down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. Dan 10:5.

20 “The secret of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lampstands which you saw are seven assemblies.

Revelation 2:1-5, 1 “To the messenger of the assembly of Ephesos write, ‘He who is holding the seven stars in His right hand, who is walking in the midst of the seven golden lampstands, says this: 2 “I know your works, and your labour, and your endurance, and that you are not able to bear evil ones, and have tried those who say they are emissaries and are not, and have found them false; 3 and you have been bearing up and have endurance, and have laboured for My Name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 “But I hold this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 “So remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the first works, or else I shall come to you speedily and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

I think they also have more complex meanings but that is the basic meaning.
i agree with your understanding of the meaning. :)

was the Lord Jesus talking to a church, or to individuals?
thanks for being patient with my questions.
 

SpeakTruth101

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Aug 14, 2023
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i agree with your understanding of the meaning. :)

was the Lord Jesus talking to a church, or to individuals?
thanks for being patient with my questions.
an ekklesia, or kohal it is a group/body/assembly of set apart/called out followers of Yahshua, not a denomanation or building

G1577 ἐκκλησία ekklesia (ek-klee-siy'-a) n.
1. (literally) a “calling out.” (see H4744 for usage in Israel).
2. (concretely, of Greece) an assembly of citizens (as called out by the town crier for a specific purpose).
3. (specifically, of Jesus) a called out assembly of the Redeemed of Jesus (Yeshua).
4. (specially, of Jesus) the citizenry of the Redeemed of Jesus whether being on earth or in heaven or both.
5. (of ancient continuity) a called out assembly (of the Redeemed Kinsmen of Yahweh— out of captivity; see Nehemiah 8:8, then Exodus 6:6, Exodus 15:13).
6. (Note #1) (“called out assembly” is first used by context in the Old Covenant in Nehemiah 8:8, Isaiah 1:13, Isaiah 4:5).
7. (Note #2) (some of the Septuagint translators did not recognize and grasp this Hebraic context, and they mistranslated the Hebrew and also frequently misapplied this Greek word elsewhere, obscuring and distorting its meaning and application).
{used only of people, not a location, structure, etc. Of Christ, used only of the Redeemed, not of the unredeemed in their midst}
[from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564]
KJV: assembly, church
Root(s): G1537, G2564
Compare: G1218, G4864
See also: G2822, H4744
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
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an ekklesia, or kohal it is a group/body/assembly of set apart/called out followers of Yahshua, not a denomanation or building

G1577 ἐκκλησία ekklesia (ek-klee-siy'-a) n.
1. (literally) a “calling out.” (see H4744 for usage in Israel).
2. (concretely, of Greece) an assembly of citizens (as called out by the town crier for a specific purpose).
3. (specifically, of Jesus) a called out assembly of the Redeemed of Jesus (Yeshua).
4. (specially, of Jesus) the citizenry of the Redeemed of Jesus whether being on earth or in heaven or both.
5. (of ancient continuity) a called out assembly (of the Redeemed Kinsmen of Yahweh— out of captivity; see Nehemiah 8:8, then Exodus 6:6, Exodus 15:13).
6. (Note #1) (“called out assembly” is first used by context in the Old Covenant in Nehemiah 8:8, Isaiah 1:13, Isaiah 4:5).
7. (Note #2) (some of the Septuagint translators did not recognize and grasp this Hebraic context, and they mistranslated the Hebrew and also frequently misapplied this Greek word elsewhere, obscuring and distorting its meaning and application).
{used only of people, not a location, structure, etc. Of Christ, used only of the Redeemed, not of the unredeemed in their midst}
[from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564]
KJV: assembly, church
Root(s): G1537, G2564
Compare: G1218, G4864
See also: G2822, H4744
i see. thank you very much!
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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to whom is the Lord Jesus speaking? what does a lampstand signify?
The lampstands, or as the KJV states it, the candlesticks of Rev 2:5, represented the corporate churches, not the eternal heavenly or true church. The earthly candlestick was made by Moses at the direction of God, and therefore, was an example/depiction of the true. The true candlestick however is in heaven and is eternal as-is, having been built by God Himself. The man-made candlestick on the other hand, was intended only as a mirror of the true, but was not the true itself, as all of its congregants were not always of the true, and thereby were both corporately subject to committing the spiritual sins of man. However, from God's perspective, not so with the heavenly. With the heavenly, it, being the eternal one, as are its congregants of the eternal, will not/cannot be removed from their place because they are there by Christ, not of themselves. Those who are elected to salvation- the saved - alone are its eternal congregants. Consequently, when the leadership of an earthly candlestick (church) - which church was a physical manifestation of Moses's candlestick - went astray from the truth of Christ, and thereby led his church astray, God reserved and executed the right to remove that candlestick (that earthly church) from its place and from remaining as His and heaven's earthly representation/representative. The warning given to those churches were directed to the saved congregants within it, that they should replace the leadership (or whoever had led it astray) and make the needed corrections so that only the true gospel would henceforth be preached by it. Unfortunately, not all of those churches over time heeded that warning.
Nevertheless, the saved of that church, eternally would/will retain in their place in the heavenly candlestick as being its congregants.

There is great distinction yet to be made and examined between the heavenly candlesticks and the earthly candlesticks, but this thread is probably not the appropriate place for doing so.

The candlestick was part of, and within, the tabernacle.

[Exo 25:9 KJV]
9 According to all that I shew thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make [it].

[Exo 25:31 KJV]
31 And thou shalt make a candlestick [of] pure gold: [of] beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.

[Psa 1:4-5 KJV]
4 The ungodly [are] not so: but [are] like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

[Heb 8:2 KJV]
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

[Heb 8:5 KJV]
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, [that] thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
 
Oct 31, 2015
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A straw man choice you have set up.

NO ONE was "saved" until Jesus's death and resurrection.
There were, and are, "disciples" or followers of Christ, that were not, and are not saved.

So you believe Jesus failed to get people saved under His ministry ?


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:12.

  • lest they should believe and be saved.


By believing His message, people were saved under His ministry.





Please show the scripture that says NO ONE was saved until Jesus death and resurrection.







JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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Christ disciples were saved, except judas, the chosen son of perdition, the lost one. Now the other eleven were ethnic jews, however that has nothing to do with why God saved them, salvation is by grace, not race

Judas believed Jesus and responded to His call to become a disciple.


Judas followed the Lord for over three years and was promoted to an apostle.


Judas was sent out with the others and empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, cast out devils, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cleanse the lepers… the later on he betrayed Jesus, and never repented, unlike Peter who betrayed him but returned and was restored.


These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:5-8


Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other eleven in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28









JPT
 
Oct 31, 2015
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They were not saved until
John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Do you believe Abraham had the Spirit in Him?


How about Elijah?



My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:27
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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OSAS should really be modified to say ISAS.

IF SAVED ALWAYS SAVED. Because you only get saved once.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Judas believed Jesus and responded to His call to become a disciple.


Judas followed the Lord for over three years and was promoted to an apostle.


Judas was sent out with the others and empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, cast out devils, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cleanse the lepers… the later on he betrayed Jesus, and never repented, unlike Peter who betrayed him but returned and was restored.


These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Matthew 10:5-8


Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other eleven in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28









JPT
Judas wasnt saved, he was chosen to fulfill his role as the son of perdition, to betray Christ, he wasnt chosen for salvation. When speaking about Salvation Jesus said this Jn 13:18

I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other eleven in the age to come.
Judas, the Satan/man (as opposed to the God/Man), is the only person in Scripture in whom the devil indwelt.
Judas is a type of the anti-Christ. Judas WAS chosen, specifically, as the one who would DELIVER (not betray.....God Who exists outside of time and is omniscient cannot be deceived) Jesus to the cross.

All part of Gods plan from eternity past.

Judas was NOT SAVED, and he never was. On the contrary, he is the son of perdition, as are all of the unsaved.

Jhn 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Judas, the Satan/man (as opposed to the God/Man), is the only person in Scripture in whom the devil indwelt.
Judas is a type of the anti-Christ. Judas WAS chosen, specifically, as the one who would DELIVER (not betray.....God Who exists outside of time and is omniscient cannot be deceived) Jesus to the cross.
Matthew 10:4; see also Matthew 27:3, John 6:71, John 6:64.

New International Version
Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.


New Living Translation
Simon (the zealot), Judas Iscariot (who later betrayed him).


English Standard Version
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.


Berean Standard Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus.


Berean Literal Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one also having betrayed Him.


King James Bible
Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


New King James Version
Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.


New American Standard Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who also betrayed Him.


NASB 1995
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


NASB 1977
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


Legacy Standard Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


Amplified Bible
Simon the Cananaean (Zealot), and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


Christian Standard Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


Holman Christian Standard Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.


American Standard Version
Simon the Cananaan, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Shimeon The Zealot, and Yehuda Skariota, he who betrayed him.


Contemporary English Version
The others were Simon, known as the Eager One, and Judas Iscariot, who later betrayed Jesus.


Douay-Rheims Bible
Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


English Revised Version
Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


GOD'S WORD® Translation
Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who later betrayed Jesus.


Good News Translation
Simon the Patriot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus.


International Standard Version
Simon the Cananaean and Judas Iscariot, who later betrayed Jesus.


Literal Standard Version
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who also delivered Him up.


Majority Standard Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus.


New American Bible
Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot who betrayed him.


NET Bible
Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.


New Revised Standard Version
Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed him.


New Heart English Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


Webster's Bible Translation
Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


Weymouth New Testament
Simon the Cananaean, and Judas the Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.


World English Bible
Simon the Zealot; and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Matthew 10:4; see also Matthew 27:3, John 6:71, John 6:64.

New International Version
Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.


New Living Translation
Simon (the zealot), Judas Iscariot (who later betrayed him).


English Standard Version
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.


Berean Standard Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus.


Berean Literal Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one also having betrayed Him.


King James Bible
Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


New King James Version
Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.


New American Standard Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who also betrayed Him.


NASB 1995
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


NASB 1977
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


Legacy Standard Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


Amplified Bible
Simon the Cananaean (Zealot), and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.


Christian Standard Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


Holman Christian Standard Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.


American Standard Version
Simon the Cananaan, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And Shimeon The Zealot, and Yehuda Skariota, he who betrayed him.


Contemporary English Version
The others were Simon, known as the Eager One, and Judas Iscariot, who later betrayed Jesus.


Douay-Rheims Bible
Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


English Revised Version
Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


GOD'S WORD® Translation
Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who later betrayed Jesus.


Good News Translation
Simon the Patriot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus.


International Standard Version
Simon the Cananaean and Judas Iscariot, who later betrayed Jesus.


Literal Standard Version
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who also delivered Him up.


Majority Standard Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus.


New American Bible
Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot who betrayed him.


NET Bible
Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.


New Revised Standard Version
Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed him.


New Heart English Bible
Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


Webster's Bible Translation
Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


Weymouth New Testament
Simon the Cananaean, and Judas the Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.


World English Bible
Simon the Zealot; and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
The KJV translates Strong's G3860 in the following manner: deliver (53x), betray (40x), deliver up (10x), give (4x), give up (4x), give over (2x), commit (2x), miscellaneous (6x).

Ahhh......yea, betrayed (in your parlance) from SATAN'S perspective. Not God's, Who front-runs every scheme of Satan. Because.....He is omniscient God OUTSIDE OF TIME.
 
F

FollowingtheWay

Guest
Did you catch that Jesus had to give Satan permission to enter Judas for the prophecy to be fulfilled ?

“Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭13‬:‭25‬-‭28‬ ‭NIV

Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

To me I’m understanding Judas would not have had any ideas about betraying Jesus till this moment where Jesus had to give the piece of bread to which allowed Satan to enter Judas.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Did you catch that Jesus had to give Satan permission to enter Judas for the prophecy to be fulfilled ?

“Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him, “What you are about to do, do quickly.” But no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭13‬:‭25‬-‭28‬ ‭NIV

Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

To me I’m understanding Judas would not have had any ideas about betraying Jesus till this moment where Jesus had to give the piece of bread to which allowed Satan to enter Judas.
I never thought of it that way before. However, Judas was a thief, and that, in a sense (a very real sense), was a betrayal of Jesus. And it is not as if had Jesus given the bread to any of the other apostles, they would have had Satan enter into them. Judas was an unbeliever from the beginning. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him.

I have also seen it said of Judas that he never addressed Jesus as Lord, which the other apostles did.

That makes sense given that he was not a believer.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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To me I’m understanding Judas would not have had any ideas about betraying Jesus till this moment where Jesus had to give the piece of bread to which allowed Satan to enter Judas.
Judas was bad news right from the start. A liar, thief and who knows what else. IMO he was always looking for an exit strategy.

As for Jesus giving permission......there certainly is Biblical precedent for such things.
But NO DOUBT that Judas gave Satan permission.