Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Post# 6741 - 6742 - 6750 - 6759.
I didn't ask any questions in any of those posts, except 6759 asking what question you were answering. What are you on about?

In fact my posts to you here recently had to do with whether or not it was grammatically correct to start
a sentence with a pronoun. I responded because you made such a big deal of it as if it were wrong.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
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I didn't ask any questions in any of those posts, except 6759 asking what question you were answering. What are you on about?

In fact my posts to you here recently had to do with whether or not it was grammatically correct to start
a sentence with a pronoun. I responded because you made such a big deal of it as if it were wrong.
The question is on post# 6742. You agreed with the question, I simply answered the question on post# 6750.

Here is the question: Why do you always follow chosen with few? There is a number in heaven that no man can number. The promise to Abraham was as the stars in the sky and grains of sand.

Here is the answer:
For many are called but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)

To Cameron143, NightTwister and Magenta, if the above verse does not answer your question, what more can I say?

Cameron143 seems to think that many are chosen not few.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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The question is on post# 6742. You agreed with the question, I simply answered the question on post# 6750.

Here is the question: Why do you always follow chosen with few? There is a number in heaven that no man can number. The promise to Abraham was as the stars in the sky and grains of sand.

Here is the answer:
For many are called but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)

To Cameron143, NightTwister and Magenta, if the above verse does not answer your question, what more can I say?

Cameron143 seems to think that many are chosen not few.
You should read the parable before the statement you quoted. The chosen few were the Jews who would not come to the marriage. The many called are the Gentiles from the highways and byways, who filled the feast after the ones chosen refused to come.
The chosen and the called are 2 different groups.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
453
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I didn't ask any questions in any of those posts, except 6759 asking what question you were answering. What are you on about?

In fact my posts to you here recently had to do with whether or not it was grammatically correct to start
a sentence with a pronoun. I responded because you made such a big deal of it as if it were wrong.
It is a issue of clarity not grammar. You do not present a scripture and then present a pronoun as the subject of your comment.

I already replied to this issue on post# 6740.

Here it is:
Of course you can begin a sentence with a pronoun but that is not the issue.




The issue is Brightframe52's unwillingness to simply label the antecedent of the "it" in his response. Can you not see this?

I cannot respond to his assertion about 2nd Peter 2:20-22 (post#6681) because I am unsure of what the "it" means in his comment.

Is this to hard to understand? If you cannot grasp this simple concept then I am at a loss of what to say.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,842
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I already replied to this issue on post# 6740.

The issue is Brightframe52's unwillingness to simply label the antecedent of the "it" in his response. Can you not see this?
I already addressed this.
 

NightTwister

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2023
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Colorado, USA
The question is on post# 6742. You agreed with the question, I simply answered the question on post# 6750.

Here is the question: Why do you always follow chosen with few? There is a number in heaven that no man can number. The promise to Abraham was as the stars in the sky and grains of sand.

Here is the answer:
For many are called but few are chosen. (Matthew 22:14)

To Cameron143, NightTwister and Magenta, if the above verse does not answer your question, what more can I say?

Cameron143 seems to think that many are chosen not few.
No, he really didn't say that.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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Matthew 22

Easy-to-Read Version



A Story About People Invited to a Dinner
22 Jesus used some more stories to teach the people. He said, 2 “God’s kingdom is like a king who prepared a wedding feast for his son. 3 He invited some people to the feast. When it was ready, the king sent his servants to tell the people to come. But they refused to come to the king’s feast.
4 “Then the king sent some more servants. He said to them, ‘I have already invited the people. So tell them that my feast is ready. I have killed my best bulls and calves to be eaten. Everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.’
5 “But when the servants told the people to come, they refused to listen. They all went to do other things. One went to work in his field, and another went to his business. 6 Some of the other people grabbed the servants, beat them, and killed them. 7 The king was very angry. He sent his army to kill those who murdered his servants. And the army burned their city.
8 “After that the king said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready. I invited those people, but they were not good enough to come to my feast. 9 So go to the street corners and invite everyone you see. Tell them to come to my feast.’ 10 So the servants went into the streets. They gathered all the people they could find, good and bad alike, and brought them to where the wedding feast was ready. And the place was filled with guests.
11 “When the king came in to meet the guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in the right clothes for a wedding. 12 The king said, ‘Friend, how were you allowed to come in here? You are not wearing the right clothes.’ But the man said nothing. 13 So the king told some servants, ‘Tie this man’s hands and feet. Throw him out into the darkness, where people are crying and grinding their teeth with pain.’
14 “Yes, many people are invited. But only a few are chosen.”
The Jewish Leaders Try to Trick Jesus
15 Then the Pharisees left the place where Jesus was teaching. They made plans to catch him saying something wrong. 16 They sent some men to Jesus. They were some of their own followers and some from the group called Herodians. They said, “Teacher, we know you are an honest man. We know you teach the truth about God’s way. You are not afraid of what others think about you. All people are the same to you. 17 So tell us what you think. Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?”
18 But Jesus knew that these men were trying to trick him. So he said, “You hypocrites! Why are you trying to catch me saying something wrong? 19 Show me a coin used for paying the tax.” They showed Jesus a silver coin. 20 Then he asked, “Whose picture is on the coin? And whose name is written on the coin?”
21 They answered, “It is Caesar’s picture and Caesar’s name.”
Then Jesus said to them, “Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God.”
22 When they heard what Jesus said, they were amazed. They left him and went away.
Some Sadducees Try to Trick Jesus
23 That same day some Sadducees came to Jesus. (Sadducees believe that no one will rise from death.) The Sadducees asked Jesus a question. 24 They said, “Teacher, Moses told us that if a married man dies and had no children, his brother must marry the woman. Then they will have children for the dead brother.[a] 25 There were seven brothers among us. The first brother married but died. He had no children. So his brother married the woman. 26 Then the second brother also died. The same thing happened to the third brother and all the other brothers. 27 The woman was the last to die. 28 But all seven men had married her. So when people rise from death, whose wife will she be?”
29 Jesus answered, “You are so wrong! You don’t know what the Scriptures say. And you don’t know anything about God’s power. 30 At the time when people rise from death, there will be no marriage. People will not be married to each other. Everyone will be like the angels in heaven. 31 Surely you have read what God said to you about people rising from death. 32 God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So they were not still dead, because he is the God only of living people.”
33 When the people heard this, they were amazed at Jesus’ teaching.
Which Command Is the Most Important?
34 The Pharisees learned that Jesus had made the Sadducees look so foolish that they stopped trying to argue with him. So the Pharisees had a meeting. 35 Then one of them, an expert in the Law of Moses, asked Jesus a question to test him. 36 He said, “Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?”
37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And the second command is like the first: ‘Love your neighbor[d] the same as you love yourself.’[e] 40 All of the law and the writings of the prophets take their meaning from these two commands.”
Is the Messiah David’s Son or David’s Lord?
41 So while the Pharisees were together, Jesus asked them a question. 42 He said, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
The Pharisees answered, “The Messiah is the Son of David.”
43 Jesus said to them, “Then why did David call him ‘Lord’? David was speaking by the power of the Spirit. He said,
44 ‘The Lord God said to my Lord:
Sit by me at my right side,
and I will put your enemies under your control.[f]’
45 David calls the Messiah ‘Lord.’ So how can he be David’s son?”
46 None of the Pharisees could answer Jesus’ question. And after that day, no one was brave enough to ask him any more questions.
Footnotes
  1. Matthew 22:24 if … dead brother See Deut. 25:5, 6.
  2. Matthew 22:32 Quote from Ex. 3:6.
  3. Matthew 22:37 Quote from Deut. 6:5.
  4. Matthew 22:39 your neighbor Or “others.” Jesus’ teaching in Lk. 10:25-37 makes clear that this includes anyone in need.
  5. Matthew 22:39 Quote from Lev. 19:18.
  6. Matthew 22:44 control Literally, “feet.”
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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False dilemma fallacy is also known as false dichotomy, false binary, and “either-or” fallacy. It is the fallacy of presenting only two choices, outcomes, or sides to an argument as the only possibilities, when more are available.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Matthew 22

Easy-to-Read Version



A Story About People Invited to a Dinner
22 Jesus used some more stories to teach the people. He said, 2 “God’s kingdom is like a king who prepared a wedding feast for his son. 3 He invited some people to the feast. When it was ready, the king sent his servants to tell the people to come. But they refused to come to the king’s feast.
4 “Then the king sent some more servants. He said to them, ‘I have already invited the people. So tell them that my feast is ready. I have killed my best bulls and calves to be eaten. Everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.’
5 “But when the servants told the people to come, they refused to listen. They all went to do other things. One went to work in his field, and another went to his business. 6 Some of the other people grabbed the servants, beat them, and killed them. 7 The king was very angry. He sent his army to kill those who murdered his servants. And the army burned their city.
8 “After that the king said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready. I invited those people, but they were not good enough to come to my feast. 9 So go to the street corners and invite everyone you see. Tell them to come to my feast.’ 10 So the servants went into the streets. They gathered all the people they could find, good and bad alike, and brought them to where the wedding feast was ready. And the place was filled with guests.
11 “When the king came in to meet the guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in the right clothes for a wedding. 12 The king said, ‘Friend, how were you allowed to come in here? You are not wearing the right clothes.’ But the man said nothing. 13 So the king told some servants, ‘Tie this man’s hands and feet. Throw him out into the darkness, where people are crying and grinding their teeth with pain.’
14 “Yes, many people are invited. But only a few are chosen.”
The Jewish Leaders Try to Trick Jesus
15 Then the Pharisees left the place where Jesus was teaching. They made plans to catch him saying something wrong. 16 They sent some men to Jesus. They were some of their own followers and some from the group called Herodians. They said, “Teacher, we know you are an honest man. We know you teach the truth about God’s way. You are not afraid of what others think about you. All people are the same to you. 17 So tell us what you think. Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?”
18 But Jesus knew that these men were trying to trick him. So he said, “You hypocrites! Why are you trying to catch me saying something wrong? 19 Show me a coin used for paying the tax.” They showed Jesus a silver coin. 20 Then he asked, “Whose picture is on the coin? And whose name is written on the coin?”
21 They answered, “It is Caesar’s picture and Caesar’s name.”
Then Jesus said to them, “Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God.”
22 When they heard what Jesus said, they were amazed. They left him and went away.
Some Sadducees Try to Trick Jesus
23 That same day some Sadducees came to Jesus. (Sadducees believe that no one will rise from death.) The Sadducees asked Jesus a question. 24 They said, “Teacher, Moses told us that if a married man dies and had no children, his brother must marry the woman. Then they will have children for the dead brother.[a] 25 There were seven brothers among us. The first brother married but died. He had no children. So his brother married the woman. 26 Then the second brother also died. The same thing happened to the third brother and all the other brothers. 27 The woman was the last to die. 28 But all seven men had married her. So when people rise from death, whose wife will she be?”
29 Jesus answered, “You are so wrong! You don’t know what the Scriptures say. And you don’t know anything about God’s power. 30 At the time when people rise from death, there will be no marriage. People will not be married to each other. Everyone will be like the angels in heaven. 31 Surely you have read what God said to you about people rising from death. 32 God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So they were not still dead, because he is the God only of living people.”
33 When the people heard this, they were amazed at Jesus’ teaching.
Which Command Is the Most Important?
34 The Pharisees learned that Jesus had made the Sadducees look so foolish that they stopped trying to argue with him. So the Pharisees had a meeting. 35 Then one of them, an expert in the Law of Moses, asked Jesus a question to test him. 36 He said, “Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?”
37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And the second command is like the first: ‘Love your neighbor[d] the same as you love yourself.’[e] 40 All of the law and the writings of the prophets take their meaning from these two commands.”
Is the Messiah David’s Son or David’s Lord?
41 So while the Pharisees were together, Jesus asked them a question. 42 He said, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
The Pharisees answered, “The Messiah is the Son of David.”
43 Jesus said to them, “Then why did David call him ‘Lord’? David was speaking by the power of the Spirit. He said,
44 ‘The Lord God said to my Lord:
Sit by me at my right side,
and I will put your enemies under your control.[f]’
45 David calls the Messiah ‘Lord.’ So how can he be David’s son?”
46 None of the Pharisees could answer Jesus’ question. And after that day, no one was brave enough to ask him any more questions.
Footnotes
  1. Matthew 22:24 if … dead brother See Deut. 25:5, 6.
  2. Matthew 22:32 Quote from Ex. 3:6.
  3. Matthew 22:37 Quote from Deut. 6:5.
  4. Matthew 22:39 your neighbor Or “others.” Jesus’ teaching in Lk. 10:25-37 makes clear that this includes anyone in need.
  5. Matthew 22:39 Quote from Lev. 19:18.
  6. Matthew 22:44 control Literally, “feet.”
The question...who's image is on the coin?...should have led them to the consideration of who's image was on each of them and what was due to the One who's image they bore.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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All were invited so then, all were called.
see v. 3
He sent his servants to call those he had invited to the banquet, but they refused to come.
and v. 4-5 shows the king "again" sent other servants to this group but they ended up enraging the king enough that he destroyed them and burned their city.
Then the king tells his servants in v. 9
Go therefore to the crossroads and invite to the banquet as many as you can find.’
v. 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered everyone they could find, both evil and good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.
When the king came in to see the guests, he spotted a man not wearing wedding clothes and threw him out into the outer darkness. That is, the king rejected the man, which is the polar opposite of choosing him.

So, it is apparent that the chosen are those that came as invited wearing wedding clothes.

In the preceding parable of Chapter 21, the wicked tenants, v. 45 tells us the chief priests and Pharisees knew Jesus was talking about them, and "once again" it was them that Jesus continued in Chapter 22. At the conclusion of Chapter 21, they wanted to arrest him but were afraid of the crowds. So, it seems that the crowds, whether Jew or Gentile being among them, would be included in "everyone they could find, both evil and good."
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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In the preceding parable of Chapter 21, the wicked tenants, v. 45 tells us the chief priests and Pharisees knew Jesus was talking about them, and "once again" it was them that Jesus continued in Chapter 22. At the conclusion of Chapter 21, they wanted to arrest him but were afraid of the crowds. So, it seems that the crowds, whether Jew or Gentile being among them, would be included in "everyone they could find, both evil and good."
Sorry, don't understand your point - what you are implying?
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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Sorry, don't understand your point - what you are implying?
The parable concluded that "many are called but few are chosen" so the whole context of the parable examples all those that were called starting the subject with the introduction of those initially called (He came to His own). And yes, Israel was called but even more set apart within Israel and called to serve God were the Levites, of which the chief priests and Pharisees were supposedly descendant of, unless I'm mistaken somewhere in the succession. Anyway, their group, the chief priests and Pharisees, were definitely called but they didn't answer, and indeed mistreated the messengers so that the king (in the parable) destroyed them and their city (perhaps it might be appropriate to consider their 'city' similar to Vatican City, considering their 'community' is the temple, which is indeed eventually destroyed). And they did think to mistreat Jesus except that they feared the crowds "because they look at Jesus as a prophet" (tho the chief priest dismissed him as fraud so, in my view, they didn't have wedding clothes). Now, looking at the crowds that believed Jesus to be a prophet, of whom do you suppose these crowds consisted of? Just Jews? Just Gentiles? or a blend all peoples, both good and evil? I suppose it was a blend of whomsoever chose to follow Jesus, even Greeks, unless the population Jesus was ministering to was only Israel. But that can't be the case if we remember the woman that he insinuated was "a dog" that came to Him.

So, I wasn't trying to imply anything and was attempting to elaborate on my original statement that "all are called," and I daresay that "all" qualifies as "many," but the few chosen are those that 1) answer the call, and not only that but 2) put on their wedding garments.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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What has yet to be debunked is this

Romans 2:6-8
God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.
If one reads Romans 2:6-8 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as we read and study these passages of scripture, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of obtaining salvation. We must not confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture with "prescriptive" passages of scripture.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (verse 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (verse 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. Those good deeds done out of faith are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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The parable concluded that "many are called but few are chosen" so the whole context of the parable examples all those that were called starting the subject with the introduction of those initially called (He came to His own). And yes, Israel was called but even more set apart within Israel and called to serve God were the Levites, of which the chief priests and Pharisees were supposedly descendant of, unless I'm mistaken somewhere in the succession. Anyway, their group, the chief priests and Pharisees, were definitely called but they didn't answer, and indeed mistreated the messengers so that the king (in the parable) destroyed them and their city (perhaps it might be appropriate to consider their 'city' similar to Vatican City, considering their 'community' is the temple, which is indeed eventually destroyed). And they did think to mistreat Jesus except that they feared the crowds "because they look at Jesus as a prophet" (tho the chief priest dismissed him as fraud so, in my view, they didn't have wedding clothes). Now, looking at the crowds that believed Jesus to be a prophet, of whom do you suppose these crowds consisted of? Just Jews? Just Gentiles? or a blend all peoples, both good and evil? I suppose it was a blend of whomsoever chose to follow Jesus, even Greeks, unless the population Jesus was ministering to was only Israel. But that can't be the case if we remember the woman that he insinuated was "a dog" that came to Him.

So, I wasn't trying to imply anything and was attempting to elaborate on my original statement that "all are called," and I daresay that "all" qualifies as "many," but the few chosen are those that 1) answer the call, and not only that but 2) put on their wedding garments.
Thank you for the explanation, Mem, I perceive the process unfolding a little different than you do (if I correctly understand you), in that, they became of the chosen only by/through the actions of the servants and will of the king - in making them gathered-together on the highway, but not of themselves, nor of their volition; instead, by being gathered-together on the highway, they were immediately made guests and clothed appropriately, and the wedding was thereby immediately furnished. The word "highway' is a symbolic representation of salvation, hence, only the saved can walk on it; the unsaved, not - that is why the servants were instructed to choose anyone and everyone they encountered there - see Isa. 35:8&9 below. Based upon a close examination of the verse, we see that their selection as guests was unconditional: no option was presented to them to either become or not become guests, nor of being clothed nor of how to be clothed; that is, by/through the very act of being on the highway and gathered-together, they were also both simultaneously made guests and clothed (see Rev 3:5 below) - that is why we are informed that many are called but few chosen. Any requirements to “answer the call” and to “put on their wedding garments” as you stated, were not options presented to them in that verse. Were it necessary for them to do so, then that also would have had to be included, yet their absence is evident. On the other hand, those not taken of the highway - those who had refused the wedding- had no choice but to refuse it. Why? Because they were not of the chosen nor of the highway. For them to attempt to make of themselves the chosen was neither within their power nor their authority to do.

The man not clothed in a wedding garment was not of those taken from the highway(chosen). We know this because he was asked by the king: “friend, how camest thou in hither”? Had he been of those of the highway, then the king would not have asked him because he would already have known from whence he came, and he also would have been dressed appropriately as were the others.

Since I think it a very similar parable, and quite possibly even an extension of the same parable, Luke 14:23 corroborates this and provides us with a little more information. Notice in the verse, the "compel (them) to come". They were compelled to come to the wedding – no choice was given to them. Although I am not a Greek expert, yet based upon the definitions that I understand them, "gathered" is very similar (though not exact) with "compel". But in any event, in both verses, no choice was given them – they were gathered-together (compelled) but not because of any choice made by them.

[Isa 35:8-9 KJV]
8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it [shall be] for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err [therein].
9 No lion shall be there, nor [any] ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk [there]:

[Luk 14:23 KJV] 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my huse may be filled.
[Mat 22:10 KJV] 10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
[Mar 13:27 KJV] 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
[Rev 3:5 KJV] 5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


So, in translating these parables into the gospel message, I believe we find only two groups in view: those who were chosen, and those who were not chosen, with those chosen the saved; those not chosen the unsaved.

No need to reply. I just thought I'd throw in my two cents for whatever its worth.