Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Mem]

It bugs me that I chose the wrong descriptive of "outcome," and meant we can't change the respective outcomes, whether saved or lost. And here you've made a further distinction among the saved, the called and the chosen.

Matthew 22:14 - Called (2282 - kletos) in Matthew 22:14 is talking about the general call of the gospel which goes out to all men every time the gospel is preached.

In the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, we read <Adjective, 2822,kletos> "called, invited," is used, (a) "of the call of the Gospel," Matt. 20:16; 22:14, not there "an effectual call," as in the Epistles, Romans 1:1,6,7; 8:28; 1 Corinthians 1:2,24; Jude 1:1; Revelation 17:14; in Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2 the meaning is "saints by calling;" (b) of "an appointment to apostleship," Romans 1:1; 1 Corinthians 1:1.

Called (2564 - kaleo) in Romans 8:30 conveys the idea of an effectual call and emphasizes God's sovereign work. There is a distinction between the called (klhtoi) and the chosen (eklektoi) called out from the called.

Romans 8:30 says ..whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them. Paul made no implication here whatsoever that those who are called and justified will not be glorified.

Just to be certain, you have determined that not only the chosen but all of the called also are glorified, correct?

 

[mailmandan]

It bugs me that I chose the wrong descriptive of "outcome," and meant we can't change the respective outcomes, whether saved or lost. And here you've made a further distinction among the saved, the called and the chosen.

Just to be certain, you have determined that not only the chosen but all of the called also are glorified, correct?

All the called (effectual call) in Romans 8:30. Romans 8:30 says ..whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

 

[Mem]

All the called (effectual call) in Romans 8:30. Romans 8:30 says ..whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

I'm pretty sure I agree but as demonstrated by my earlier grammatical misstep, I still struggle a little with English language skills, in both read and writing it.

To summarize the implication of your points, 1) All are called, but not all are saved. and 2) of those called, a few are chosen and glorified, and
rather than there being a distinction among the saved, such as the "commonly" and the chosen, the distinction is in the called that reject the call and those that receive the call...

And all that receive the call are the chosen, who are, ultimately, glorified, yes?

Thanks for suffering me.

 

[Cameron143]

Do you suppose God calls everyone? Since He gave His only begotten Son to die for us, I would say, “yes.” And then you have the Elect who were predestined before the foundation of the world.
Ephes. 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I think it depends upon what you mean by calling. People struggle with idea of the "elect". To many, if God chooses some to reveal Himself to and others He refrains from doing so, it seems to them counter to their understanding of God. After all, there are verses that appear to be unreconcilable to such a position. And the hearts of the redeemed are very sensitive to the plight of the lost, and they burn within us with a desire for all to come to Christ. So how can a loving God not feel the same?
But does this lead to an accurate picture of God biblically? Partially it does. But God is the sum of His character; not merely the sum of part of His character. Because He is loving doesn't mean He ever stops being just. And His love doesn't operate inside a vacuum. He is at all times equally both loving and just. He is both sovereign and merciful. He is at all times both righteous and gracious.
We seldom consider God this way. How exactly does One who is all these things at once operate? The fact is, we can't fully know. We are finite and imperfect beings. He is infinite and holy.
So I readily admit, I don't know fully the answer to your question. I do believe God has created the world in such a way as to maximize man's ability to recognize God, and to be found of men. For, indeed, He is not far from any one of us. And I believe God made man to not only find completion in Him as well as giving us a consciousness of His existence. And yet, man in his fallen estate neither desires God or understands his need before God, and works contrary to his own good. What compels God to draw one to Himself and to allow another to continue to his or her ruin, I don't understand. But I recognize the choice lies with a sovereign God, and not me.

 

[Magenta]

I readily admit, I don't know fully the answer to your question. I do believe God has created the world in such a way
as to maximize man's ability to recognize God, and to be found of men. For, indeed, He is not far from any one of us.
And I believe God made man to not only find completion in Him as well as giving us a consciousness of His existence.
And yet, man in his fallen estate neither desires God or understands his need before God, and works contrary to his
own good. What compels God to draw one to Himself and to allow another to continue to his or her ruin, I don't
understand. But I recognize the choice lies with a sovereign God, and not me.

From Acts 17:26 - 28

 

[Cameron143]

From Acts 17:26 - 28

I knew if I wrote long enough you would have a panel for something.

 

[Jimbone]

because they have knowledge that God is really God and they reject this Knowledge.

they're accountable to the fact they have the Same Knowledge we all do.

we ALL know God is God.

but, what do we do with that Knowledge is where we Spend Eternity at.

See you've moved to a COMPLETELY different subject. We were talking about the saved and you trying to sell that we can lose our salvation. Now you use verses about the all people saved or lost to hold up your argument? You believe we are saved and "MUST OBEY", to earn the rest of our salvation.
We teach we are saved and by His power now "WANT to obey and only by His power". That is what this whole debate boils down to. One of us teaches salvation is a burden we better not mess up, but when we do it, we get the glory.
The other that Our awesome and POWERFUL God has given us a new heart and life that we are now impowered by Him, to go forth and make disciples of ALL nations. Also one of us represents the others arguments accurately and the other builds this stupid straw guy that no one on the opposing side argues for, then attacks that without fail. Jumping around topics like a monkey, accusing, condemning, and judging wrongly doing all they can to divide. That's the situation.

 

[selahsays]

I think it depends upon what you mean by calling. People struggle with idea of the "elect". To many, if God chooses some to reveal Himself to and others He refrains from doing so, it seems to them counter to their understanding of God. After all, there are verses that appear to be unreconcilable to such a position. And the hearts of the redeemed are very sensitive to the plight of the lost, and they burn within us with a desire for all to come to Christ. So how can a loving God not feel the same?
But does this lead to an accurate picture of God biblically? Partially it does. But God is the sum of His character; not merely the sum of part of His character. Because He is loving doesn't mean He ever stops being just. And His love doesn't operate inside a vacuum. He is at all times equally both loving and just. He is both sovereign and merciful. He is at all times both righteous and gracious.
We seldom consider God this way. How exactly does One who is all these things at once operate? The fact is, we can't fully know. We are finite and imperfect beings. He is infinite and holy.
So I readily admit, I don't know fully the answer to your question. I do believe God has created the world in such a way as to maximize man's ability to recognize God, and to be found of men. For, indeed, He is not far from any one of us. And I believe God made man to not only find completion in Him as well as giving us a consciousness of His existence. And yet, man in his fallen estate neither desires God or understands his need before God, and works contrary to his own good. What compels God to draw one to Himself and to allow another to continue to his or her ruin, I don't understand. But I recognize the choice lies with a sovereign God, and not me.

The way I understand it, God calls every single person to come to Him (Jesus died for each one of us). However, only the elect or a true believer who believes in the gospel, will be drawn to Him. When the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom, this meant that the way to salvation, Christ Himself who paid the price for our sins, was open to all who will choose to follow Him. Our Father is always fair, always righteous.

Romans 9:14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. God is not a respecter of persons. (Romans 2:11)​

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

thats not true..

Romans 1 makes this clear. he reveals himself in many ways, including his creation

yeah, we've established 2 ways God makes contact with us. one as Sinners without God, and one as Joint-Heirs of God.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

See you've moved to a COMPLETELY different subject. We were talking about the saved and you trying to sell that we can lose our salvation. Now you use verses about the all people saved or lost to hold up your argument? You believe we are saved and "MUST OBEY", to earn the rest of our salvation.
We teach we are saved and by His power now "WANT to obey and only by His power". That is what this whole debate boils down to. One of us teaches salvation is a burden we better not mess up, but when we do it, we get the glory.
The other that Our awesome and POWERFUL God has given us a new heart and life that we are now impowered by Him, to go forth and make disciples of ALL nations. Also one of us represents the others arguments accurately and the other builds this stupid straw guy that no one on the opposing side argues for, then attacks that without fail. Jumping around topics like a monkey, accusing, condemning, and judging wrongly doing all they can to divide. That's the situation.

i am going to be very simple and plain in my explanation of what i believe.


1. those Saved REMAIN because we know and have experienced God ...we can leave, but, there's nothing inside us that wants to leave God.

2. should we leave God, which is unfathomable to imagine. we are not abiding/remaining and are choosing to leave, not that God ever leaves us, because, He's there all the way up to the final breathe, even if you choose HELL. He's hoping, like in Jonah, before he dies his thought went about God, and God knew Jonah was calling out to God and then Saved him...but He is there hoping for a last second Repentance. He wants you with Him. but He ain't going to change your Decision that you made on your own merit and will.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

yeah, we've established 2 ways God makes contact with us. one as Sinners without God, and one as Joint-Heirs of God.

the second is because of positive reaction to the first

 

[justpassinthrough]

• [1Jo 2:19 KJV]

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[Jhn 12:37, 39 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: ...
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

[Jhn 6:64-66 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Yes many turned away from following the Lord.


However, Judas and the other eleven continued to follow Him.



His sheep who become lost must repent and return to the Lord, just as anyone who was never one of His sheep.



“What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

• Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’

Do the lost need salvation?







JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Judas wasnt saved.

Judas was a disciple and then was promoted to an Apostle of Jesus Christ, then he became a traitor.


Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16


For Judas to become a traitor he first must have been a legitimate follower and Apostle of Jesus Christ.


Judas was predestined to reign with Christ and the other eleven in the age to come.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

• you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Please provide chapter and verse that says Judas was never saved?






JPT

 

[JimmyTheLock]

For Judas to become a traitor he first must have been a legitimate follower and Apostle of Jesus Christ.

Exactly! Judas was saved and then fell away like many are doing today.

If he had not been saved in the beginning, it would have been a sin for Jesus to be yoked with him as God's Word says to not be unequally yoke with unbelievers.... Jesus would not be violating God's standards by having someone on staff that was not saved.

It was later on when Judas started listening to the devil, God's Word was choked out of him, and he quit baring fruit unto the Lord and started bearing fruit unto satan.

Judas is one of 2 people God's Word says were possessed by satan personally and in satan himself entered him and possed him. The next guy this happens to will be the anti-christ

 

[Magenta]

Exactly! Judas was saved and then fell away like many are doing today.

Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil . . . . . . . John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition . . . . . . John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . John 17:12; 18:9

John 13:10-11 Jesus said to him, “He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and
you are clean, but not all of you.” For He knew who would betray Him; therefore, He said, “You are not all clean.”

Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me
I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus
did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost. Judas was not included in those "whom the Father gave to Jesus to be kept."

With thanks to @mailmandan

 

[JimmyTheLock]

Judas was an unbeliever and is a devil . . . . . . . John 6:64-71
Judas was spiritually unclean . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . John 13:11
Judas is lost and is the son of perdition . . . . . . John 17:12
Judas was not kept by Jesus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . John 17:12; 18:9

All this became true AFTER he started listening to the devil and fell away.

I know you aren't suggesting Jesus recruited a servant of the devil to come work with Him in ministry... and be anointed by the Holy Ghost with all the other disciples to go out and heal the sick and raise the dead...

 

[Magenta]

All this became true AFTER he started listening to the devil and fell away.

Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him.

I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may
be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me...

Judas was neither chosen nor ever saved, being DOOMED TO DESTRUCTION.

 

[Cameron143]

All this became true AFTER he started listening to the devil and fell away.

I know you aren't suggesting Jesus recruited a servant of the devil to come work with Him in ministry... and be anointed by the Holy Ghost with all the other disciples to go out and heal the sick and raise the dead...

Jesus fulfilled scripture by doing so.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Judas was predestined to reign with Christ

↑ Interesting ↑ So, God Failed?

 

[Magenta]

For Judas to become a traitor he first must have been a legitimate follower and Apostle of Jesus Christ.

That is a logical fallacy. Actually, it is multiple logical fallacies .