Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Bible Verses on Perseverance in the Faith and in Works of Love:

Rom 2:6 "To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life."

Mat 24:12 "Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved."

Some OSASers will say the second verse is speaking of not dying, but that is not correct. The context is how, because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of many will grow cold. Those who persevere in faith and love will be finally saved.

Someone else said that, after being justified, you will never lose salvation, even if you commit adultery or murder a 100 times every day. Is that really what the Bible teaches? Let's look at a couple of verses about that.

1 Jn 3:13 "Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. "

Did Hitler have Eternal Life abiding/residing in him? At one time, Hitler said, "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter". But the verse says he did not have eternal life. And why? Because no murderer has it.

And what about adultery? Can adulterers who do not repent of their adultery before death perhaps go to Heaven?

1 Cor 6:9 "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men a 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

It does not say that some adulterers will inherit the Kingdom, but not the rewards, as some OSASers would have it. But rather it says that they will not inherit the Kingdom itself. It means they will not go to Heaven, as Jesus said in Jn 3:5. Just the same as unrepentant unbelievers do not inherit the Kingdom of God, neither do unrepentant adulterers or murderers.

Finally, every sin, no matter how grave it may be, whether adultery, murder, or whatever, can be washed away by faith, confession and repentance.

1 Jn 1:8 "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

May God have Mercy on us all and bring us safely to eternal life in Heaven. In Jesus' Name. Amen.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Revelation 5:10 -- and made us kings and priests to our God.

If believers can lose the reward of ruling with Jesus then what do they have left?

Those who serve in the kingdom.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

Hard to deny, sure seems like this is what Paul said in 2Timothy that if you are with the believers who are saved "so as through fire" and will suffer loss that you will not reign with Jesus!

Exactly! What we will be denied are rewards, because we didn't endure.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible speaks of 2 kinds of inheritance. One is based on simply being a child of God. The other is based on earning reward.

Rom 8:17a - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God

Rom 8:17b - and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

The first inheritance is guaranteed for children of God.

Wow, this also says we won't share in Jesus' glory if we do not share in His sufferings (Romans 8:17b)

Wow, indeed!

So just to be clear, some believers will reign with Jesus and share in His glory and other believers won't! And that is what is meant by "once saved always saved"? Talk about reading the fine print!

Yes, sir.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus was very clear about WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has (possesses) eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

This verse says that eternal life is possessed WHEN a person becomes a believer.

The verse you provided needs a bit more context because it's about the future resurrection to eternal life. Notice where it says "will not be judged" or "will not come under judgment" because it's referring to the future. That corresponds to Luke 18:30, Matthew 25:46, and Titus 3:7 where a future eternal life is referenced.

The verse mentions the past, present and future, all in one verse.

Past: has crossed over from (spiritual) death to (eternal) life.
Present: HAS eternal life. This is a present possession. Now.
Future: will not be judged (at the GWT).

John 5:24-29
24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.
25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself.
27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice
29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

v.28 and 29 do speak of the future; two resurrections, in fact. The "done good" isn't about one's works or efforts, but trusting in the work of Jesus Christ for salvation. The "done evil" is to reject the free gift of eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Bible Verses on Perseverance in the Faith and in Works of Love:

Rom 2:6 "To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life."

Mat 24:12 "Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved."

Some OSASers will say the second verse is speaking of not dying, but that is not correct.

Ignore them. They are not correct, as you say.

The context is how, because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of many will grow cold. Those who persevere in faith and love will be finally saved.

There is no such thing as "final salvation" as some claim. At the moment one becomes a believer in Christ, they POSSESS eternal life (John 5:24) and they shall NEVER PERISH (John 10:28).

You need to deal with these 2 verses. They refute your "conditional salvation" idea.

Someone else said that, after being justified, you will never lose salvation, even if you commit adultery or murder a 100 times every day. Is that really what the Bible teaches? Let's look at a couple of verses about that.

The verses you think claim loss of salvation are being misunderstood. Again, John 5:24 and 10:28 REFUTE such an idea.

The MOMENT a person receives the gift of eternal life, which is WHEN they believe in Christ (John 5:24) they shall never perish (John 10:28).

 

[Runningman]

The verse mentions the past, present and future, all in one verse.

Past: has crossed over from (spiritual) death to (eternal) life.
Present: HAS eternal life. This is a present possession. Now.
Future: will not be judged (at the GWT).

That's interesting, but it doesn't guarantee OSAS since this whole thing is contingent on believing and always believing. So how can the gift of eternal life, and God's gifts are irrevocable, be a past-present-future thing if there comes a point where (presumably) one is required to continue believing anymore after having the gift?

I would like to see a verse just says "Once you're saved, you're always saved." No one in the Bible seems to have wanted to say that.

Also, you noted that John 5:24, that it references the past. So is that predestination to eternal life?

v.28 and 29 do speak of the future; two resurrections, in fact. The "done good" isn't about one's works or efforts, but trusting in the work of Jesus Christ for salvation. The "done evil" is to reject the free gift of eternal life.

Without the future body resurrection to life, death isn't swallowed up in victory. And hence why Jesus said that the children of the resurrection can no longer die. This says that death is possible until AFTER the resurrection; after the resurrection they can no longer die.. they are unable to die... they're immortal.

1 Corinthians 15:53,54
53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Luke 20:34-36
34Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

 

[ZNP]

Summary

This is what I am seeing so far from this thread.

1. Once Saved Always Saved -- only applies to Justification, not to sanctification or glorification.

2. It is very possible for someone who is saved to suffer loss and to be saved so as through fire.

3. Suffering loss means you might not reign with Christ and you might not be glorified with Christ. Those two promises are only to those who endure suffering with Jesus.

It is shocking that the Hope of Glory does not apply to OSAS and it is also shocking that our inheritance can be nullified. It seems to me that the focus on OSAS hides these two huge facts.

Points that are still under discussion and have not been resolved.

1. Is it true that you cannot forfeit your justification? Jesus said that if you do not forgive others then the Father wouldn't forgive you.

2.. What is outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth because it seems the "suffering loss" would apply to the 5 foolish virgins who didn't fill their vessels with oil.

3. Jesus told the foolish virgins to go and buy oil from those that sell. But what happens if they don't?

 

[ZNP]

Here is an analogy.

Suppose you were on an NFL team but hurt yourself before the season started and never played in a game. Still, technically you are on the team and at the end of the year your team wins the Superbowl. As a result you are on a "Superbowl" team and you get the ring. But other than that your involvement was 0. Do you really want to get together every year when they celebrate that team?

 

[Sipsey]

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

It should be very clear to anyone reading this thread that people like Everlasting-Grace ignore, explain away or have a bizarre understanding of the scriptures.

I fear you still do not understand Grace.

It isn’t that God is not faithful, it’s actually rather that He is faithful to the promise He has made, but there are conditions to the the promise. To give eternal life base to those who do not continue to meet the requirements would be unfaithful.

Bottom line is, if what John said is true, then there’s clearly a continual abiding required. If one is not abiding, then they don’t meet the requirements of eternal life.

1 John 2:24,25 NKJV
24Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this isthe promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

1 John 5:11,12
11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

You underlined If. Are you aware there are three definitions of “If,” primarily based on context.
1) If, and it is true
2) If, and it may or may not be true
3) If, and it’s not true

 

[ZNP]

I fear you still do not understand Grace.

You underlined If. Are you aware there are three definitions of “If,” primarily based on context.
1) If, and it is true
2) If, and it may or may not be true
3) If, and it’s not true

Are you directing this to me? If so, based on what? If not, why are you quoting my post which was essentially Bible verses?

 

[Sipsey]

Are you directing this to me? If so, based on what? If not, why are you quoting my post which was essentially Bible verses?

I had began a reply to your statement earlier and had to run errands. Moments ago I thought I was replying to “If” man, sorry for the confusion.

 

[Snacks]

True and when do we get the gift of eternal life in hand? Now or later? If we have the gift right now then it is irrevocable. If we don’t have it yet, and none of us have immortal resurrected bodies, then revocation isn’t applicable to what hasn’t been given yet.

Future eternal life:
Luke 18:30
30will fail to receive many times more in this age—and in the age to come, eternal life.”

Matthew 25:46
46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Titus 3:7
7so that, having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

We get the irrevocable gift the very moment we place our faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, hence why we are called His sheep. If we were not his sheep at that very moment then Jesus would never have said that there is more rejoicing over one lost sheep that is found than 99 that never went astray.

 

[Gideon300]

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.[/QUOTE]
Again an essay in ignorance as to what salvation really means. There are two "salvations" (a word that has lost its real meaning).

The first is instant, irreversible and the work of God. The second is the salvation of the soul, which requires the active cooperation of the individual. It is possible to be born again, which is eternal life, and yet have little experience of the salvation of the soul.

That is what is meant by a number of Bible references, including this one:

17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God? 18And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?” 19So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should entrust their souls to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

The only people who are righteous are those who are born again. The verse makes no sense if there is no second salvation.

 

[Runningman]

We get the irrevocable gift the very moment we place our faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, hence why we are called His sheep. If we were not his sheep at that very moment then Jesus would never have said that there is more rejoicing over one lost sheep that is found than 99 that never went astray.

The context offers a bit more insight and I might add that some manuscripts omit verse 11, but I'll use the NKJV because it includes it. There's only rejoicing over the lost sheep who is found. This is referring to repentance like 2 Peter 3:9 says. Perishing would be the exact thing thing that happens to those who don't believe like John 3:16 says.

The context includes the possibility that this lost sheep may not be found: v.13 "...if he should find it"
The alternative to not being found is that the sheep perishes: v.14 "...it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."

Matthew 18:10-14
10“Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.
12“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

 

[Runningman]

You underlined If. Are you aware there are three definitions of “If,” primarily based on context.
1) If, and it is true
2) If, and it may or may not be true
3) If, and it’s not true

The word "if" is used to say that a particular thing can or will happen only after something else happens or becomes true.

"If" per Meriam-Webster.

If
a: in the event that
b: allowing that
c: on the assumption that
d: on condition that

Here it is again:

1 John 2:24,25 NKJV
24Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

Plainly said in my own words: if [on the condition that] what you heard from the beginning abides [remains in place] in you, you will also abide [remain in place] in the Son and in the Father, then you are promised eternal life. The eternal life can only happen after the if conditions are true.

 

[Runningman]

Saying there are conditions which must be met is saying someone must earn their reward.

Salvation is a gift. You did not do anything to earn that gift. If you received it, then you will reap the benefits of that gift. if you reject it, then you will not. It does not mean the gift is not there.

A person who is rescued in a storm in the middle of the ocean did not save themselves because they allowed the rescuer to save them. they will give credit and glory to the one who saved them

on the other hand, if the person fights and continues to try to save themselves. they will perish.

the tax collector did not meet any condition. He simply became poor in spirit and called out to the one the only one who could save him.

I'm just trying to show you what the Bible says though. I agree salvation is a gift, but faith isn't a gift. That means people like you and I must chose to believe just like Judas and the other apostles chose to believe and some chose to leave Jesus completely. I'm not 100% sure, but Acts 2:25 said that "Judas went to his own place." Not totally sure what that means, but it doesn't sound good.

Acts 2:25 KJV
25That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

I am telling you what Jesus said

John 6: 61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

Jesus knew from the begining. Judas did not surprise him

I agree with what Jesus said, but this is talking about more people than just the 12 apostles and you're not understanding the context. Jesus had a lot more than just 12 disciples at first. Read a bit further into the John chapter 6.

John 6:66-71KJV
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

So even though Judas was a betrayer, he was not labeled as one of the unbelievers. Even the verses you provided made a differentiation between "they who did not believe" and "who would betray Him."

According to Peter, speaking for the other 11, he said they all believe and are sure that He is the Christ, the Son of God.

 

[Magenta]

So even though Judas was a betrayer, he was not labeled as one of the unbelievers. Even the verses
you provided made a differentiation between "they who did not believe" and "who would betray Him."

Judas was referred to as unclean. That surely means he did not believe. He was called a son of
perdition. That means he was doomed to destruction. He was never saved. Jesus called him a devil.
Jesus also said that it would be better for Judas if he had not been born. Jesus knew from the beginning
who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. That is not making
a differentiation. They are one and the same thing.

 

[ResidentAlien]

For anyone who cares to answer: Where exactly do you get the idea that salvation is irrevocable? Chapter and verse please.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's interesting, but it doesn't guarantee OSAS since this whole thing is contingent on believing and always believing.

Your error is in the very common ABUSE of the Greek present tense. Many claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. That is quite false. There is no scholarly evidence that the present tense means the result of an action is dependent upon that action continuing. The reason I quote John 5:24 and 10:28 so often is to drive home the point of eternal security.

In John 5:24 Jesus said that "whoever believes HAS eternal life". That obviously means the MOMENT one believes they POSSESS eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said that those He gives eternal life (Jn 5:24) SHALL NEVER PERISH. So the present tense doesn't "trump" what Jesus said. The MOMENT one believes, they POSSESS eternal life and shall NEVER PERISH. It is that simple.

So how can the gift of eternal life, and God's gifts are irrevocable, be a past-present-future thing if there comes a point where (presumably) one is required to continue believing anymore after having the gift?

See above.

I would like to see a verse just says "Once you're saved, you're always saved." No one in the Bible seems to have wanted to say that.

Yeah, everyone would like to see a verse with words that they want to see. But God doesn't work that way. He gave us His Word, written the way He wanted it written. It is clear enough but we have to have the discernment to understand it.

And the notion that believing must continue for salvation to continue isn't legit. And John 5:24 with 10:28 proves that it isn't.

Also, you noted that John 5:24, that it references the past. So is that predestination to eternal life?

No, Jesus was just making the point that FROM the MOMENT of belief forward, the believer HAS CROSS OVER (past tense) from spiritual death to eternal life. That's a one way trip.

Without the future body resurrection to life, death isn't swallowed up in victory. And hence why Jesus said that the children of the resurrection can no longer die. This says that death is possible until AFTER the resurrection; after the resurrection they can no longer die.. they are unable to die... they're immortal.

1 Corinthians 15:53,54
53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Luke 20:34-36
34Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Could you explain what you mean by the sentence "that death is possible until AFER the resurrection". The Bible says that "it is appointed for man to die once, and after that, the judgment."

 

[FreeGrace2]

Summary

This is what I am seeing so far from this thread.

1. Once Saved Always Saved -- only applies to Justification, not to sanctification or glorification.

That may be what some believe, but glorification is guaranteed from John 5:24, 10:28, Eph 1:14, Rom 8.

2. It is very possible for someone who is saved to suffer loss and to be saved so as through fire.

3. Suffering loss means you might not reign with Christ and you might not be glorified with Christ. Those two promises are only to those who endure suffering with Jesus.

It is shocking that the Hope of Glory does not apply to OSAS and it is also shocking that our inheritance can be nullified. It seems to me that the focus on OSAS hides these two huge facts.

Recall that there are 2 senses of "inheritance", both noted in Rom 8:17. The first one is based on being a child of God. Believers WILL live with God forever. That includes glorification. The second one is based on suffering with Christ in order to share in His glory.

Points that are still under discussion and have not been resolved.

1. Is it true that you cannot forfeit your justification? Jesus said that if you do not forgive others then the Father wouldn't forgive you.

Jesus was speaking about temporal life; the life we live before death. If believers don't forgive others, they will be OUT OF FELLOWSHIP. As such, they will be out of God's will for their lives, lose blessings, and be miserable, being under God's discipline. Heb 12:11

2.. What is outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth because it seems the "suffering loss" would apply to the 5 foolish virgins who didn't fill their vessels with oil.

Loss of reward in eternity.

3. Jesus told the foolish virgins to go and buy oil from those that sell. But what happens if they don't?

Jesus didn't say. It was a parable, not an account of reality.