Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
they were not saved, thats why they never entered the promised land.
The "promised land" isn't salvation. It is eternal reward, which is earned. The Israelites had to work to take the land. That is not a picutre of salvation.

They ate the same spiritual food. but they did not respond to the food they ate..
What does this even mean? If they ate the food, they ate it. How do you not "respond to the food" you eat? Makes no sense.

Also, why did you ignore v.6 and 11? Paul said that the Exodus generation were "examples for us".

If that crowd weren't saved, and recall that NONE of the adults entered the promised land, INCLUDING Moses himself!!, except two, which were Joshua and Caleb, why would Paul tell us that unbelievers are examples for believers?

In what way would unbelievers be an example for believers? Can you think of any? It's like comparing apples to cauliflower.

No comparison at all.

If the adults weren't saved, then neither was Moses saved. He was prevented from entering the land as well. How do you explain that?
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
4,066
1,336
113
OK, so you think that out of the 2 million people who put blood on their doorposts and ate the Passover lamb, and passed through the Red Sea, and that followed the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fie, and drank the water and ate the manna, that 2 were saved and 1,999,998 were not.
I believe what the bible says

They these people did not believe. and God promised, they would not enter his rest.

Ps 95:
“Do not harden your hearts, as in the rebellion,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 When your fathers tested Me;
They tried Me, though they saw My work.

10 For forty years I was grieved with that generation,
And said, ‘It is a people who go astray in their hearts,
And they do not know My ways.’

11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”


people are not saved by works. they are saved by faith. Many people do works. yet have never been born again. Works do not save you.

Those people may have done a work. but they never had faith. they were a rebellious, unfaithful generation.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
No.

OSAS is saying that the people who had TRUE faith in God entered the promised land

those who did not. as shown by their continued lack of faith and sin. were never saved.
So Moses wasn't saved then. :eek:

I find it amazing you think people who sinned immediately after they were supposedly saved and continued to live in that sin was ever saved.
I find it amazing that anyone would claim that those who didn't enter the land weren't saved, which would include Moses.

Yet, Moses was at the transfiguration of Jesus. Of course he was saved. All the adults were saved, but some were mighty sinful.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
4,066
1,336
113
The "promised land" isn't salvation. It is eternal reward, which is earned. The Israelites had to work to take the land. That is not a picutre of salvation.
Um no

they wandered the wilderness for 40 years because they did not even trust God to do the work for them

What does this even mean? If they ate the food, they ate it. How do you not "respond to the food" you eat? Makes no sense.

Also, why did you ignore v.6 and 11? Paul said that the Exodus generation were "examples for us".

If that crowd weren't saved, and recall that NONE of the adults entered the promised land, INCLUDING Moses himself!!, except two, which were Joshua and Caleb, why would Paul tell us that unbelievers are examples for believers?

In what way would unbelievers be an example for believers? Can you think of any? It's like comparing apples to cauliflower.

No comparison at all.

If the adults weren't saved, then neither was Moses saved. He was prevented from entering the land as well. How do you explain that?
since when is a wicked and aduteroud generation who does not have faith saved??
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
4,066
1,336
113
So Moses wasn't saved then. :eek:
Moses did nto enter his rest, he was a wicked person?

I find it amazing that anyone would claim that those who didn't enter the land weren't saved, which would include Moses.

Yet, Moses was at the transfiguration of Jesus. Of course he was saved. All the adults were saved, but some were mighty sinful.
I never said moses was not saved did I..

Stop trying to assume what people say..
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
30,594
5,473
113
I believe what the bible says

They these people did not believe. and God promised, they would not enter his rest.
"These people" are you referring to those who did not enter the good land? That includes Moses.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Um no

they wandered the wilderness for 40 years because they did not even trust God to do the work for them
They wandered for 40 years as punishment for their lack of faith in God's promise of the land. Recall the 12 spies who went into the land to check it out. The "majority report" was that the land was too tough to take, and 'lets protect the children'. But Joshua and Caleb said the land was just as wonderful as the Lord said and that the Lord would fight for us.

Instead, the encampment spent the night crying their eyes out. Cry-babies! So God said ONLY those under 20 years of age will enter the land. Later, when Moses was told to "speak to the rock" he was so frustrated with the Israelites that he HIT the rock. From that one bit of disobedience, God told Moses that even he would not enter the land. And he didn't. But God let him see the land from the top of Mt Horeb.

The promised land is NOT about salvation. It's about eternal reward, which is earned. Taking the land required the Jews to fight the people in the land and conquer it. No way that is salvation.

since when is a wicked and aduteroud generation who does not have faith saved??
Well, the Exodus generation, for one.

Paul SAID they were saved, and used them an an EXAMPLE for believers. That wouldn't be possible if that generation, though adulterous, weren't saved.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Moses did nto enter his rest, he was a wicked person?

I never said moses was not saved did I..
From what you said about the adult generation, it also applies to Moses, who was PREVENTED from entering the land.

Stop trying to assume what people say..
Why do you give Moses a pass on your opinion when he suffered the same fate as the rest of the adults, minus Joshua and Caleb?

Heb 3-
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?
17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

v.19 applies to Moses just as much as to the rest.

Numbers 14:29 - In this wilderness your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me.

Numbers 20:12 - But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

Deut 32:51 - This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites. Moses' and Aaron's indictment!

Moses didn't enter the land because of his "unbelief", just as Heb 3:19 says.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
30,594
5,473
113
Paul SAID they were saved, and used them an an EXAMPLE for believers. That wouldn't be possible if that generation, though adulterous, weren't saved.
OK, so you are saying that "once saved always saved" can refer to those whose bodies were strewn about in the wilderness?


1Corinthians 10:5 Nevertheless, God was not well-pleased with most of them, for they were scattered along the ground in the wilderness [because their lack of self-control led to disobedience which led to death]. (Amplified version)
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
4,066
1,336
113
"These people" are you referring to those who did not enter the good land? That includes Moses.
was moses one of the people who that passage was spoken of?

Moses allowed God to work through him did he not? Where do you see Moses showed a lack of faith?
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
4,066
1,336
113
So you are referring to Moses
Nope

The people complained and yelled.

Moses parted the red sea

The people complained

Moses drew water from the rock

the people made carven images, Moses walked up the mountain TWICE and spoke with God

once again, you all scream of people who are saved then turn to sin, then here we have people that never stopped sinning and you claim they were saved.

Make up your minds!
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
4,066
1,336
113
They wandered for 40 years as punishment for their lack of faith in God's promise of the land. Recall the 12 spies who went into the land to check it out. The "majority report" was that the land was too tough to take, and 'lets protect the children'. But Joshua and Caleb said the land was just as wonderful as the Lord said and that the Lord would fight for us.

Instead, the encampment spent the night crying their eyes out. Cry-babies! So God said ONLY those under 20 years of age will enter the land. Later, when Moses was told to "speak to the rock" he was so frustrated with the Israelites that he HIT the rock. From that one bit of disobedience, God told Moses that even he would not enter the land. And he didn't. But God let him see the land from the top of Mt Horeb.

The promised land is NOT about salvation. It's about eternal reward, which is earned. Taking the land required the Jews to fight the people in the land and conquer it. No way that is salvation.


Well, the Exodus generation, for one.

Paul SAID they were saved, and used them an an EXAMPLE for believers. That wouldn't be possible if that generation, though adulterous, weren't saved.
yep they were saved.

they trusted God so much they complained, made graven images, and continually showed their lack of faith.

shaking my head!!
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
30,594
5,473
113
was moses one of the people who that passage was spoken of?

Moses allowed God to work through him did he not? Where do you see Moses showed a lack of faith?
OK, so you are now saying that entering the good land is not the only ones who were saved but if you allowed God to work through you then you also are saved? But that does not include those who put the blood on the doorpost? That does not include going through the Red Sea, or eating manna, or following the pillar of cloud or fire? OK, so what exactly does allowing God to work through you include?
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
4,066
1,336
113
From what you said about the adult generation, it also applies to Moses, who was PREVENTED from entering the land.


Why do you give Moses a pass on your opinion when he suffered the same fate as the rest of the adults, minus Joshua and Caleb?

Heb 3-
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?
17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?
19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

v.19 applies to Moses just as much as to the rest.

Numbers 14:29 - In this wilderness your bodies will fall—every one of you twenty years old or more who was counted in the census and who has grumbled against me.

Numbers 20:12 - But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

Deut 32:51 - This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites. Moses' and Aaron's indictment!

Moses didn't enter the land because of his "unbelief", just as Heb 3:19 says.

Moses entered Gods rest.. He was not so distraught in lack of faith he complained and complained at every turn. His rest was so sure in his faith in God he did many miracles..

He made 1 mistake..and because of it, did not enter the land..

You must not understand what it means to rest..
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
30,594
5,473
113
they were not saved, thats why they never entered the promised land.
I thought you were saying that not entering the promised land was evidence that you were not saved. But apparently that is not the case. So now I understand that if you did enter the promised land (Joshua and Caleb) then you were saved, but if not we aren't sure. We know that Moses was saved (because God worked through him) but do we know that anyone else was saved?

Anyway what I find fascinating with this teaching, which I have never heard before, is that OSAS may mean that you were saved way back when you put the blood on the doorpost but we don't know that for another 40 years after you have been tested and then enter the good land! Wow. I mean wow.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
4,066
1,336
113
OK, so you are now saying that entering the good land is not the only ones who were saved but if you allowed God to work through you then you also are saved? But that does not include those who put the blood on the doorpost? That does not include going through the Red Sea, or eating manna, or following the pillar of cloud or fire? OK, so what exactly does allowing God to work through you include?
putting blood on the post. going through the red sea, eating manna, etc etc is no different than being circumcised. Going to the temple. Praying, being baptized etc etc.

Your not saved because you have done a physical work.

Your saved because you HAD FAITH.,

Like Abraham, Moses had true saving faith.

the other people may have done all those works. but they lack saving faith. proven by the fact they showed a lack of faith in god every time something happened to them. All they wanted to do is go back to Egypt. they were mad Moses got them to leave to die.

Let me ask you.

is a person who says they believe in God. maybe said a sinners prayer, Goes to church, Prays in church. gives to the church, gets baptized. But from the time they so called prayed, never changed their personal lives. Continues to show a lack of faith in God when struggles happen. Does not change their sin habits, but continues in all sorts of sin, Gives excuses as to why they do not want to stop sin, Blames God for their troubles. etc etc.

are these people saved?
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
4,066
1,336
113
I thought you were saying that not entering the promised land was evidence that you were not saved. But apparently that is not the case. So now I understand that if you did enter the promised land (Joshua and Caleb) then you were saved, but if not we aren't sure. We know that Moses was saved (because God worked through him) but do we know that anyone else was saved?

Anyway what I find fascinating with this teaching, which I have never heard before, is that OSAS may mean that you were saved way back when you put the blood on the doorpost but we don't know that for another 40 years after you have been tested and then enter the good land! Wow. I mean wow.
I never said anyone was saved back when the put the blood on the doorpost. So why would you claim OSAS thinks this (I do nto speak for freegrace2, he has some serious issues with many of his beliefs)

moses did not enter as punishment for 1 sin (he strick the rock the second time)

the rest did not enter his rest.. because they continually lacked faith in God in everything they did. you can not compair the 2....