ONCE saved always saved!.

[newbirth]

One doesn’t need to be a follower of “Calvin” in order to have Biblical understanding. In fact, Calvin promotes quite the opposite – but that’s for another discussion, I suppose.

My previous post was tongue in cheek at the ridiculousnessof the analogy. Anyone who believes there is no eternal security in Christ, doesn’t truly understand the gospel or why Jesus came to begin with. If he saved us because we are sinners, then why would he turn around and revoke our salvation because we sin? He can’t take away salvation for the same reason he grants it.

he does not revoke salvation when one denies, reject or neglect him they reject salvation... and there goes your ES...
Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Hebrews 2:3
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

 

[newbirth]

Once again we litigate an argument based on an initial false premise. One who is saved can no longer come under condemnation. He is sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. Eternal life is eternal as is eternal death. By Gods grace we who are sinners are made the righteousness of Christ.

...without this[SUP]4 [/SUP]in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. the statement does not carry

I submit that when one becomes saved they are changed into a new creation in Christ. They are changed by the greatest gift ever given and given at the greatest cost. When we become saved we are then yoked together with Christ. The yoke of the devil is removed and we are free but we are yoked with the yoke of Christ which is easy and His burden for us is made light.

In the abstract we have the liberty to live a wanton life after we are saved but Gods Holy Spirit changes us to want to live holy and purely for His glory. Those who live a life of wanton sin and claim to be saved are only saved in their head and not in their hearts. You will know them because the Holy Spirit gives witness as to who are Christ's and who are not.

1 Corinthians 6:11-13
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.


We can only have the peace that passes understanding when we rest in Christ as our Savior. Those who sow the seeds of strife undermining the faith of the weak need to consider what they are doing to Christ's precious children.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Romans 6:13
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
1 Peter 2:15-17
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

 

[2Thewaters]

UNRIGHTEOUSNESS means ten commandment breaking
Nice to see a Bible believer Sabbath supporter hee, they are rare remnants

 

[2Thewaters]

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments(seventh day sabbath) of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Bookends]

Heb 10:26 is simply saying Christ is the only sacrifice for sins a person has. Therefore if a Christian turns his back on Christ becoming an apostate then he has no way for his sins to ever be atoned since he left Christ, the only sacrifice for his sins.
How will he ever get atonement for his willful sins WITHOUT Christ? How can he recover from this sinful, apostate state having no sacrifice for his sins?

So are you saying he can never repent and never come back again to faith/Christ?

 

[kennethcadwell]

We must remember though what our Lord said, " If you break one commandment, you are guilty of breaking all of them. "

UNRIGHTEOUSNESS means ten commandment breaking
Nice to see a Bible believer Sabbath supporter hee, they are rare remnants

 

[Bookends]

This may well be the only point of theology where we tend to disagree Sister..........

QUOTE: Please stop with the straw man that people who believe in eternal security are going to go out and do as they please. In fact, since I realized that salvation comes ONLY from God, I have been more eager to follow Christ and serve him with all my heart than I ever did back in those fearful days when I thought God would lose me at any second because of something I did!

God is sovereign and salvation is from God. He saves us and keeps us, and transforms us into his image! And one day we will roe and reign with him. Lots of verses to support this, if you need them!

END QUOTE.........

this is true to a point...........well pretty much all of it is true........... what you omit however is that you CHOOSE DAILY to do this.............and while it is certainly TRUTH that God will never let go of us............we CAN choose to let go of Him.......

Consider what Jesus taught as recorded in the 14th Chapter of Luke........


Luke 14:25) And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 .) If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 .) And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
28 .) For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
29 .) Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
30 .) Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.
31 .) Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
32 .) Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
33 .) So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
34 .) Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
35 .) It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

this is most often referred to as the "cost of discipleship" and it is.........however it ALSO reveals that there are those who having once entered in to the faith DO NOT HAVE SUFFICIENT to finish.............just as with the seeds sown on differing ground.............

Some food for thought.............God bless..............

Yaah, it hard to argue that! I see all the warnings written in the bible, said by Jesus, Paul and John. But we both know that not all who say they are Christians are Christians (some are just pew sitters, right?). Some are deceived. The question is can a Born Again Christian lose their salvation, then later regain it again. I hear all Armenians answer this question with a YES! But no where in the bible does it state we can be Born Again, lose our spiritual birth, and then be re-Born Again. So this is the problem you have with your theology.

Consider Hebrews 12, the author of this book tells us that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, to those who look unto Him. Those who belong to God He chastises or disciplines because of His love. But it is possible to be a partaker (of what I question? perhaps the church) and not receive or experience the Lord's chastising/discipline. These are considered illegitimate children and not sons. I must say, those who God made a new creation in Christ Jesus and whom GOD wrote His laws on their hearts and minds, are the ones who desire a new and better way, the narrow way. They new mingled spiritual with God; 1 Corinthians 6:17 "But one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him". Now I do acknowledge that a genuine Christian's walk at times could look bad, for we wrestle with our flesh and we aren't fully glorified yet. For if we were there would be no need for the Lord's chastising. This said, we shouldn't try and look to see if one is honestly saved or not, for only God knows the matters of the heart. We should be more concerned about our own discipleship and discipling others in being followers of Christ. Some will engage in that and some won't.

I certainly agree with you on this, we have eternal security of salvation in Christ Jesus. For if anyone rejects Him, He will reject them (2 Timothy 2:12).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We must remember though what our Lord said, " If you break one commandment, you are guilty of breaking all of them. "

true,

which is why the law condemns us 24/7. For we can hardly go a long time without breaking at least one command (love the lord you god with all your heart, and love your neighbor as self gets me every time (everytime I think of self I break these)

thus no one will be saved because the law condemns us, or eternal security is real, because no one earns it. it is based on Christ.

 

[Bookends]

Regarding losing our salvation: Salvation is offered us purely through Jesus’ death on the cross for us, as a gift of His grace. We, through Christ alone,from the moment we receive Him into our lives, become His child, declared righteous,forgiven, sanctified in His eyes, and have entered a relationship with Him which He intends to be permanent, with the promise of eternal life. This does not hinge on our personal holiness, or levels of faith, or sacrifices, or good works or religious acts.

Salvation through Jesus is purely God’s gift, received once by faith. At that moment we have crossed over from death into life, free from the condemnation of the law and placed under His grace, transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light, no longer enemies of God but His child, sealed with the Holy Spirit within us, He has become our God and we His child, and we are at peace with God, reconciled to Him.

The Bible clearly teaches that God is the judge, not us. Typically when someone asks this question it is in regards to someone else, not themselves. And, though I’ll give you what I see in Scripture, it is not our role to judge or condemn someone else. God has all the information regarding their heart, their sincerity in receiving Him or not, their sanctification and timeline for that, His plan for their life.


How Christians grow in their relationship with God and in their outward lifestyle varies a lot. I was deeply in love with God from the moment I received Him, but it was a couple of years before God straightened out some external behavior. So, to other Christians who didn’t know me, I could “appear” to not be a real Christian. God sanctifies us, changes us, on His time table and it would be a huge disservice to a Christian to bring their eternal security into question over behavior that we judge to be contrary to how a Christian should live.

Eternal life is a free gift. When someone receives Jesus Christ, wanting to be a follower of Him,Jesus enters their life and they come into a relationship with Him. If they seem to not grow or turn from Him, they certainly lose out on what God has for them in this life. They are not at all experiencing the benefits of knowing Christ. If they continue down this path, at some point there is reason to question whether they would go to heaven if they were to die at that point.

Hebrews 6:4-9 does raise caution about this. But again,God’s intention and desire is that they understand His love and His ability to work in their life. What is of utmost value to a Christian who is not walking with God, is to pray for him or her, to love that person, and as God leads you, to encourage them to see God’s heart and the value of walking with Him.I think this is far more beneficial for them than cautioning them about their eternal security. If they are not walking with God it is likely due to their perspective about this life and a short-sighted view of God.

I generally agree. But I think you should look at Hebrews 6 again. Isn't the author talking about us moving into maturity? Doesn't that seem to be the main point? Don't forget verses 1-3 are part of the passage. The things mentioned here are the elementary things pertaining to Christ, the new Christian and his life: repentance, faith, doctrine, resurrection, judgment, etc. Now once someone has experienced this, then went on to taste better things, the things pertaining to salvation; enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the the good Word, and the powers of the age to come, etc... AND have fallen away? from what? Salvation, fellowship, the faith? Does it matter what he has fallen away from? For it is impossible to renew them again to repentance. Why, because they already got the elementary principles of Christ, once you get that, you can't get it again. All that's left is to move onto greater things, maturity in Christ. Perhaps this is saying once you get saved, you can't get re-saved again even if you fall away for a time, because the blood and His grace is stronger then our weakness and ignorance. And if it were possible to get saved again, wouldn't that be what drags Christ's name through the mud, putting His name to shame, because in essence we saying is His blood wasn't sufficient the first time, in that we thought we could crucify him again? Saying, Oh the second time works? or the third or fourth?

 

[SeaBass]

So are you saying he can never repent and never come back again to faith/Christ?

He can never have atonement for his sins as long as he remains an apostate. If Christ is the only sacrifice for sins, then how can one in a state of apostasy ever get forgiveness for his sins?

One can come out of apostasy and return back to Christ, but he does not have Christ as a sacrifice for his sins as long as he remains in apostasy.

 

[SeaBass]

Yaah, it hard to argue that! I see all the warnings written in the bible, said by Jesus, Paul and John. But we both know that not all who say they are Christians are Christians (some are just pew sitters, right?). Some are deceived. The question is can a Born Again Christian lose their salvation, then later regain it again. I hear all Armenians answer this question with a YES! But no where in the bible does it state we can be Born Again, lose our spiritual birth, and then be re-Born Again. So this is the problem you have with your theology.

Consider Hebrews 12, the author of this book tells us that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, to those who look unto Him. Those who belong to God He chastises or disciplines because of His love. But it is possible to be a partaker (of what I question? perhaps the church) and not receive or experience the Lord's chastising/discipline. These are considered illegitimate children and not sons. I must say, those who God made a new creation in Christ Jesus and whom GOD wrote His laws on their hearts and minds, are the ones who desire a new and better way, the narrow way. They new mingled spiritual with God; 1 Corinthians 6:17 "But one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him". Now I do acknowledge that a genuine Christian's walk at times could look bad, for we wrestle with our flesh and we aren't fully glorified yet. For if we were there would be no need for the Lord's chastising. This said, we shouldn't try and look to see if one is honestly saved or not, for only God knows the matters of the heart. We should be more concerned about our own discipleship and discipling others in being followers of Christ. Some will engage in that and some won't.

I certainly agree with you on this, we have eternal security of salvation in Christ Jesus. For if anyone rejects Him, He will reject them (2 Timothy 2:12).

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

In the KJV, ASV and others the word "our" is in italics for it was added by translators when it should not have been.

“The word ‘our’ should be omitted” (The Epistle to the Hebrews, Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1952, p. 145). W.E. Vine.

In the original text, the word "faith" is preceded by the article "the"...Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith.

"The faith" refers the system of faith, body of information found throughout Christ's NT. As Jude said to "contend for the faith" Jude 1:3 and Paul preached "the faith" Gal 1:23, many were "obedient to the faith" Acts 6:7

So Christ is the author and finisher of the faith, the body of information in the NT, the gospel.

 

[newbirth]

So are you saying he can never repent and never come back again to faith/Christ?

The scripture does not say that ....one can repent.
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

but there is no guarantee outside Christ.....

[h=1][/h][SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Bookends]

The scripture does not say that ....one can repent.
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

but there is no guarantee outside Christ.....

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

9 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[newbirth]

9 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

it is a choice ....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

it is a choice ....

your right.

those who are truly saved of faith, will by choice. NEVER draw back to perdition.

if you think we will. you must not have faith in God. but yourself.

 

[newbirth]

your right.

those who are truly saved of faith, will by choice. NEVER draw back to perdition.

if you think we will. you must not have faith in God. but yourself.

there you go again We are saved by grace...you don't even know what you are debating

 

[Kerry]

OSAS is just another way to cope with sin. I am sinning but I have accepted Christ so therefore my sins don't count. Wrong.

 

[newbirth]

true,

which is why the law condemns us 24/7. For we can hardly go a long time without breaking at least one command (love the lord you god with all your heart, and love your neighbor as self gets me every time (everytime I think of self I break these)

thus no one will be saved because the law condemns us, or eternal security is real, because no one earns it. it is based on Christ.

You don't get it yet I see...
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

 

[p_rehbein]

Simple question: Why did Jesus speak of those who ENDURE?

(just wondering.........surely Jesus would know)

 

[SeaBass]

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition;

There are those that do choose to draw back into perdition.

(They cannot draw back unto perdition if they were always in perdition)