only christian go to heaven

[Bowman]

Of course it's not a meritless assertion. It is however unrealistic for me to think you even understand what I asserted. Many universalists regard those early church fathers as holding their ideals. Weather or not that is true is immaterial. The point being that a great many universalists are trinitarian.

Repeating your unreferenced assertion won't suddenly make it true.

Why you're hung up on this is beyond me, however the level of difficulty you're having understanding these basic points is quite incredible to me. I'd even posted what 1 Peter 3:9 says and why they use it several times before you asked.

Give us your understanding of the text then....it should be easy if you have already been over the material prior...yes?

Shocking as this may be to you a great deal of information is not available on the internet, I don't see why you continually appeal to it. If however you did want to learn about other Christians, such information is there for the searching.

You come across as a person who just googles the internet picking up random tid bits without being able to defend any of it.

This is what you continue to project.

 

[JGPS]

It's a generality, and you don't even know what the phrase means. If you honestly must have an internet reference then search the phrase, I have no doubt you'll find many of hits. But when you do so note that it's you thats using the internet for random tidbits, not me. I am here only to testify that such a group exists, I have met some and talked to them, and they hold such positions.

The reference is 2nd peter, not first. My understanding of the text is also immaterial here, as I don't hold the universalist position.

And searching for and providing references for you, doing your homework for you, would imply that we're having a debate. Such is not the case. I'm mentioning different points of view, and being disdainful of you for being extremely ignorant of them. Actually debating with you wouldn't be profitable, as you don't care to understand things outside of your point of view...

 

[Bowman]

It's a generality, and you don't even know what the phrase means. If you honestly must have an internet reference then search the phrase, I have no doubt you'll find many of hits. But when you do so note that it's you thats using the internet for random tidbits, not me. I am here only to testify that such a group exists, I have met some and talked to them, and they hold such positions.

The reference is 2nd peter, not first. My understanding of the text is also immaterial here, as I don't hold the universalist position.

And searching for and providing references for you, doing your homework for you, would imply that we're having a debate. Such is not the case. I'm mentioning different points of view, and being disdainful of you for being extremely ignorant of them. Actually debating with you wouldn't be profitable, as you don't care to understand things outside of your point of view...

Even in casual conversation, if you make an assertion then you should be able to back it up.

As it is, you can only continue to add copious amounts of excuses to buttress the fact that you cannot defend your meritless assertion.

 

[JGPS]

You really want a link for it, and you can't look it up yourself... Wow. How pathetic.

What exactly do you want backed up? Do you actually not believe that there are Christians that think everyone will be saved? What qualifies as proof to you? Are you the kind of pathetic individual that looks to google and Wikipedia for your facts? If so fine, this is so clean cut even the likes of Wikipedia can get it right.

Water is powerful wet stuff you know. Or do you need proof of that too?

Really though it shouldn't come to that in such a basic discussion. I came across this point of view reading Christian history, though I also know some people who hold this doctrine now too. Sorry if it's harsh but your lack of due diligence is incredible.

At very least, try THIS

 

[Bowman]

You really want a link for it, and you can't look it up yourself... Wow. How pathetic.

What exactly do you want backed up? Do you actually not believe that there are Christians that think everyone will be saved? What qualifies as proof to you? Are you the kind of pathetic individual that looks to google and Wikipedia for your facts? If so fine, this is so clean cut even the likes of Wikipedia can get it right.

Water is powerful wet stuff you know. Or do you need proof of that too?

Really though it shouldn't come to that in such a basic discussion. I came across this point of view reading Christian history, though I also know some people who hold this doctrine now too. Sorry if it's harsh but your lack of due diligence is incredible.

At very least, try THIS

So...you provide a link to a wiki article...an article, that anyone with an internet connection can edit?

How authoritative of a reference is that?

Put forth some effort...

 

[Batman007]

I guess there's still a little Navy Seal in me. It's my nature in my military mind to pinpoint the enemy. Bush declared a war on terror. That's like declaring a war against roadside bombs. Just as the bomb is a tool of war, so is terrorism. In WWII, had the war been against the buzz bombs, used by the Germans, rather than the Germans themselves, the enemy would not have been correctly defined. At any rate, the current enemy is not terrorism; terrorism is a tool. The enemy is the user of tool.

I know that not all Muslims are terrorist, but with few exceptions, all terrorist seem to be Muslims. And, if one reads the the Quran, and the teachings of most Islamic religious leaders, it is quite obvious that main stream Islam is the enemy of freedom and democracy world wide. Without correctly identifying the enemy, the war is lost.

I still think you have to have a quite strong faith, to believe in evolution. I mean, as complex as a living creatures are, it seems more likely that my Rolex watch evolved from a pile of rocks. There are those who say;"Well this took billions of years for life to evolve". But when the effects of entropy are added to the equation, evolution becomes quite impossible.

I have strong feelings against organized religions, as did Christ, and as I assume you. I do not attend any church. I've never found a perfect church, and if I did, it would no longer be perfect if I joined. And because I do not wish to share my infection, I do not attend church.

Well girl, I could go on all night. But, I got to get some work done.

Praying for you

"but with few exceptions, all terrorists seem to be Muslims"

A couple things. First off, 70 years ago the enemy was Japanese people. 100 years before that, Africans (this is different but relevant). 60 years ago, Cubans. All it took was a few people from that group to do something to piss of America, and they're labeled the enemy.

Mind you, 9/11 was more than "pissing off the enemy". I'm well-aware of that. But at the same time, the vast majority of Muslims aren't terrorists. Right now it seems that all terrorists are Muslims but soon that probably won't be the case. Look at Jews, who were the enemy of Germany in the 30's. I'm not saying this is like the Holocaust AT ALL, but labeling who is our "friend" and who is our "enemy" is a slippery slope that doesn't usually end well.

Correctly identifying the enemy isn't identifying an entire group of people and making them the enemy. The extremist group responsible for 9/11 is Al-Queda, not Muslims. I'm just clarifying this because you're misrepresenting 2.2 billion people.

Evolution isn't about believing. I don't base my life around it. I don't use it to find a moral compass, it doesn't provide a ground of being, and it is not my ultimate concern. I see evolution as an explanation most probable based on the evidence we currently have. That's not to say that there are no unanswered questions, because there certainly are. As science advances we'll get more and more answers. For now I have not seen anything that offers a better explanation for how we are here.

I think organized religion can become very corrupted very easily. I am uneasy with people telling others what to believe and how to act.

 

[CDavid]

"but with few exceptions, all terrorists seem to be Muslims"

A couple things. First off, 70 years ago the enemy was Japanese people. 100 years before that, Africans (this is different but relevant). 60 years ago, Cubans. All it took was a few people from that group to do something to piss of America, and they're labeled the enemy.

Mind you, 9/11 was more than "pissing off the enemy". I'm well-aware of that. But at the same time, the vast majority of Muslims aren't terrorists. Right now it seems that all terrorists are Muslims but soon that probably won't be the case. Look at Jews, who were the enemy of Germany in the 30's. I'm not saying this is like the Holocaust AT ALL, but labeling who is our "friend" and who is our "enemy" is a slippery slope that doesn't usually end well.

Correctly identifying the enemy isn't identifying an entire group of people and making them the enemy. The extremist group responsible for 9/11 is Al-Queda, not Muslims. I'm just clarifying this because you're misrepresenting 2.2 billion people.

Evolution isn't about believing. I don't base my life around it. I don't use it to find a moral compass, it doesn't provide a ground of being, and it is not my ultimate concern. I see evolution as an explanation most probable based on the evidence we currently have. That's not to say that there are no unanswered questions, because there certainly are. As science advances we'll get more and more answers. For now I have not seen anything that offers a better explanation for how we are here.

I think organized religion can become very corrupted very easily. I am uneasy with people telling others what to believe and how to act.

Well let's not argue about it. I'll never be politically correct on the issue of Islamic terrorism.
I'm not trying to force you or anyone to believe any particular way. The Catholic Church pert-near gave all Christians a bad rep by doing that in the PAST. I think what people need to do is put the past in the behind, like that song in the cartoon movie; "Lion King", judge religions on their current actions, and focus on the clear and present danger.
But I am interested in what you do believe. Do you believe that this life is all there is, and there's no hope at all. Will we just be all dressed up, with nowhere to go when we die? I think I prefer to have hope.
I don't have the faith in science that you have. Science was wrong about Ozone depletion, and we never here about acid rain anymore. In 1976 a science report in Time Magazine predicted an ice age. They have already had to rename the global warming myth. Because latest reports are that the earth began cooling 16 years ago, they now call it climate change. In reality they are a bunch of socialist scientist, bent on making the US a communist country, in the name of environmentalism.
Good science we can trust, but no science deserves our faith. Darwinism, global warming, climate change and other human endeavors to understand the mysteries of God are futile.
My, my. looks like bed time.
Praying for you

 

[tribesman]

...the vast majority of Muslims aren't terrorists...The extremist group responsible for 9/11 is Al-Queda, not Muslims.

Just a Q or two. What is your personal experience of islamists or being a non-muslim minority in a muslim country or a society where muslims are majority?

 

[Batman007]

Well let's not argue about it. I'll never be politically correct on the issue of Islamic terrorism.
I'm not trying to force you or anyone to believe any particular way. The Catholic Church pert-near gave all Christians a bad rep by doing that in the PAST. I think what people need to do is put the past in the behind, like that song in the cartoon movie; "Lion King", judge religions on their current actions, and focus on the clear and present danger.
But I am interested in what you do believe. Do you believe that this life is all there is, and there's no hope at all. Will we just be all dressed up, with nowhere to go when we die? I think I prefer to have hope.
I don't have the faith in science that you have. Science was wrong about Ozone depletion, and we never here about acid rain anymore. In 1976 a science report in Time Magazine predicted an ice age. They have already had to rename the global warming myth. Because latest reports are that the earth began cooling 16 years ago, they now call it climate change. In reality they are a bunch of socialist scientist, bent on making the US a communist country, in the name of environmentalism.
Good science we can trust, but no science deserves our faith. Darwinism, global warming, climate change and other human endeavors to understand the mysteries of God are futile.
My, my. looks like bed time.
Praying for you

Fair enough.

"There's not hope at all." Hope for what?

I don't know if this life is all there is. I don't have any idea. I'm guessing that when we die that's it, we're just dead, just like it was before we lived. However, I am interested in reincarnation. Before I was born I... well... I have no idea what anything was like. I have no memory of anything before the age of probably 2 or 3, at least no cognitive memory. All I know is I came to be, a living, thinking individual. I was born. I have thoughts, I am me, I am a person. If this happened once, whose to say it wouldn't happen again. If time continues when we aren't alive - which I'm not sure it does or doesn't - then we may come to be again sometime in the future.

I could buy into that. I'm not going to base my life around it but I could see it as being a possibility. However, I have no evidence that such a thing happens. I have no evidence that suggests anything happens after we die, so I assume that nothing happens.

People say that's scary, that they prefer believing that there is a heaven. Sure, heaven is a nice thought. It's comforting, it's safe. It makes saying goodbye to loved ones easier and it makes the idea of ones own demise easier. However, that doesn't make it real. Even if I would rather believe in a heaven, I just don't.

Here's the thing about science; it's not correct about everything. No scientist will say "science has never gotten anything wrong". Science is constantly disproving claims in order to further identify the truth. Getting things wrong is a huge part of science, that's how we learn more. We test and experiment and destroy hypothesis' all the time. There is no faith in science. Faith is "belief and trust in the existence, power, and benevolence of a supreme being." Science and religion are two very different things. That's why we have scientists who are religious.

So why does science get brought up all the time when talking to atheists? I'm not really sure. It's been conditioned that they're one in the same, but they're not. Science is a very broad field of study with tons of subgroups. Science does not equal evolution, which I think - correct me if I'm wrong - you're mixing up. Not all atheists buy into the theory of evolution and many religious people do. I do, but that's not why I'm an atheist.

And let me just say this, although you probably won't believe me: not all scientists are socialists, and even less want to make the US a communist country. In fact, I have never met a single scientist who was either of those things (although there are probably plenty of socialist scientists in socialist countries and communist scientists in communist countries, but that's any person anywhere you go). Science does not have a political or social agenda. SCIENTISTS might, individual scientists who have their opinion like anybody else, but science is not an entity. It does not think or feel or have an agenda. Science is a field of study used to gather evidence, observe, and discover laws. Whatever results come from that are up to the individual to interpret.

As far as what you said about global warming: if you're right and they found out it's a myth (which I don't think you're correct about but I haven't read up on it lately), do you know who would have discovered the science was wrong? Scientists.

 

[Batman007]

Just a Q or two. What is your personal experience of islamists or being a non-muslim minority in a muslim country or a society where muslims are majority?

I have no personal experience. Absolutely none.

I think I know where you're going with this. How could I possibly know?

 

[JGPS]

Bowman

You're completely lazy aren't you? You can't even specify which of my extremely basic assertions you disagree with. I'm not about to sit here trying to convince you that water is wet... You've got to be one of the most broken, messed up people I've talked to online. And that's saying a lot.

 

[Bowman]

Correctly identifying the enemy isn't identifying an entire group of people and making them the enemy.

Muslims deny the Son, and their scriptures...thus, they are the enemy.

The extremist group responsible for 9/11 is Al-Queda, not Muslims.

Al-Queda are Muslim.

I'm just clarifying this because you're misrepresenting 2.2 billion people.

Do you have a reference for that figure?

 

[Batman007]

Muslims deny the Son, and their scriptures...thus, they are the enemy.


Al-Queda are Muslim.


Do you have a reference for that figure?

The majority of the population of the world aren't Christian. Is everyone who doesn't believe as you do the enemy?

Let me put it this way:
Al-Queda equals Muslim
Muslim does not equal Al-Queda

Of course
Muslim Population Worldwide Data
Sorry I guess I should have said 2.1 billion

 

[JGPS]

The majority of the population of the world aren't Christian. Is everyone who doesn't believe as you do the enemy?

Let me put it this way:
Al-Queda equals Muslim
Muslim does not equal Al-Queda

Of course
Muslim Population Worldwide Data
Sorry I guess I should have said 2.1 billion

Batman, I think we might be being trolled. It should have occurred to me sooner, but I'm bad for giving people the benefit of the doubt.

Good luck if you keep talking to Bowman...

 

[Batman007]

Batman, I think we might be being trolled. It should have occurred to me sooner, but I'm bad for giving people the benefit of the doubt.

Good luck if you keep talking to Bowman...

I think you might be right. However, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I'll keep debating until he becomes rude or ridiculous with me, which hopefully won't happen.

 

[Bowman]

The majority of the population of the world aren't Christian.

Who, but you, asserted anything different...?

Is everyone who doesn't believe as you do the enemy?

The one who denies Biblical scripture is the enemy.

Let me put it this way:
Al-Queda equals Muslim
Muslim does not equal Al-Queda

Show us an Al-Queda member who is not a Muslim.

Of course
Muslim Population Worldwide Data
Sorry I guess I should have said 2.1 billion

Each source that you google gives a different number.....yes?

 

[Batman007]

Who, but you, asserted anything different...?

Uh, the statistics? Christians make up about 1/3 of the world population. That's the minority.

You're basically saying that most people on earth are your enemy, which is really pretty sad.

The one who denies Biblical scripture is the enemy.

Again, that's really sad.

Show us an Al-Queda member who is not a Muslim.

-_-

Each source that you google gives a different number.....yes?

Apparently. Ok, let's low-ball it and say it's only a billion (which it's significantly more, even according to the most conservative figures). That's still a ton of different individual people being lumped into the same nonsense category. That was my point.

 

[Bowman]

Uh, the statistics? Christians make up about 1/3 of the world population. That's the minority.

Again...who ever claimed different?

You're basically saying that most people on earth are your enemy, which is really pretty sad.

Again, that's really sad.

Sad....according to you....because you don't know your scriptures.

Apparently. Ok, let's low-ball it and say it's only a billion (which it's significantly more, even according to the most conservative figures). That's still a ton of different individual people being lumped into the same nonsense category. That was my point.

And...?

 

[Batman007]

Again...who ever claimed different?





Sad....according to you....because you don't know your scriptures.









And...?

Haha I think you are a troll. I have to say, bravo. I don't support trolls but I appreciate a good one, and you, sir or madam, are quite good at what you do.

 

[Bowman]

Haha I think you are a troll. I have to say, bravo. I don't support trolls but I appreciate a good one, and you, sir or madam, are quite good at what you do.

Come back when you can carry on a cognizant conversation...