Origin of Scripture.

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#21
Indeed the contents of the New Testament as we have it, were not put together until maybe 200 AD or so, out of all the writings then circulating.
That is incorrect. The Gospels and epistles were in circulation in all the churches before 70 AD. Indeed Peter was familiar with ALL of Paul's epistles and called them Scripture. Therefore they were already in circulation. The writings of John were complete by about 95 AD. So both the Old and New Testaments were in the churches between 100 and 200 AD. The Muratori Canon (c 200 AD) lists almost all the NT writings.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#23
Are you and "Jacobus" the same person? If not, I apologize. I overlooked the slight difference in user names when responding to you.
He chats like Garee
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#24
Christianity was being preached and practised before the New Testament was written down. Paul's Letters, 49 -60 AD; the Gospels 65-100AD, Acts in the 70s. Therefore the Church as described in Acts was constituted and forming community, hearing the word, and celebrating the breaking of bread before any reliance on formally written scripture, apart from the Old Testament, which was the scripture of the early church. Indeed the contents of the New Testament as we have it, were not put together until maybe 200 AD or so, out of all the writings then circulating. How does that work out, if the Bible is the fundamental authority for Christianity, when historically you have the Church first, accepting the Old Testament as sacred, and then creating the New Testament, and seeing in it the fulfilment of the Old. The Apostles couldn't be everywhere at once, so how could early Christians settle matters of doctrine without scripture? Apart from which, most of them were Jewish anyway, until the Pauline missions to the Gentiles got going, and problems of community between Jewish Christians and Gentiles came up. For example Matthew's Gospel is clearly written for Jewish Christians, whilst Luke has a Gentile audience in mind. Historically, it would seem that the church came first, before the Bible, which was written accepted and codified by the church. This gives me problems.
Hi, Jacobus.

There is ample evidence that the gospels were written earlier than the dates that you are attributing to them.

For example, it is generally accepted that the Apostle Paul died sometime in the mid-60's A.D., and, obviously, his epistles were written before he died.

Well, Paul actually quoted directly from Luke's gospel in his first epistle to Timothy when he wrote:

"Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward. " (I Timothy 5:17-18)

Paul offered two portions of "scripture", one from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament, as proof texts to support those "who labour in the word and doctrine".

His first proof text was taken from Deuteronomy 25:4, and his second proof text is an exact quote of Luke 10:7 in the Greek.

There, we read:

"And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. " (Luke 10:7)

Although these verses read slightly differently in the English translation, they read exactly the same in the underlying Greek of the New Testament, so this was a direct quote from Luke's gospel which must have been in circulation at the time of Paul's writing.

We know that Paul didn't just get this verse from "word of mouth" from Luke who was oftentimes his travelling companion because Paul called it "scripture".

The underlying Greek word which is here translated as "scripture" is "graphē ", and it means "writing":

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1124&t=KJV

If we understand that Luke's gospel was in written form prior to Paul's first epistle to Timothy, then we need to also seriously consider that some of the other gospels were already in circulation in written form as well.

There are at least three reasons to believe this:

1. Consider how Luke began his gospel.

We read:

"Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed. " (Luke 1:1-4)

Luke plainly stated that "many" had already "taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, even as they delivered them unto us" PRIOR TO his writing of his gospel. This leads us to believe that some of the other gospel accounts PRECEDED Luke's gospel account.

2. Paul certainly seemed to have knowledge of what was written in other gospel accounts.

For example, Paul said:

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. " (I Corinthians 13:2)

How did Paul know about faith that could remove mountains?

Did he read about it in either Matthew's or Mark's gospel?

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. " (Matthew 21:21)

"For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. " (Mark 11:23)

3. Luke also wrote the book of Acts, and Paul was still alive at the time of his writing.

Why is this significant?

Well, look how Luke began this writing:

"The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. " (Acts 1:1-4)

"The former treatise" of which Luke spoke was his gospel account.

What does this tell us?

Well, if Paul was still alive at the time of Luke's second writing, then Luke's "former treatise" or gospel was also definitely written before Paul died sometime in the mid-60's A.D.

Hopefully, you can see that at least some of the gospel accounts truly were written earlier than the dates you originally ascribed to them

I hope that this info helps.