OSAS doctrine denies the faith

flob · May 23, 2015

I'd prefer OBAB----------once born, always born------grandpa. As being more precise than the word 'saved.'

Someone above asked his questions:

Wasn't Adam born of God?

Now Adam is. "The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...according to His great mercy
has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead"
1 Pet 1:3
No Adam wasn't born of the Spirit when he was created. Luke 3:38 refers to creation, not to
being joined to God as one spirit (1 Cor 6:17). All human beings are children of God in the sense
of creation (Acts 17:29). But God's purpose is more than that. God wants actual sons. And sonship. By His Spirit.
In our spirit. And spreading to the rest of our being. Until we're wholly mingled with God, in Christ,
as the Spirit, in our spirit, and soul, and body, for eternity, comprising the New Jerusalem, and the Body
(and Wife) of the Lamb. Adam and Even had the chance to receive God, organically, by eating of Him
as the tree of life. But they did not do that. And consequently could not without the New Testament
(Jn 7:37-39; 6:56-57; Heb 11:40; 1 Pet 1:3; etc).

Do you believe you can be "born of God" and "serve the devil"?

Well, a believer is born of God.............in his or her human spirit. Jn 3:6. Rom 8:16.
1 Cor 6:17; 2 Tim 4:22. Our flesh, though influencable by our spirit
("By the Spirit, put to death the practices of the body) still is mingled with Satan,
in the form of Sin. Our sinful nature. The Lord does not save us from sin in the sense
of eradicating our sinful nature from us. If we believers say that we have no sin, we lie.
Our ongoing salvation, our growth in and into Christ, our sanctification and transformation
involves this very conflict, to bring us into full union and mingling with Christ Jesus.
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus frees us from the law of sin and of death.
This involves our active pursuit and enjoyment of the Lord. And it is not a once-for-all
eradication of sin from our body. Not until the process is complete, which happens,
physically, in resurrection. The "out-resurrection" from the dead Paul spoke of in Philippians.
The resurrection of transfiguration. Or, for a minority of believers, the transfiguration of
pre-tribulation rapture. Rv 14:1-5; Lk 21:36; Rv 3:10.
In sum, children of God not only 'can serve the devil,' we can 'be the devil' when our mind
is set on our flesh. "The mind set on the flesh is death, the mind set on the spirit is life and peace."
Is that your experience?

Do you believe in children of God who DO unrighteousness?

1 Jn 3:9-10 refers to habitually practicing sin. Not merely to sinning at times.
Do I believe that you are sinless, or that you no more do unrighteousness at all?
No.

Have you ever read [1 jn 5:2-4]?

Yes.

Is engaging in sin overcoming to you? is that what you believe?

No. Sin is anti-Christ. Deeper than that, not following Christ is anti-Christ.
Do believers into Christ sin sometimes? Both the same apostle and letter, 1 John,
and my experience and observation prove to me that regenerated children of God
sometimes sin. Which they (we) need to confess to Christ for forgiveness and restoration
of fellowship and intimacy with Him. And which we need to overcome by the life of Christ
(Christ Himself) living inside of us, to be matured and complete as Christians, and to enjoy
Him as His co-kings for the 1000 year Kingdom of Christ on earth Reward.

I have a question for that dear poster:
Have you received the Lord Jesus?

Jason0047 · May 23, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

It's a common basic teaching that "all" does not always mean "all" in the Scriptures.

What verse actually clarifies that point for you? Scripture paints a different picture when I read it. Romans 6:23 says, the wages of sin is death. This is talking about the "Second Death", i.e. the Lake of Fire (Which is contrasted with "everlasting life."). For if we willfully sin there remains no more sacrifice for sins. How many sins did Adam and Eve need to commit to place all of mankind under sin and death? It only took one sin. It is selfish and wrong for a person to take their own life. There is nothing Godly about it. So God cannot and will not condone it or let it slide. For if He did let such an evil slide, then how does that reflect back upon the Lord? Why not let other kinds of evils slide? Why do you think suicide is not sinful in some cases? Do you think the selfishness of wanting to be your own god just goes away? That is what a person is doing. They are being their own god when they take their life. God's Word says if you destroy the temple he will destroy you. God cannot break His own Word. I am sorry, my friend. It's just not possible. Maybe this is a deep personal issue for you and you just cannot see it. I don't know. But whatever the case may be, I know what Scripture says on this matter plainly. Suicide is a sin (and it leads people to Hell and not Heaven). For if you were to promote the idea that it may be okay to commit suicide, and someone takes your suggestion that it is okay (under certain circumstances), then you are going to have to answer to God for giving a person the wrong advice (if they indeed acted upon it and did not end up in Heaven).

See, if God were to let one person slide in doing evil, then he would have to let all sins slide. For sinning a little versus sinning a lot does not make the evil any less non existent. Evil is still evil whether you do a little bit of evil or a lot of evil. God cannot condone evil under any cirucmstance because He is Holy, just, and good.

As for Moses, David, and Paul. These were all sins that they repented of. Moses did not stay as a murderer. David did not continue to murder and commit adultery up until the point of his death. Paul did not continue to persecute Christians when he was converted. Paul even said he could be disqualified or cast away himself. If you were to read the next chapter after these words from Paul, you would see it is all too clear that sin can and does indeed separate all people from God. For God is not a respecter of persons.

Jason0047 · May 24, 2015

Jason0047 said:

It's a common basic teaching that "all" does not always mean "all" in the Scriptures.

What verse actually clarifies that point for you? Scripture paints a different picture when I read it. Romans 6:23 says, the wages of sin is death. This is talking about the "Second Death", i.e. the Lake of Fire (Which is contrasted with "everlasting life."). For if we willfully sin there remains no more sacrifice for sins. How many sins did Adam and Eve need to commit to place all of mankind under sin and death? It only took one sin. It is selfish and wrong for a person to take their own life. There is nothing Godly about it. So God cannot and will not condone it or let it slide. For if He did let such an evil slide, then how does that reflect back upon the Lord? Why not let other kinds of evils slide? Why do you think suicide is not sinful in some cases? Do you think the selfishness of wanting to be your own god just goes away? That is what a person is doing. They are being their own god when they take their life. God's Word says if you destroy the temple he will destroy you. God cannot break His own Word. I am sorry, my friend. It's just not possible. Maybe this is a deep personal issue for you and you just cannot see it. I don't know. But whatever the case may be, I know what Scripture says on this matter plainly. Suicide is a sin (and it leads people to Hell and not Heaven). For if you were to promote the idea that it may be okay to commit suicide, and someone takes your suggestion that it is okay (under certain circumstances), then you are going to have to answer to God for giving a person the wrong advice (if they indeed acted upon it and did not end up in Heaven).

See, if God were to let one person slide in doing evil, then he would have to let all sins slide. For sinning a little versus sinning a lot does not make the evil any less non existent. Evil is still evil whether you do a little bit of evil or a lot of evil. God cannot condone evil under any cirucmstance because He is Holy, just, and good.

As for Moses, David, and Paul. These were all sins that they repented of. Moses did not stay as a murderer. David did not continue to murder and commit adultery up until the point of his death. Paul did not continue to persecute Christians when he was converted. Paul even said he could be disqualified or cast away himself. If you were to read the next chapter after these words from Paul, you would see it is all too clear that sin can and does indeed separate all people from God. For God is not a respecter of persons.

Here is a good article on how "all does not always mean "all" in the Scriptures.

ALL doesn’t ALWAYS mean ALL in the Bible, but we don’t get to choose when it doesn’t | Bjorkbloggen

Jason0047 · May 24, 2015

sparkman said:

Here is the origin and some history of the false teaching known as Eternal Security.

A historical examination of Eternal Security.

Side Note:

Again, I do know of the guy that you are talking about.

kennethcadwell · May 24, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Nice try on the whole all does not mean all in the scriptures, as I know this all to well.
However it does not work in this case as the Lord Jesus clearly says all other sins and blasphemies except for the one is unforgivable. So you can try to overlook that fact, but the Lord is showing clear understanding that no matter what sin or blasphemy a person does as long as it is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit it will be forgiven if repented of.

Second the scriptures that shows only those who continue to do those things will not be forgiven, and also those who do not repent of them will not be forgiven are all over the NT. It would take to long to post them all, but I will post a few;

Galatians 5:21
envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
(The Greek tense used here that the KJV translates, do such things, is a continuation verb meaning to do them without repentance.)

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

These are only a few, but both of them show that if one continues to keep sinning willfully without repentance then they will not be forgiven. Nothing in the bible once again takes and makes other sins except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit unforgivable, and to continue to think that way means you make decisions on anothers life that the bible says is only to be left to the Lord to decide. We are not called to judge others on who should get eternal life and who will not, because we do not know their heart, only God knows that.

Yes anybody who defiles the temple of God will be destroyed, but once again you take that to far and take and say things that can be repented of can't be. Also defiling the temple is willfully sinning which is without repentance. Once again a form of repentance is asking for forgiveness of the wrong that one has done, and what does some in suicide cases do? They either write a letter asking for forgiveness or they ask for it to the Lord right before committing the act.
Nobody is saying let certain kinds of evil slide, but what we do not do like you do, is we are not lead in that false teaching that it can't be repented of.

Last of all you said it right there in that last statement that Moses, David, and Paul repented of those sins..........

You are the one who said you disagreed with me when I made the statement of a person who committed a murder in 1985 and then later repented of it will be in heaven just like you and me. You said you strongly disagree with that, but now I showed you three people from the bible guilty of the sin of murder. You then now changed your stance and said yes they will be because they repented.

The same standard applies to all sins except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, if they are repented/confessed of they will be forgiven. You keep wanting to take the saving process out of the hands of the Lord and place it in your own by telling others certain sins are not forgivable when the Lord said they are if repented of.................

sparkman · May 24, 2015

SINLESS PERFECTIONISM

Sinless perfectionism people teach that once a person is saved, they will no longer sin.

There are two problems with sinless perfectionism.The first problem is that those who believe it either radically overestimate their level of moral performance, or they seriously underestimate the demands of God’s law.

The problem with sinless perfectionists is that they tend to claim that if you sin after salvation, you will lose your salvation.If a young believer is exposed to sinless perfectionists, it tends to make them doubt their salvation, unless they are well grounded in biblical truth.

Sinless perfectionism is sometimes associated with Pelagianism, Finneyism or Moral Government Theology.Adherents to these bad theological systems include Pelagius, Charles Finney, Gordon Olson, Winkey Pratney, Harry Conn, Jed Smock and Jesse Morrell.These bad theological systems deny the core evangelical doctrines of original sin, moral inability, imputed righteousness, justification by faith alone and penal substitutionary atonement.They abhor any concept of imputation, whether it is Adam’s sin to us, or Christ’s righteousness to us.To become righteous in God’s sight, you must become righteous in terms of behavior.Imputation of Christ’s righteousness to us is a “legal fiction”, similar to the Roman Catholic view.

Some individuals believe that Christians can sin, but they seem to think that talking about the reality that Christians can sin causes them to sin.

I John 1:8-9 states “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Sinless perfectionists will quite often make the claim that these verses are talking about a person prior to salvation, but I John is addressed to a church and uses the pronoun “we” rather than “them”.These verses plainly say that if we claim we have no sin, we are either self-deceived or lying.

Romans 7:18-20 states “18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.”

Sinless perfectionists, again, will often claim this verse is talking about someone before salvation.This position cannot be held, though.Paul, in these verses, apparently wanted to do good, but he resisted doing good at times.The fact that he wanted to do well means that he was a saved person.Romans 8:7-9states “7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. “.If Paul was talking about his pre-conversion state, he would not be wanted to do the will of God.

Paul called himself the “chief of sinners”in I Tim 1:15.

I Tim 1:15 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost

Additional evidence which refutes the sinless perfectionist’s claims include the following incidences where saints committed sins:

·Abraham lied when he said Sarai was his sister rather than wife
·Noah got drunk after the Flood
·David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed
·Samson engaged in extramarital sex
·Peter denied Christ three times, and committed the sin of favoritism (Gal 2:11-13)
·The Corinthian man was involved in sexual activity with his stepmother
·The Corinthian congregation committed sin in ignoring the activity between the man and his wife

RC Sproul wrote a good article on this subject.It is available here:
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/heresy-perfectionism/

Related remarks:

John 1: 5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

In regards to these verses, what does it mean to walk in darkness, and what does it mean to walk in light?

Walking in light means to be a believer. It also conveys a sense of transparency and openness to acknowledging one's sins...living before God openly and being willing to acknowledge one's sins. It implies being responsive to the new nature which we receive from God at conversion through the process of regeneration. All real Christians have this new nature, and want to obey and please God.

Walking in darkness means to be an unbeliever, with no concern for obedience, and dwelling in spiritual darkness and deception.

As verse 8 clearly states, if we claim not to have sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. This means that walking in light in verse 7 CANNOT be referring to a state of sinlessness, otherwise we would have a contradiction. Verse 7 clearly refers to being a believer and in a state of transparency or willingness to acknowledge our sin, and being responsive to the new nature.

Also, compare verse 6 with verse 10. Walking in darkness means to say that we have no sin. We are living in self deception.

Verse 9 teaches that when we sin, we need to confess it, and ask forgiveness, and God will cleanse us from it.

These verses describe the process of progressive sanctification.

My pastor when I was first saved described it to me this way. Imagine being in a totally dark room with very dense blinds on the windows. When the Holy Spirit first comes into our lives, he illuminates the darkness of our souls and shows us a little of our sin. It would be like tweaking the blinds open a bit, and a sliver of light falls on the floor and we see some of the dirtiness on the carpet. We clean that up. He tweaks the blinds a little more and shows us more of our sins. We clean that up. He progressively does that throughout our lives.

If he simply threw the blinds open and revealed all of our sin to us at once, there would be no way that we could deal with it all. God is merciful and cleanses us progressively. We never come to a point where we are a finished work until the resurrection.

Am I saying that God does not cleanse us of some pretty major sins when we first come to Christ? No, I am not. God does liberate us from some powerful sins when we are first saved, and it is a mighty work. I have seen drug addicts, alcoholics, smokers, sexually immoral people, and others cleansed of powerful sins seemingly instantaneously at conversion. Yet, these individuals would never claim to be fully delivered from every sin in their lives.

Before I am accused of this, no, I do not think sin is OK.

Romans 6: 1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

It is not ok to sin after salvation, but I John 1 clearly teaches that we do, and to deny the existence of this sin circumvents the process of being cleansed of it. The process is confessing, being forgiven, and being cleansed by God.

Viewing these verses correctly is very important, as self righteous people who claim sinlessness cause Christians who are living transparently and in the light to question their salvation. These conscientious Christians, who realize their brokenness, are negatively impacted by this sort of bad teaching. They may become discouraged, consider it hopeless and quit confessing their sins and being cleansed for a period of time until God shows them the truth. In addition, the supposedly sinless individuals themselves are living in denial of their brokenness, may be unsaved, and if saved, are certainly circumventing the very process that God has designed for cleansing.

Well, this is my view of those Scriptures. We are never sinless short of glorification and never exhaust our continual need for our Savior. Our realization of our need for spiritual cleansing is what drives us to a closer relationship with Jesus Christ. If we claim we are sinless, and have no need of him, we simply circumvent the entire process.

In addition, the standard for holiness is God, and not ourselves. The sinless perfectionist is forced to pull down the standard so that he can meet it. I would propose that the standard is himself, and not God's holiness. A real Christian would never assert that he meets that standard. If a real Christian caught a glimpse of his own sinfulness, he would be like the prophet Isaiah in in chapter 6, and would be horrified of it

sparkman · May 24, 2015

Do you agree with Finney's positions which included denying imputed righteousness, justification by faith alone, original sin, and penal substitutionary atonement? I am quite interested as a person in such a position would deny eternal security by default. His theology has infested many in the USA.

Jason0047 said:

sparkman · May 24, 2015

OK..now I know where you're getting your bad theology from.

The woman who runs this site is a Pelagian. She also has a facebook group where other Pelagians hang out. She bans anyone with sound theology who can challenge their fallacious views.

She promotes heretics like Jed Smock, Jesse Morrell and Kerrigan Skelly. She is a promoter of Moral Government Theology. Heretics like Gordon Olson, Winkey Pratney and Harry Conn taught this stuff.

It's basically a modification of Charles Finney's theology.

The teachings of these sorts of people isn't even Arminian. Arminians are evangelical. Arminians don't deny core truths such as original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness. Pelagian-Finneyists and plain Pelagians do. T

They also typically hold an open theist view of God that reduces him down to the level of a man who makes mistakes and changes his mind because of them. They ignore the fact that the Bible's language is anthropomorphic in some places to help us to relate to Him.

Like I said, this is like drinking from the toilet bowl..not good theology at all. The bad thing is that Jesse Morrell and Jed Smock, who hold these theologies, are exposing our young people on campuses to this sort of crap.

Jason0047 said:

sparkman · May 24, 2015

I addressed this topic in a separate post on sinless perfectionism above.

So, would you describe yourself as a Pelagian?

I am not sure why you declare Charles Finney a heretic as your theology is right in line with his in terms of major points.

By the way, to say that Finney believed in TULIP is crazy. Finney despised Reformed Theology. His theology was very Pelagian as yours is too.

Skinski7 said:

1Joh 1:8 is addressing coming clean with God. John is not alluding to an ongoing state of wickedness which never stops.

John wrote this...

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

If 1Joh 1:8-9 is teaching that "sin is always present in me" then it is a denial of the "our sins being taken away" (1Joh 3:5).

John wrote...

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin if we walk in the light as He is in the light. We are washed clean, not washed and left dirty as you proclaim. Look at this passage...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

We are to draw near God via the blood of Jesus with a TRUE HEART in full assurance having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. This cleansing does not leave in a defiled state.

To use 1Joh 1:8-9 as a proof text of ongoing wickedness with the necessary ongoing cleansing is a denial of the Gospel. It is asserting that the blood does not really clean you but leaves you in a defiled state where you keep sinning. Think about that. That is what you believe.

People like you profess to be a Christian and yet argue in favour of being inwardly filthy. You think such an admission is a manifestation of humbleness. Have you no consciousness of the scale of delusion you must be under to proclaim such things?

Look at what Peter wrote to some babes in Christ....

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Do you ever testify that your soul has been purified through obedience to the truth whereby you can love one another fervently with a pure heart for you are born again of the incorruptible seed? I bet you NEVER testify of such a thing.

Instead you testify an ongoing defiled state of sin.

Would you care to explain that discrepancy between what you appear to believe and the testimony of scripture?

1 John 1:8-9 is about this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

We don't come to God seeking mercy and hide our sin. We come clean about our rebellion, what we have done, and it is in a broken state we seek the mercy of God. That is what John is asserting.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If we claim to have never sinned then we make him a liar and his word is not in us. Verse 8 is about sin to our account, not ongoing wickedness.

Please don't be deceived. Be diligent.

Remember the religious system in the days of Isaiah, Jeremiah and even Jesus was totally deceived and corrupted. The whole thing was a farce.

Why would we expect it to be any different today?

Jason0047 · May 24, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

Notice what the passage says. Read it again. All sin and BLASPHEMY. It then say the blasphemy of.... This lets us know that it is speaking of the sin of blasphemy. It's the context. It's not talking about other kinds of sins. So no. You are wrong. We know even in Hebrews 6:4-6 it is talking about the sin of apostasy.

Jesus does not say all sins except for the one. You are making Jesus say that when He didn't actually say that. Stop adding to what He said.

And.... the Scriptures show just one sin can separate you from God, too. Point in case... Adam and Eve. Big example there that you are ignoring. For did they keep eating of the tree for it to be a sin or for it to cause a separation? No. That's what your not understanding here.

Jesus said beware of the Scribes. Meaning, I do not make James Strong and his buddies my source of authority for understanding the Bible. Also, the King James does not say "practice" in that verse. That was a corruption added later by other popular Modern Versions that seek to change the Word of God ever so subtly.

Yes, this is talking about one sin and not many. I do not see this verse saying.... if we willfully sin a lot ongoingly as a way of life. Do you?

Please do not take this the wrong way. But did you receive this teaching from your church? Was their a personal experience in your life involving suicide?

Since when was believing God's Word at face value by faith taking it too far? I just believe that verse. You cannot believe that verse in this instance because of some other wrong teaching that you have acquired somehow. Suicide is a sin and it will lead a person to Hell and not Heaven. Do not deceive other people into thinking otherwise.

The only way someone can be forgiven of suicide is if they come back to life after they are dead so as to repent of it. I have already said this before in our discussions. But most do not always come back after they kill themselves.

I will address the rest of your post later. I have to run.

mailmandan · May 24, 2015

Jason0047 said:

So you are just going to ignore all the contrasts and comparisons that I made in those verses that I quoted in post #688 and create a third camp of believers who walk in darkness and end up being cast into our darkness? You are starting to sound like a fear monger.

So you believe that "children of the kingdom" refers to children of God in Matthew 8:12? Being "children/subjects of the kingdom" did not mean they were saved. This term refers to the natural claim to which the kingdom belongs, to national Israel. The Jews, who were subjects of the kingdom, and commonwealth of Israel. So these "children of the kingdom" (a Semitic term for national Israel), will lose their claim to the kingdom unless they follow the centurion's example of faith.

This is descriptive of lost unbelievers, not saved believers. You keep trying to create a third camp of lost believers.

What certain group of believers? There are only two camps of people, not three. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; (camp 1) but he who does not believe is condemned already, (camp 2) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Where is camp 3?

Where do you find this under the New Covenant? Ezekiel 18:29 - Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair? Ezekiel 33:13, When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES.

As James Fawcett Brown point out - righteous--one apparently such; as in Matthew 9:13, "I came not to call the righteous," that is, those who fancy themselves righteous. First please notice the words "his righteousness" meaning that the "righteous" turns from his righteousness. That is his OWN righteousness.

valiant · May 24, 2015

If Jesus believed in sinless perfectionism I wonder why He taught His disciples and us to pray regularly 'forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us'?

It appears that He KNEW that His disciples would sin regularly.

sparkman · May 24, 2015

gb9 said:

Yes...skinski in particular is promoting the Pelagian teachings of Mike DeSario. There are a lot of these Pelagian teachers around...including Jesse Morrell and Kerrigan Skelly. All of these guys are Youtube giants in their own eyes.

Any time you see denial of these doctrines, suspect you are dealing with Pelagian-Finneyists or Moral Government Theology proponents: original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness, penal substitutionary atonement and moral inability. In addition, you will find often that they believe in sinless perfectionism and open theism.

Open theism is a really bad view of God that makes him into a being that does not have the attributes of deity including omniscience, omnipotence, and exhaustive foreknowledge.

Other names associated with these heresies are Gordon Olson, Harry Conn, and Winkey Pratney. Jed Smock also teaches similar theology.

By the way Mike Desario teaches that those who hold the doctrine of eternal security are unsaved and somehow associates them with child molesters. He also apparently took God's name in vain on a call with Hank Hanegraaff although he's removed that video from his youtube channel so I can't verify it.

Jason0047 · May 24, 2015

sparkman said:

OK..now I know where you're getting your bad theology from.

The woman who runs this site is a Pelagian. She also has a facebook group where other Pelagians hang out. She bans anyone with sound theology who can challenge their fallacious views.

She promotes heretics like Jed Smock, Jesse Morrell and Kerrigan Skelly. She is a promoter of Moral Government Theology. Heretics like Gordon Olson, Winkey Pratney and Harry Conn taught this stuff.

It's basically a modification of Charles Finney's theology.

The teachings of these sorts of people isn't even Arminian. Arminians are evangelical. Arminians don't deny core truths such as original sin, justification by faith alone, imputed righteousness. Pelagian-Finneyists and plain Pelagians do. T

They also typically hold an open theist view of God that reduces him down to the level of a man who makes mistakes and changes his mind because of them. They ignore the fact that the Bible's language is anthropomorphic in some places to help us to relate to Him.

Like I said, this is like drinking from the toilet bowl..not good theology at all. The bad thing is that Jesse Morrell and Jed Smock, who hold these theologies, are exposing our young people on campuses to this sort of crap.

Wrong again. I told you. I did not get any of my teaching from men. But by the Spirit and His Word. For we are to study to show ourselves approved unto God. So I believe and practice 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

Grandpa · May 24, 2015

flob said:

I suppose I am assuming they are the same.

Maybe I assumed too much.

Are people trying to separate being saved from being born again? How can you?

Or is that what you are saying to try and help out the people who don't believe, to help them see?

sparkman · May 24, 2015

Jason0047 said:

So, you don't know Annika at all?

Grandpa · May 24, 2015

valiant said:

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That is the standard. Its a really high standard.

Does anyone argue that being born again causes us to attain that standard? No, I've never seen it. Probably, like John says, the truth is not in them if they do.

Perhaps we are a lot closer to that standard after being born again but I would never state that I had attained it.

Unless I was absolutely joking. Yeah, its lonely up here, just me and God. No, I probably wouldn't even joke about something like that.

BradC · May 24, 2015

The standard for the believer is GRACE and will always be GRACE until he puts on immortality and incorruption. Anytime we are instructed to 'sin not' or 'put off the old man and your former lusts', it is done by faith through the standard GRACE. GRACE saves us, keeps us, restores us, establishes our heart and is multiplied to us. When sin abounds GRACE does much more abound. We are to continually grow in GRACE. GRACE is our standard and when we face a mountain of issues that are overwhelming we cry out to that mountain, GRACE, GRACE! We overcome in our weakness through the sufficiency of GRACE. Repentance and confession of sin is not the standard that we have been given by God, GRACE is that standard and we have access to the manifold GRACE of God only by faith. For anyone to think that the same GRACE that saves us can't keep us, is someone that does not know the God of ALL GRACE.

Jason0047 · May 24, 2015

Look. People can say whatever they like and or twist the Word of God however they like. A man who preaches a prosperity gospel can twist the Bible and say others are wrong for not believing as he does. The difference is can a person ignore their moral compass God gave them? Can a person ignore the fact that they cannot make a real world example out of OSAS? Then to top it off, there are all the warnings in the Bible that we are not to sin. For take a step back and actually think about what actually means to be good or evil. Can you honestly say you have the true peace and love in your heart from God if you condone or allow for a little bit of sin to take place in your life? Check the fruit in your life. Examine whether or not you are in Christ (2 Corinthians 13:5). Do you tend to hate others with your words and deeds? Again, I relate people being addicted to their sin as if they are addicted to alcoholism. For they are both wrong addictions and both are evil. So folks here are basically saying they are not alcoholics but yet they can still drink and or still be a slave to the demon that is within their bottle. However, Jesus said if you sin, you are slave to sin. Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. So choose this day whom ye will serve.

sparkman · May 24, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Look. People can say whatever they like and or twist the Word of God however they like. A man who preaches a prosperity gospel can twist the Bible and say others are wrong for not believing as he does. The difference is can a person ignore their moral compass God gave them? Can a person ignore the fact that they cannot make a real world example out of OSAS? Then to top it off, there are all the warnings in the Bible that we are not to sin. For take a step back and actually think about what actually means to be good or evil. Can you honestly say you have the true peace and love in your heart from God if you condone or allow for a little bit of sin to take place in your life? Check the fruit in your life. Examine whether or not you are in Christ (2 Corinthians 13:5). Do you tend to hate others with your words and deeds? Again, I relate people being addicted to their sin as if they are addicted to alcoholism. For they are both wrong addictions and both are evil. So folks here are basically saying they are not alcoholics but yet they can still drink and or still be a slave to the demon that is within their bottle. However, Jesus said if you sin, you are slave to sin. Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. So choose this day whom ye will serve.

There's no such thing as a sinless Christian. Sin should not characterize a Christian's life, though. Those who claim to be sinless are liars or deceived per I John 1.

OSAS doctrine denies the faith

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