OSAS doctrine denies the faith

[gb9]

scott ( skinski) and Jason: you guys have been exposed. now we all know the source of the false doctrine you harp on. give it up, repent and believe the REAL Gospel of the REAL Jesus.

 

[Sirk]

It's never wrong to preach the truth of God's Word and stand up for it repeatedly. It's never wrong to stand up repeatedly in doing that which is right and good. It's never wrong to tell people to follow Jesus so as to abide with Him. Yet, you do not want hear that, though. So you mock me and verbally attack me (Instead of discussing the Scriptures in love and respect).

Not mocking you man. Just being honest with you. This behavior yiu exhibit here is not that of a person who has a healthy faith.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

There comes a time when I start to wonder who is the one with the problem.

IE

I go for a walk down the street and as I pass by I see a grown-up arguing with an adolescent an I think to myself"that child wasn't' raised right and needs to be chastised.

Then I go on by and then an hour later I'm returning back and I pass by the same grown-up arguing with the same adolescent and now I'm thinking that the youngster is innocent by reason of ignorance but why is the grown-up still arguing?

 

[SarahM777]

Hebrews 5

Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. [SUP]2 [/SUP]He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. [SUP]3 [/SUP]This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was. [SUP]5 [/SUP]In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”[SUP][a][/SUP]

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he says in another place,
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]7 [/SUP]During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered [SUP]9 [/SUP]and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him [SUP]10 [/SUP]and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

1 John 2


[SUP]3 [/SUP]We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[SUP][a][/SUP] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: [SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister[SUP][b][/SUP] is still in the darkness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Anyone who loves their brother and sister[SUP][c][/SUP] lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.


John 8

[SUP]48 [/SUP]The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”
[SUP]49 [/SUP]“I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. [SUP]50 [/SUP]I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. [SUP]51 [/SUP]Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

[SUP]52 [/SUP]At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. [SUP]53 [/SUP]Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. [SUP]55 [/SUP]Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. [SUP]56 [/SUP]Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
[SUP]57 [/SUP]“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
[SUP]58 [/SUP]“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” [SUP]59 [/SUP]At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

 

[Sirk]

There comes a time when I start to wonder who is the one with the problem.

IE

I go for a walk down the street and as I pass by I see a grown-up arguing with an adolescent an I think to myself"that child wasn't' raised right and needs to be chastised.

Then I go on by and then an hour later I'm returning back and I pass by the same grown-up arguing with the same adolescent and now I'm thinking that the youngster is innocent by reason of ignorance but why is the grown-up still arguing?

Ya...the whole don't argue with a fool thing. I get it. I like Jason. He reminds me of my obstinate teenager in a lot of ways. I know it looks like I'm arguing but really Ive just been trying to see if I can distract the guy for a second.

 

[Budman]

If keeping my salvation depends upon me at all - I'm in big trouble.

 

[Sirk]

If keeping my salvation depends upon me at all - I'm in big trouble.

Ya but don't be honest about that with these guys...youre liable to be condemned to hell.

 

[SarahM777]

Not true. The cat is already out of the bag. Many here have already admitted that they will sin the rest of their lives. This is willingly giving into sin and evil. It is making an excuse to be bad. This is wrong and evil and nobody here can actually see it.

While you have it half right,you leave out the fact that one must deal with our flesh,which we are to battle it and overcome it,but there are times when we will lose that battle because we have taken our eyes off of the spirit,and try to do so in our flesh,which is weak. And the difference is between is the heart,willful sin is rebellion and that is a matter of the heart.

 

[SarahM777]

Ya but don't be honest about that with these guys...youre liable to be condemned to hell.

But if one living in the spirit can that person sin,since the fruits of the spirit are thus

Galatians 5

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Paul tells us love FULFILLS the law,if we are living by the spirit which the first fruit is LOVE,and love can sin,then will that person sin WHILE they are walking in the spirit?

 

[Sirk]

But if one living in the spirit can that person sin,since the fruits of the spirit are thus

Galatians 5

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Paul tells us love FULFILLS the law,if we are living by the spirit which the first fruit is LOVE,and love can sin,then will that person sin WHILE they are walking in the spirit?

I used to do a lot of things wrong. Now...I've grown up and I read my bible everyday and pray.I don't struggle with any sins of note anymore however I wrestle with my own pride on a daily basis. For the most part I am kind, patient full of love....all of those things...except on the occasion when I'm not and then I do my best to repent and try again.

 

[Budman]

I would simply answer:

"If we say we are without sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8)

Even Paul called himself the "chief" of sinners. And he wasn't speaking in past tense. (1 Timothy 1:15)

 

[BradC]

It's never okay to sin. Yet, people are making excuses so as to allow that to happen while worshiping God.

No they are not. It is in your head and even in your heart because of the WAY you believe. They understand the reality that we are but dust, we have weaknesses and frailties and we still have that old 'nagging' sin nature (OSN) within the members of our body (every cell). We are to make no provision for the flesh but when we do we have an advocate, Christ, who plead our case. Yes, the cross has crucified that (OSN) with all the sin it produces in man, but it has not been eradicated. We must go to God and get grace through the Spirit so that we can walk in that place where God has made us to stand (Rom 5:1,2)...

1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Rom 8:11-13

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Jason, these are promises from God and they are all YEA and AMEN, for God is not a man that can lie and not one word of his good promise will fail. Do you believe this or do you put conditions upon it?

 

[Sirk]

scott ( skinski) and Jason: you guys have been exposed. now we all know the source of the false doctrine you harp on. give it up, repent and believe the REAL Gospel of the REAL Jesus.

They can't even be honest about the basis of their theology. If they are so sure of it...why are they afraid to expose it to the light.....I think it's because it shrivels like an ant under a magnifying glass and deep down they know it. They just keep repeating the lie hoping it sticks to something.....or they're provocateurs just trying to destroy the body of Christ.

 

[sparkman]

If keeping my salvation depends upon me at all - I'm in big trouble.

Yes..my friend Cody says that those who deny eternal security are idolaters. I would say that those who vehemently deny it are. Their faith is in themselves and not God. They can repent of their idolatry though

 

[Jason0047]

Yes..my friend Cody says that those who deny eternal security are idolaters. I would say that those who vehemently deny it are. Their faith is in themselves and not God. They can repent of their idolatry though

Repenting to do evil? That doesn't make any sense. The OSAS proponent is basically saying I need to repent of trying to do that which is holy and good and in following Jesus and that I should be a slave to sin and think all future sin is automatically forgiven (Whereby I do not take sin all that serious because one can sin and still be saved).

In other words, the OSAS proponent cannot borrow God's good morals when it suits their purpose. One is either for good or they are for evil. It cannot be both ways. One cannot sin and still be saved. There is no such thing. Jesus' sacrifice did not take away future sin.

Yes, you will no doubt say that a believer will generally live holy, but what about those other little sins. Do you not know that it only took one sin by Adam and Eve to cause sin and death?

 

[sparkman]

Repenting to do evil? That doesn't make any sense. The OSAS proponent is basically saying I need to repent of trying to do that which is holy and good and in following Jesus and that I should be a slave to sin and think all future sin is automatically forgiven (Whereby I do not take sin all that serious because one can sin and still be saved).

In other words, the OSAS proponent cannot borrow God's good morals when it suits their purpose. One is either for good or they are for evil. It cannot be both ways. One cannot sin and still be saved. There is no such thing. Jesus' sacrifice did not take away future sin.

Yes, you will no doubt say that a believer will generally live holy, but what about those other little sins. Do you not know that it only took one sin by Adam and Eve to cause sin and death?

OK..if your salvation is based on your ability to be sinless, I guess you might as well plan on hell because you still sin. If one tiny sin sends you to hell, you're going to hell. Plan on it.

If your faith is not in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice on your behalf, you're doomed.

 

[sparkman]

Do you belong to a church fellowship where you worship with other believers? A place where you're held accountable? I find that many who claim sinless do not belong to a corporate asembly as is commanded in Scripture.

Repenting to do evil? That doesn't make any sense. The OSAS proponent is basically saying I need to repent of trying to do that which is holy and good and in following Jesus and that I should be a slave to sin and think all future sin is automatically forgiven (Whereby I do not take sin all that serious because one can sin and still be saved).

In other words, the OSAS proponent cannot borrow God's good morals when it suits their purpose. One is either for good or they are for evil. It cannot be both ways. One cannot sin and still be saved. There is no such thing. Jesus' sacrifice did not take away future sin.

Yes, you will no doubt say that a believer will generally live holy, but what about those other little sins. Do you not know that it only took one sin by Adam and Eve to cause sin and death?

 

[valiant]

Repenting to do evil? That doesn't make any sense. The OSAS proponent is basically saying I need to repent of trying to do that which is holy and good and in following Jesus and that I should be a slave to sin and think all future sin is automatically forgiven (Whereby I do not take sin all that serious because one can sin and still be saved).

In other words, the OSAS proponent cannot borrow God's good morals when it suits their purpose. One is either for good or they are for evil. It cannot be both ways. One cannot sin and still be saved. There is no such thing. Jesus' sacrifice did not take away future sin.

Yes, you will no doubt say that a believer will generally live holy, but what about those other little sins. Do you not know that it only took one sin by Adam and Eve to cause sin and death?

If you do not know that you are a sinner who sins it is simply because you have no idea what sin is. It is not enough to refrain from murder, adultery and theft, you have to be perfect in all your ways which includes loving God with all you heart, soul, mind and strength ALL THE TIME. If you tell me that you do I will know that you are a liar. And you know what will happen to liars.

I presume you never pray the Lord's prayer? No doubt in your eyes that was only for His weak Apostles.

 

[sparkman]

Are you in attendance with a local fellowship of believers where you are held accountable? Scripture commands that, but I find a lot of sinless perfectionists aren't in obedience to that command. Also are you that guy Scott Wilson from Annika's group who goes around attacking people proclaiming his sinlessness? I see some parallels in that he is an Aussie and also had some tornado pics on his profile like you have on your youtube channel.

Regarding the child molester question, you could insert any other sin in that slot. My question is, do you expect people to act like saved people before they are saved, regenerated and given the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit and regeneration is what CHANGES the person. The nature is changed through regeneration and being born again.

It sounds like you would require some type of probationary period before a person responds in faith to the gospel message. Tell that to Peter when over 3000 responded in a single day. Did they go through your spiritual probationary period of "repentance" as you define it? Or is that just for really nasty sinners?

Repentance is part of placing one's faith in Christ. Faith is turning toward Christ and repentance is turning away from a sinful orientation. The two are never separate. And placing one's faith in Christ leads to salvation and regeneration which are a simultaneous event. Desario's question simply betrays his abysmal ignorance. And he intentionally used child molesting rather than fornication so he could use his survey as propaganda. That certainly portrays a disingenuous spirit.

Repentance is also a gift of God. God causes repentance. He causes faith as well. Faith is not our work and the Scriptures below prove it.

This is part of a paper I wrote on salvation. I describe sin in a previous section. These points pertain to faith, repentance and confession. Here's the entire paper if anyone is interested: http://1drv.ms/1Sy4ZDb

FAITH, REPENTANCE AND CONFESSION
Scripture teaches that we must repent and place our faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.Faith and belief are synonymous in Scripture.Salvation is by faith alone (Acts 10:43, 15:9, 16:31, Romans 3:24-25, 10:9, Galatians 2:16), and is not by works (Romans 3:26, 28).

What does repentance and faith mean?Repentance means to change our mind. We turn away from our sinful orientation.Faith means to turn toward Jesus Christ.Repentance and faith describe two sides of the same coin.They describe the same motion.We turn away from our sinful orientation and toward Jesus Christ.These two components are inseparable (Acts 20:21).

View it this way:before salvation, our fundamental orientation is sinful.We embrace sin as a way of life.We don’t care what God has to say about our actions and thoughts.When we place our faith in Christ, we are turning away from this orientation of rejecting God and towards Jesus Christ.

Saving faith has three necessary components.Facts are the first necessary component.We hear certain facts about God, Christ, our sin, the fact that he died for us as a substitution, and that our sins can be forgiven through acceptance of this sacrifice.We learn that we can avoid the wrath of God and condemnation through turning to Jesus Christ and accepting his sacrifice.These facts are called the gospel message.

The second necessary component is agreeing that these facts about the gospel message are true.However, we can know these facts, and agree that they are true, but our faith is still incomplete.

The third necessary component is coming to the point where we actually place our confidence in Christ.We hear the facts of the gospel message; we agree that they are true.We judge that Christ is worthy of our faith, or confidence. This is also called receiving the word in Scripture (Acts 2:41, 8:14).A saving faith involves all three of these components.

If a person knows that he is sinful, and believes that Christ died in his place, he can confess his sins before God, and ask for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to be applied to these sins.This is called confession.

Examples of receiving salvation in Scripture are the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2: 14-41), the Samaritans (Acts 8:4-25), the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26-40), Cornelius’ family (Acts 10), Lydia(Acts 16:14-15),the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:25-34), Crispusand his household (Acts 18:8), and the conversion of the Apostle Paul (Acts 22:6-16), Look for elements of these components within these accounts:hearing the gospel message about Jesus Christ, faith or belief, repentance, and confession.

The amazing thing is that God himself gives us faith (Acts 16:14, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, Acts 3:16) and grants us repentance (Acts 11:18, 2 Timothy 2:25).Those who are saved have nothing to boast about whatsoever because of this; it is not about human works (Romans 3:20, 27-28, 4:5, 1 Corinthians 1:31, Galatians 2:16).Salvation is God’s work.
When you confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, you are saved.You are forgiven of all of your sins.Your heart is cleansed through faith (Acts 15:9).You have heard the gospel message about Jesus Christ and his death on the cross, and you believe it, and you place your confidence in Jesus Christ for salvation.Your confidence is not in your works, but is in the work of Jesus Christ done on the cross in your behalf.

What does confession mean? Confession means to declare our faith in Christ.We believe with our heart and we confess with our lips in prayer.Confession includes a request for forgiveness.Confession is an act of humility.We are acknowledging our sin before God, and the fact that this sin has earned the wrath and condemnation of God.But, we realize that Jesus died on our behalf as a substitute for us, and we can ask God for that sacrifice to be applied to our sin debt.We receive forgiveness of our sins by God’s grace, which means his unmerited favor.

Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone (Acts 15:11, Ephesians 2:8).Grace means unmerited favor.Favor goes beyond mere pardon or forgiveness; it means that God is actively for us..he is totally on our side.God’s just wrath against sin has been appeased, and the saved person is no longer under condemnation (Romans 8:1), nor does he ever come under condemnation again (John 5:24, 10:28).

I was first really exposed to Church History through the work of Chris Hill in an audio recording entitles "Repentance Unto Life." This audio teaching blew me away with how pointed it was and how much it made sense. It pierced right through much of what I believes and I found myself naked before God. I had to either suppress what I was learning due to its implications or dive in deeper. I chose to dive in deeper.

The work of Chris Hill led me to the work of Mike DeSarion. I found Mike's lectures very refreshing and clear. I sought out and spoke with Mike and would often communicate with him. This led me to forsaking sin for the light turned on in regards to what I had to do and that I had previously not been doing it. Ever since then I have been devouring the Bible, Church History and I have also dug deep into a lot of theology. I have read Calvin, Wesley, Finney and many others and can see many problems with their work as well as see how these problems originated.

I do approve of Mike DeSario's teachings. He is teaching people that they have to forsake their rebellion to God, yield, and be born again through the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

I differ in some regards to what he teaches on some subjects but it is negligible where it matters.

I have a lot of his videos on my Youtube channel because I saved them from Google Videos before Google Video was discontinued. I thought their content was significant enough to be preserved and thus I put them on Youtube. I also saved this video from Google Video which I think is one of the best presentations of the Gospel I have ever seen in my life...

[video=youtube;9eL57nAm9Lo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eL57nAm9Lo[/video]

This man has put on sackcloth and ashes and is appealing from the heart to a lost and deceived generation of people that they come to a knowledge of the truth. He is akin to a Jeremiah or Isaiah in my opinion. He may not be giving a revelation of prophecy like those men but he is giving a call to repentance. He is a man of God and ought not be ignored.

This video would have been lost forever I suspect if I had not ripped it from Google Video when I did. I thank God I did so.


The reason Mike DeSario associates people who uphold OSAS with child molesters is because of the child molestation question which was sent out to hundreds and probably even thousands of pastors. I have sent the same question to hundreds of pastors myself.

The question is...

"Does a child molester have to stop molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them."

The responses received from pastors is generally an emphatic NO THEY DO NOT.

Stopping any particular sin is not the issue, you see, the issue is whether one trusts in the provision provided by Penal Substitution, ie. Jesus was punished as a substitute for the sinner thus expiating the wrath of God (making it not due any more, the fine is paid in full) and Jesus also obeyed as a substitute for the sinner where his obedience is credited to the believer.

Thus a pedophile can still be actively engaged in his vile deeds but be saved at the same time because salvation is not of works. It is all God you see. If the child molester is genuinely saved then he will be convicted about his filthy deeds and "desire" to not do it although the actual cessation is really up in the air. He may stop, he may continue.

In other words a Gospel message is preached where people are saved IN sin instead of saved FROM sin.

I am not aware of any phone call Mike made to Hank Hanegraff and unless one was a first hand witness to such a call or the recording or one can produce it now then it is gossip to be using such a thing to demean Mike.

Mike's website used to have the following audio clips from Hank on it though...

Hank Hanegraaff, Believers must Confess Sins that are already Forgiven
Hank Hanegraaff, Jesus exchanges His Perfection for your imperfection
Hank Hanegraaff, OSAS is an expression of God
Hank Hanegraaff, were Positionally Righteous, but Practically we still Sin
source:- Outrageous Audio Clips with the

The amazon account they were stored on was deleted by another unfortunately so they are lost.



A belief in OSAS disconnects "deeds" from salvation. Thus it necessitates salvation being "abstract" in order to account for manifest rebellion to God (like child molestation or theft). Penal Substitution is the perfect solution for an abstract view of salvation.

OSAS is premised on ancient gnosticism mixed with a Jesus flavour. That is the truth.

 

[BradC]

Repenting to do evil? That doesn't make any sense. The OSAS proponent is basically saying I need to repent of trying to do that which is holy and good and in following Jesus and that I should be a slave to sin and think all future sin is automatically forgiven (Whereby I do not take sin all that serious because one can sin and still be saved).

In other words, the OSAS proponent cannot borrow God's good morals when it suits their purpose. One is either for good or they are for evil. It cannot be both ways. One cannot sin and still be saved. There is no such thing. Jesus' sacrifice did not take away future sin.

Yes, you will no doubt say that a believer will generally live holy, but what about those other little sins. Do you not know that it only took one sin by Adam and Eve to cause sin and death?

You are ascribing evil to believers who are learning to live by the grace of God and you have little understanding as to what that even means. Do you relate to carnal thinking as being sinful just as much as doing any works of the flesh? You can't be 99% spiritual and 1% carnal, it does not work that way when living by the grace of God. I bet that you are more carnal in your thinking then you even realize, and that is just as much sin as anything else that involves the law. You can be morally upright in your deeds and be carnally minded because you have learned to abstain from certain appetites of the flesh. Growing in grace goes way beyond all that.

If God has convicted me to go a certain path and I procrastinate, that is being carnally minded. If I have a comfortable lifestyle and worked hard and disciplined to get it, and God tells me to take up my cross, deny and give up all that and I choose not to, through I remain moral in my deeds, I am carnally minded and that is death and not the life of God. Refusing to do what God calls us to do is carnal and just as much of the flesh as adultery or idolatry. You need to understand that Jason. If someone is in need and you have the means and opportunity to do something about it, which may require you to give up all or some of what you have. and you refuse to to it, that is not only carnal but it is evil.

If you do not bestow more abundant honor on those who seem to be less honorable (maybe someone who does not agree with or flatter you) then you commit sin against the grace of God. Did you ever consider that Jason??????????????????? God is your judge, not me.