over 100 come to the Lord at Disneyland!

Miah45 · Jul 19, 2009

That's easy! Unless of course you're talking about a prophetic significance...
I believe it's because they're believers who believe they can bring the light and kingdom wherever they go.. so much evangelism still follows the old wine skin of deliberate planned outreach... nothing wrong with it, but in the new wine skin of what God is doing today he's mobilizing a bigger army of people who simply move in the love and power of the kingdom wherever they are...while they're on the way to the grocery store, to work, or to a holiday in Disneyland!

I'm a firm believer that if I stumble on someone sick, I'm that person's divine appointment!

(Isaiah 61:1-3)

wattie · Jul 19, 2009

From a cessationist:

Cessationists get their view from scripture.

Plain and simple.

Not cos they are prudes.. or emotionally dead.. or want to limit the Holy Spirit.. in fact they are trying to honour the Holy Spirit by showing how He works in different ways and in different times.

I know that when you look at 1st Corinthians 12-14, Ephesians chapter 4 and Acts 2 together.. study them deeply.. going to the original koine Greek, the completed Word of God fits in with Ephesians 4 knowledge of the unity of the faith.. measure of teh stature of the fullness of Christ .. like a glove!

It also fits 1 Corinthians 13.. that which is perfect or the perfect thing VERY WELL. Firstly-- the perfect thing is an inanimate object - the bible is this. Secondly the word perfect when looking at the original Greek refers to something mature or complete.. teh bible is a complete canon of God's revealed Word to His people, so it fits that.

Also.. prophecy and tongues gift of knowledge are the context of 1 Corinthians 13.. a sub-context from the primary context of love. The thing that is perfect is what completes prophecy and tongues and gift of knowledge. If these are all about God's revelation to His people.. sharing it.. well.. the bible is a record of God's complete revelation!

So.. cessationists are cessationists because of scriptural understanding.. no other reason.

BUT aside from that.. ask some scientists.. psychologists etc to study out the kind of thing you see in the video on this thread. They will tell you they have seen the saem thing tons of times in not just charismatic christianity but in pagan beliefs and through people just going out of their mind.

This isn't unbelief and scepticism.. this is honouring the way the Holy Spirit works through studying scripture in depth.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever .. yes! But He has had different covenants with people, ways of service, things He has done.

We don't sacrfice bulls anymore... God will never flood the earth again by His promise to Noah.. the are no apostles around now.. because the were eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ.. the type of place of worship has changed from the synagogue to the NT congregation or assembly..

Just because something is in the bible.. doesn't mean you apply to now in exactly the same way.

Besides all this, I believe God can perform miracles today if He wants to..

but that isn't something that can just be commanded and directed by mortal men. Needs a very special purpose and reason for happening. All of Jesus' miracles were done for particular teaching and purpose.. ie the coming of God's Kingdom, demonstration of Jesus deity, demonstration of Jesus' power to give life.

So.. get the people together from that video.. and then get scientists in and stuff to see if the miracles and healings were real.. if you get 100 perecent instant healings that have no recurrence.. then I might start thinking God decided to heal those people.

wattie · Jul 19, 2009

Also aside from the above post.. I have no issue with the people asking Jesus for salvation.. that is all good

1still_waters · Jul 20, 2009

wattie said:

From a cessationist:

Cessationists get their view from scripture.

Plain and simple.

Not cos they are prudes.. or emotionally dead.. or want to limit the Holy Spirit.. in fact they are trying to honour the Holy Spirit by showing how He works in different ways and in different times.

I know that when you look at 1st Corinthians 12-14, Ephesians chapter 4 and Acts 2 together.. study them deeply.. going to the original koine Greek, the completed Word of God fits in with Ephesians 4 knowledge of the unity of the faith.. measure of teh stature of the fullness of Christ .. like a glove!

It also fits 1 Corinthians 13.. that which is perfect or the perfect thing VERY WELL. Firstly-- the perfect thing is an inanimate object - the bible is this. Secondly the word perfect when looking at the original Greek refers to something mature or complete.. teh bible is a complete canon of God's revealed Word to His people, so it fits that.

Also.. prophecy and tongues gift of knowledge are the context of 1 Corinthians 13.. a sub-context from the primary context of love. The thing that is perfect is what completes prophecy and tongues and gift of knowledge. If these are all about God's revelation to His people.. sharing it.. well.. the bible is a record of God's complete revelation!

So.. cessationists are cessationists because of scriptural understanding.. no other reason.

BUT aside from that.. ask some scientists.. psychologists etc to study out the kind of thing you see in the video on this thread. They will tell you they have seen the saem thing tons of times in not just charismatic christianity but in pagan beliefs and through people just going out of their mind.

This isn't unbelief and scepticism.. this is honouring the way the Holy Spirit works through studying scripture in depth.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and forever .. yes! But He has had different covenants with people, ways of service, things He has done.

We don't sacrfice bulls anymore... God will never flood the earth again by His promise to Noah.. the are no apostles around now.. because the were eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ.. the type of place of worship has changed from the synagogue to the NT congregation or assembly..

Just because something is in the bible.. doesn't mean you apply to now in exactly the same way.

Besides all this, I believe God can perform miracles today if He wants to..

but that isn't something that can just be commanded and directed by mortal men. Needs a very special purpose and reason for happening. All of Jesus' miracles were done for particular teaching and purpose.. ie the coming of God's Kingdom, demonstration of Jesus deity, demonstration of Jesus' power to give life.

So.. get the people together from that video.. and then get scientists in and stuff to see if the miracles and healings were real.. if you get 100 perecent instant healings that have no recurrence.. then I might start thinking God decided to heal those people.

The problem with cessationism is that it all hangs on ONE shaky verse in one chapter of the Bible.

MahogonySnail · Jul 20, 2009

So do Mormons and JW's and Catholics. and, so do non-cessationists. How many miracles, let's say healings, do cessationists see? Do they even bother to pray for healing? Or do they just pray and trust in medical doctors LOL.

I would sort of disagree with the statement that it is "honouring the way the Holy Spirit works through studying scripture in depth".
Rather, it is restricting and confining the way the Holy Spirit works, to a predefined interpretation of the Scripture.
God is not really honored and glorified by expresion of skepticism and doubt, but by having faith in his works and abilities. Regardless of whether it happens according to your complete satisfaction or not!, or even happens at all!

I really doubt that you believe that. "if He wants to", is merely a front for skepticism and doubt.
Do you also believe God can save people "if He wants to"? God does want to!..and He does.

Of course not, that's why people do it by the power of the Holy Spirit and in the name of Jesus, it is Him not us. Besides, we are more than mortal men. We are sons and daughters of the Most High God in Christ.

Yes, it's called being sick and needing healing.

If that's so, why did Jesus do secret healings? He also healed all who came to Him. You've missed the most important thing. That God heals people out of pure love. We should be seeking God for miracles in the name of Jesus , in order to glorify Him. Everytime God does a miracle in the name of Jesus it glorifies God. It also confirms the Gospel. :

Joh 14:13 And whatever you may ask in My name, that I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Try that line in context of salvation and the Holy Spirit indwelling a believer etc.lol It won't work.

Did you also do this same test to yourself to see if you were saved? If not, why not?

Sure, let's go to the world shall we to prove the things of God? Do we also consult scientists for their views regarding how the world was created (or evolved, rather)?

Derek · Jul 20, 2009

1still_waters said:

Standing in line all day for rides at Disneyland! hahaha

doubleedge · Jul 20, 2009

I SMELL DECEPTION!!!

Disney is no better than harry potter (a huge topic in these forums). Did U know that walt disney (among other people & things) is responsible for the corruption of millions of young minds. He was one of the biggest, if not THE biggest endorsers of pornography in the history of the world!!! Look it up... the truth will "resonate"! "" - Matthew 18:1-6

doubleedge · Jul 20, 2009

P.S.

Absolutely NOTHING in prophecy suggests that anything Miah45 says will take place in these times!!!

imoss · Jul 21, 2009

what is a cessationist?

carpetmanswife · Jul 21, 2009

imoss said:

Cessationists believe the gifts of the Holy spirit ceased after the foundation of the early church

wattie · Jul 23, 2009

Back to cessationist view:

It doesn't hang on one verse of the bible.. but the entirety of 1 Corinthians 12-14, Acts 2 and Ephesians 4.. not to mention numerous other verses. Aside from that, the majority of people that believe gifts of the Holy Spirit of sign and ministry gifts also hang that the 'perfect thing' or 'that which is perfect' in 1 Corinthians 13 as the 2nd coming of Jesus! So you can't have your cake and eat it to.. it works both ways.

Also how is it limiting the Holy Spirit by saying He works in a different way than He did in the past? If the completed canon is the perfect thing and the knowledge of teh unity of the faith .. it is honouring that He has chosen to work in a different way now than the operation of all spiritual gifts.

In regards to salvation-- that is by grace through faith in Jesus.. where the Holy Spirit indwells a believer.. sealing them for eternity.

The reason this still stands for today.. is because it is something that has had no verse indicating cessation! Indeed.. salvation this way can be traced right back not just with the NT but with the OT.. with the examples of Job and David etc believing in a redeemer.

This is one of the principles of studying scripture in context.. the principle of ages.. that salvation has not changed.. but God's way of working with His children has over time with different covenants and methods of service.

A cessationist believes ministry and sign gifts passed away with teh completion of the Word of God.. the reason? What causes tongues, prophecy and gift of knowledge to cease in 1 Corinthians 13 as 'that which is perfect' or 'the perfect thing'... in the context of 1 Corinthians 12-14? The best fit is the Word of God. The 'knowledge of the unity of the faith'.. 'measure of teh stature of teh fullness of Christ'.. in Ephesians 4.. that causes ministry gifts to be put away - the best fit is the Word of God.

I do believe in the fruits of the Spirit big time!
I also believe that faith hope and love are spiritual gifts from Jesus.. because without Jesus.. they are only a miniscule shade of what they really can be.

Also.. I was saying that someone should bring in people to check that those were real 100 percent biblical miracles in the video.. because faith in Jesus is not blind.. and stands up to study and reason.. indeed when you look at evidence behind the bible.. Jesus' life.. etc.. it stands up to study and says search me more! The kind of people I mean are the likes of a past pastor and friend I know who did a big study on miracles.. and worked as a Mental Health Nurse.. and so has researched miracles and had experience with people who have claimed miracles.. but found false.

Finally.. by saying that God can't be directed by mortal men to perform miracles.. I am saying that when He did miracles in the bible as Jesus.. and through others.. they weren't directing God like they had the power to make God do whatever they wanted. Notice the video-- the people aren't letting God do His thing.. they are just trying to direct how they want Him to work.

That's all

MahogonySnail · Jul 23, 2009

I don't really think the Word of God is that which is perfect for the following reasons:

a) God's Word is always perfect, it doesn't become perfect. It was perfect from the very beginning at the time of the apostles, not when the the biblical canon was completed. If there ever was a time of perfection and complete knowledge, it was
at the time of the apostles because they were actual witnesses to Christ's life, death and resurrection and ascension.

If that which is perfect had come, back in the early centuaries when the bible was written, then we should see perfect knowledge and perfect revelation in Christianity throughout the last 2000 years. Rather, we see the opposite. The New Testament canon alone took centuaries to develop. Right about the time that Christianity was in decline and becoming corrupt (according to protestant thought re: Catholicism and Emperor Constantine etc) - rather than becoming perfect.

c) What is recorded in the Word of God, is not perfect knowledge, but is a record of prophesies and revelations which the apostle Himself declared were "in part" at the time scripture was written (see 1 Cor 13:9). In other words, the completion of a bible, or whatever, does not mean complete knowledge and revelation has come. It includes Paul's partial knowledge, unless another apostle came afterwards and revealed even more than what Paul did. If there was ever a time when complete and perfect knowledge etc came, it would be at the time of the apostle Paul, not decades later when the bible was compiled. Putting a bunch of books together and calling it a bible does not result in revelation. It results in a compilation of a lot of partial knowledge and revelation - unless there was another apostle, bishop, priest, or perhaps a Pope, who perfected the doctrines so that they became complete and perfect.

d) Our understanding and knowledge is not yet complete and full, neither is our love perfect. That is evidenced by the multitude of different creeds, doctrines, denominations etc. We are still in the age of seeing in part, we still have imperfect knowledge. Unless we appeal to the "one faith" of the apostolic churches eg Roman Catholic, as being that which is perfect knowledge. As protestants, with all the different creeds, denominations and views, we can't really claim to have that which is perfect. Otherwise what was the purpose for Luther, Calvin to have the reformation and declare the five sola's etc, if that which is perfect was supposed to come back in the early centuaries?

One view I've heard from some is that the early church needed the gifts because they didn't have a bible, and since we have a bible we don't need the gifts. This doesn't make sense because remember that the very letter Paul wrote to them about the spiritual gifts, is a complete book of the bible and is scripture, yet as Paul admits, he still does not have complete knowledge at that time (1 Cor 13:9). Besides, the early church were not without scripture, they had the apostles writings circulating at the time not to mention the same Scriptures which Jesus used and they did not lack just because they didn't have a complete New Testament.

Pineapple · Jul 23, 2009

Derek said:

AHAAHAHAHAHAHA!

Miah45 · Jul 23, 2009

MahogonySnail said:

Really well said Mahogany Snail...!! Full of life and love!

Wattie..
The interesting thing about the passages you mentioned of 1 Cor 12-14 etc.. (and to say I get where you're coming from I do speak both Greek and Hebrew fluently ) is that even in English we can understand the main points of what Paul is trying to communicate..

Here's what I understand:

1 Cor 12

i) Despite the varying gifts and ministries, all flow from the same Spirit i.e. the Spirit of God.
ii) These are for the profit of all for (v7) And because Paul is addressing the Church he is expecting these things to continue beyond the current Apostolic oversight..(Disciples etc)(v37)
iii) The Body (i.e. the church) or a 'member' of that Body cannot say I/we have no need of you and your gift to another member of the same Body (v20-21) Every gift and ministry no matter how insignificant or significant it seems, is valid and treasured as coming from the Spirit of God for our profit.
iv) If miracles and the more 'supernatural' ministries have ceased from a 'new' dispensation according to this passage so have the much needed help and administrations gifts and ministries?! (v27)

1 Cor 13 'The more excellent way'

Paul then goes on in this well known passage in the context of giftings and ministries to talk about the possibility of moving in gifts and callings without love and how love is the greatest gift above all... Like Mahogany Snail said God heals out of love which is why these gifts and callings have flowed down to us.. to flow out from us to a dying world and the building up of the Body. They best show the world what he is truly like and communicate his will to the sick (see also Isaiah 61)

i) v8-13 that which is perfect is Jesus! we shall see him face to face.. then and only then will the gifts given us cease..

ii)"NOW abide Faith, Hope and Love" (v13) Why is LOVE the greatest? because it's the only ETERNAL gift listed.. when we step into eternity we will not need faith or hope.. that's the context for the previous gifts and callings.. Can we say a dispensation has come where we no longer need faith or hope?

Eph 4

i) says that gifts and callings are for the building (equipping)up of the church, "until..."Once the body grows into maturity it's equipped to train up the next generation etc..

---------------------------------

i) Is the body in need of encouragement that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever? YES!
Did God pour out in smaller measure gifts of healing and miracles, Apostolic oversight, Prophets and Teachers in the OT? Yes... the same Spirit of God

ii)Why in a more glorious covenant of better promises would he stop now? Is not the darkness darker than ever before and the light in more need to be brighter than ever before? Yes, when Jesus healed and performed miracles they were signs that pointed to the greater truths of who Jesus is... but he heals and builds up the body out of love

iii) Is the world to be without light of the Gospel of the Kingdom and still expected to draw close and pick up it's bible? Doesn't God heal even though those healed fall away or even still don't come to him despite what he's done for them? Yes because God still hates the works of the Devil and still loves us.

Lastly, and this is not an attack but I can't imagine sitting next to those that I have, dying of cancer having them read how Jesus healed all those who came to him, and telling them he's not in the miracle business anymore.. perfection has come. ?

No matter what people have experienced in their small corner of the world.. the perfect standard that is to become our experience (not the other way round) has been handed down to us from Jesus as a man....Jesus healed ALL who came to him.

"You can give without loving but you can't truly love without giving..." (Kris Vallotton)

missy2shoes · Jul 23, 2009

I believe Jesus heals today no doubt about it....what I have a problem with, is when people place so much emphasis on showing people getting healed to prove God is working......when Jesus healed, He often said.....'Don't tell anyone.'......word spread, not because Jesus promoted Himself but rather when people's lives were touched, they went and told others about what GOD had done for them....

An unknown lady in a remote part of the world has seen more healings than a lot of us put together.......she goes into villages without video cameras and gets on with what God has given her to do......HE therefore gets the FULL glory!!......

If God tells you to go and pray over a person for healing.....do it.......but without all the fan fare.........

Fatherofall · Jul 23, 2009

I'm sorry......but at one point she is pointing out someone running past without his sling....and then shows up 2 minutes later with it on. This trivializes miracles.....giggling, laughing privilidged american kids having their sore backs healed? Are you kidding?
What is this supposed to be?

Miah45 · Jul 23, 2009

missy2shoes said:

I'm sorry you feel that way! I know it can be uncomfortable for the more traditional follower of Jesus and those that don't see much happening in their local congregation.. many of my friends who long to see this kind of thing in their local area can be very frustrated when they only hear of stories of this happening in far off places.. These videos show it isn't just happening in far off places.. and is a great encouragement for those who ARE seeing this kind of thing or NEED a miracle, not just merely believing Jesus heals today.
My understanding is that this is a form of testimony, boasting in what the Lord is doing and giving praise to him... is that problematic??

missy2shoes said:

Firstly, my understanding is there was a particular reason why Jesus on those occasions told people not to tell anyone..much for the same reason I'm sure he told demons who began declaring who he was to be silent.. secondly no one is promoting themselves and I'm testifying of what others have been partnering with the Lord in... I'm confused what the problem is??

missy2shoes said:

Ahhh! maybe you're equating people finding out and talking about God's amazing love and power with him not getting the 'FUll' glory?? Can't quite figure that out.. but the rocks and stones aren't going to be louder than me!!

Not sure if you're talking about Heidi Baker in Mozambique...?? She's not exactly unknown if that's who you are referring to... but I realize that thankfully she's not alone and there are many out there doing the stuff.. that we haven't all heard of..

[/QUOTE]If God tells you to go and pray over a person for healing.....do it.......but without all the fan fare.........[/QUOTE]
Fanfare???

"One generation shall praise Your works to another, And shall declare Your mighty acts. I will meditate on the glorious splendor of Your majesty, And on Your wondrous works. Men shall speak of the might of Your awesome acts, And I will declare Your greatness. They shall utter the memory of Your great goodness, And shall sing of Your righteousness. " (Psalm 145:4-7)

Miah45 · Jul 23, 2009

Fatherofall said:

Look I realize this isn't going to be for everyone.. posting here brings up many reactions.. BUT!
Let's be clear... his arm isn't back in the sling...which understandably would then be weird.. what trivializes what? That he has his sling on so that people can see what happened to him and that God healed him?
Do you think that possibly had something to do with why there were so many kids gathered and why there was over 100 salvations!

in the words of Bobby McFerren... 'Don't worry.. be HAPPY!

wattie · Jul 23, 2009

that which is perfect-

perfect in the Greek-- does not have the same meaning as the English word perfect.. it refers to something complete, lacking nothing necessary for completeness-- something mature. So when Paul is referring to something perfect.. he is referring to something coming to full maturity.. completion.

In Paul's time scripture was in part.. OT complete.. but NT in process.. the words being revealed were perfect and complete.. but the whole canon was still in process.

Also the context of 1 Corinthians 13.. is about love as a main context.. and then a sub-context of prophecy and tongues and gift of knowledge. The subject of Jesus is not there.. but the revelation of God is.

Now.. if you put the 2nd coming in as the perfect thing.. you run into trouble.. because the perfect thing.. is in teh Greek something that was complete, mature.. lacking nothing necessary for completeness.. the same thing that is complete.. is related to somethign that is in part..

Jesus was never in part! But scripture was in part. The scripture that was being put down was completely divine and perfect in the English sense of the Word.. but not completely finished.

Anyway, this will probly go round and round and round.. so best to agree to disagree

I don agree with what is going on the video.. not just because of the cessationist view point.. but I used to be into that kind of thing myself.. I was a charismatic christian.. and later I was into combining beliefs like Hinduism with Buddhism with Christianity.. so I know what these things feel like and how they appear.

Feels good.. looks good.. but who ever goes back to check on the people later on to see if they have really truly 100 percent healed?

I know a number of people who have done studies on the people with Benny Hinn's healings.. and the majority of cases can be put down to

psychosematic healings - the mind being powerful enough to influence chemicals in the body which speed up the healing process of an inury or illness.. this can easily be seen with Benny Hinn concerts where the crowd is built up into a euphoric state before the healing session begins.

temporary healings- the euphoric state of the person sends chemicals to the brain which deaden and minismise pain coming from areas that are meant to be being healed.

false healings- person has an emotional experience believing they are healed and then leaves the place only to find they still have bad knees or a whatever

hypnotist type healings.. the person doing the healings looks for people from the crowd who are being very responsive to the message or the words of the healing person.. so they are pre-disposed to suggestion.

Once you cut out these kind of things happen.. there aren't many genuine healings left.

Real healings can happen.. because God is real and all powerful.. He can do what He likes! But the frequency of when He does I think is claimed to be way more than what really happens.

The other issue I have with this video.. is altho it is right for someone to ask Jesus into their life for salvation.. some of the people.. are just saying words.. just responding to the people doing the healings to say a line after them.. if you are going to be getting people to pray to receive Christ.. it is far better to sit down with them and really see where their heart is at, so they really get what they are doing when they receive Christ. Someone can be saved through saying those words.. but when they are meaning it from their heart!

imoss · Jul 23, 2009

carpetmanswife said:

Well then, i guess i'm a noncessationist.

over 100 come to the Lord at Disneyland!

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