Paul And James in Total, Complete Agreement On Works

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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#21
I believe one hears the word, they believe in what they heard, and through that faith they repent, dedicating their life to God and turning from their sins. From here that obedience out of love for Him will have a believer walk a proper life bearing good fruit.
Let me ask you question brother.

Jesus command you to do agape love, can you obey this command/agape love before you abide in Him?


Jesus said if branch not abide in me it will not bear fruit.

What is fruit of the Spirit.

As for me I believe Jesus never lie, and I will not able to obey the command to do agape love before I abide in Him.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
 
K

Kerry

Guest
#22
works huh. can you do works without faith or do works give you faith. If the latter then you might as well be Buddhist for it is works based or Muslim if you blow up some people with a suicide bomb man your great and awesome and going to hell. Man cannot provide works to satisfy God. The only work He will accept is the cross and our faith in it. Nothing else. Sorry suicide bomber you got duped.
 

Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
1,039
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#23
Jabberjaw said:
Do you (if you're a branch) believe if you do nothing (never bear fruit) you will remain in Him?
If you do nothing. Mean you have to do something. What do you mean by doing something?

I believe I can't bear fruit of myself. event if I want to. How you expect to bear fruit when Jesus Himself said only if you abide in me you will bear fruit.

So you believe without abide in Him you able to bear fruit?
You're not making sense and avoiding my question, since Jesus did not expect fig or any other fruit to actually spring up out of your arms and legs, he was talking about "work", if you (you meaning you, not a group) are a member of his body (meaning His group, his church) that you are expected to do work to make his church grow (produce fruit, a metaphor for growth) then answer the question:

So do you think you can "do nothing" (never bear fruit) and remain in Him?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
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#24
Do you (if you're a branch) believe if you do nothing (never bear fruit) you will remain in Him?
What do you suggest one must do to remain in Him?

Scripture says that if we abide in Him He produces fruit in us. We do not produce the fruit we bear the fruit.

It is always Him and never me.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
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#25
You're not making sense and avoiding my question, since Jesus did not expect fig or any other fruit to actually spring up out of your arms and legs, he was talking about "work", if you (you meaning you, not a group) are a member of his body (meaning His group, his church) that you are expected to do work to make his church grow (produce fruit, a metaphor for growth) then answer the question:

So do you think you can "do nothing" (never bear fruit) and remain in Him?
You question is reverse Jesus teaching.

Branch can't bear fruit of itself.

You can't bear the fruit if you not abide in Him.

I believe abide mean remain.

You can bear the fruit unless you remain in Him.

With you question, you expect to remain in Him by bearing the fruit. while Jesus said it is impossible to bear the fruit without abide/remain in Him.

What do you mean by His church, is that Roman Catholic?
 

Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
1,039
7
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#26
works huh. can you do works without faith or do works give you faith. If the latter then you might as well be Buddhist for it is works based or Muslim if you blow up some people with a suicide bomb man your great and awesome and going to hell. Man cannot provide works to satisfy God. The only work He will accept is the cross and our faith in it. Nothing else. Sorry suicide bomber you got duped.
How does your argument fit in with the OP? the OP is on whether James and Paul are in agreement on works?
 

Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
1,039
7
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#27
You question is reverse Jesus teaching.

Branch can't bear fruit of itself.

You can't bear the fruit if you not abide in Him.

I believe abide mean remain.

You can bear the fruit unless you remain in Him.

With you question, you expect to remain in Him by bearing the fruit. while Jesus said it is impossible to bear the fruit without abide/remain in Him.

What do you mean by His church, is that Roman Catholic?
I am not roman catholic (won't even capitalize it) and don't know why you bring it up, I explained the branch and fruit, you're taking it out of context and taking the OP off topic, so explain how you think James and Paul differ on works, or not?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#28
I am not roman catholic (won't even capitalize it) and don't know why you bring it up, I explained the branch and fruit, you're taking it out of context and taking the OP off topic, so explain how you think James and Paul differ on works, or not?
so the question is.

How can one have faith if they deny what God says about sin (in which case they would continue to live in sin)

can anyone answer this question?
 
O

oldthennew

Guest
#29
Greek Lexicon definition



  1. [*=left]to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
    [*=left]to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins



    Standard definition by the dictionary;


    [SUP]1[/SUP]re·pent

    verb \ri-ˈpent\: to feel or show that you are sorry for something bad or wrong that you did and that you want to do what is right










    Full Definition of REPENT

    intransitive verb
    1
    : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life

    2
    a : to feel regret or contrition
    b : to change one's mind

    transitive verb
    1
    : to cause to feel regret or contrition

    2
    : to feel sorrow, regret, or contrition for
    re·pent·er noun



All of these put together is how the bible uses repentance.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

thanks Kenneth,

a big 'problem' is the way the 'religious media/preachers' have convinced multitudes
that all they need do is (recite a slogan) and then, REPENTANCE IS COMPLETE.

when in FACT, REPENTANCE SHOULD BE, a GUT WRENCHING, TEARFUL, POURING-OUT OF THE MOUTH -
the need to confess one's PAST SINS before Jesus Christ.

the PROOF, of course, is in THE TURNING AWAY from the OLD/MAN's/DEMONIC habits.
this is done according to the Holy Spirit's Timing.
also, a REPENTANT ATTITUDE should always be present in us.

as it is written:
God leads to Repentance, and God gives the Holy Spirit to those 'OBEY' Him.


there's not a ONE OF US living on this earth who hasn't at some point not wanted
to 'give-up' what they said that they would!!!!
the SPIRIT-STRENGTHING process takes time, is on-going.

living your REPENTANCE is the proof of our Life in Christ.
and brothers and sisters, if anyone says that this is instant and an easy thing to do,
then they have yet to step onto THE ROAD.
 
Jun 4, 2014
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#30
Yes we need works. Problem is what work are we to be doing. What we are doing now has ample evidence of where it leads to by those who've gone before. So unless we desire the same fate of death, we need to do HIS work!
 

Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
1,039
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#31
so the question is.

How can one have faith if they deny what God says about sin (in which case they would continue to live in sin)

can anyone answer this question?
Start another thread,

Both James and Paul agree on 'works' and 'obeying the will of God' so explain how you may think they differ?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#32
Start another thread,

Both James and Paul agree on 'works' and 'obeying the will of God' so explain how you may think they differ?
start another thread? the question fits. How can you say one has faith in God when they deny what God says about sin?

if you answer this question you just might see that James and paul are in agreement, and were never apposed.

plus I already did,

Paul said we are saved by faith not works, those who are saved WILL WORK

James said if we are not saved (no faith) we will not work.

they are in agreement.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#33
start another thread? the question fits. How can you say one has faith in God when they deny what God says about sin?

if you answer this question you just might see that James and paul are in agreement, and were never apposed.

plus I already did,

Paul said we are saved by faith not works, those who are saved WILL WORK

James said if we are not saved (no faith) we will not work.

they are in agreement.
A concept that neither one of the (perch) can grasp.......!
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
#34
I am not roman catholic (won't even capitalize it) and don't know why you bring it up, I explained the branch and fruit, you're taking it out of context and taking the OP off topic, so explain how you think James and Paul differ on works, or not?
7 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

King James Version (KJV)

We have to read the bible in context not in letter.

Matt 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

It is impossible good tree bear bad fruit.

It is impossible a man with real faith in Jesus not bear good fruit/work.

If you read in letter, look like James said there is a man with real faith in Jesus but not have good work.

If so than James not agree with Jesus (good tree must bear good fruit)

What Jesus said is similar to what apostle John said; If a man claim to Love the Lord but not Love his brother, he is liar.

Just don't believe what a man said, believe a man do.

It doesn't mean work produce salvation, it mean work is evident of salvation

James is sarcastic, James is only quip to a people claim to have a faith in Jesus but doing evil work.




 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#35
7 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

King James Version (KJV)

We have to read the bible in context not in letter.

Matt 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

It is impossible good tree bear bad fruit.

It is impossible a man with real faith in Jesus not bear good fruit/work.

If you read in letter, look like James said there is a man with real faith in Jesus but not have good work.

If so than James not agree with Jesus (good tree must bear good fruit)

What Jesus said is similar to what apostle John said; If a man claim to Love the Lord but not Love his brother, he is liar.

Just don't believe what a man said, believe a man do.

It doesn't mean work produce salvation, it mean work is evident of salvation
I don't think it is the case.


it is sarcastic, James is only quip to a people claim to have a faith in Jesus but doing evil work.




amen.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

for some reason, the totally ignore the bolded part. And think the person actually had faith at one time, then lost it.

they also ignore this part.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

It does not say they had some works. Had little works. Had alot of works at one time, but now has slacked and is not working or doing very little work. It says they have NO WORKS. ZERO,ZIP NADA.

so again to my question. How can one say they have faith, if they reject what God says about sin, and what he wants us to do to obey him? For it is they who will DO NO WORKS.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#36
amen.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

for some reason, the totally ignore the bolded part. And think the person actually had faith at one time, then lost it.

they also ignore this part.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

It does not say they had some works. Had little works. Had alot of works at one time, but now has slacked and is not working or doing very little work. It says they have NO WORKS. ZERO,ZIP NADA.

so again to my question. How can one say they have faith, if they reject what God says about sin, and what he wants us to do to obey him? For it is they who will DO NO WORKS.
It is rather simple really and many a man will compound and distort the (simplicity) that is found in Christ.....

Genuine faith--->saves-->someone with genuine saving faith will have at least one piece of fruit (work), but the work PRODUCED by genuine faith that they ALREADY HAVE will not save and or add to that salvation....the SIMPLISTICY that is found in CHRIST......period!
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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#37
James 2:24-------- works>>>>>>>>>>>>>justified
Rom 6:17,18-------obeyed>>>>>>>>>>>>freed from sins/justified

Both James and Paul are speaking of obedient works.......Abraham obeyed God's will and the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine > obeyed God's will.

Both James and Paul put obedient works BEFORE justification.


Perfect harmonization.
The only thing I agree with you on is the perfect harmonization part, for I know the bible is God perfect Word and there is no conflicts. Salvation is truly dependent on faith is Christ alone, a free gift....Paul clearly says Salvation is not of works so no man can boast. However, Paul says we are saved unto good works, meaning that once saved, it is our desire to work to please our Lord, not because we have too, but because we want to. Our works will show who we belong too. James says the same thing, we will know if someone is saved by their works. If they have no works all their life, chances are they aren't saved to begin with. Those who have the mark of the Lamb on their forehead and their hands have the faith by believing gospel, Christ crucified for our sins, Love for God in the forefront of their brains and their hands demonstrate what they believe by what their hands do (works).
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#38
James 2:24-------- works>>>>>>>>>>>>>justified
Rom 6:17,18-------obeyed>>>>>>>>>>>>freed from sins/justified

Both James and Paul are speaking of obedient works.......Abraham obeyed God's will and the Romans obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine > obeyed God's will.

Both James and Paul put obedient works BEFORE justification.


Perfect harmonization.
I hope you are not one of these people who said Lord, Lord, I did, I did, I did...and the Lords says depart from for I never knew you.
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
#39
The REASON for this schism in the Body -



Servetus was sentenced to death by Calvin in agreement with the RCC because he was against infant baptism and he had a differing view of the Triune Godhead ... believing in Incarnational Sonship rather than Origen's "eternal generation".


Calvin, who wrote his "Institutes" when he had only been saved two years .... "a novice" [1Tim 3:6,7]


While Servetus being tormented in the flames (they placed a wreath strewn with sulphur on his head and used green wood to prolong the agony of his death), Servetus cried out with a loud voice, “Jesus Christ, You Son of the eternal God, have mercy upon me!”


Farel, [Calvin's side-kick] later noted that Servetus could have been saved if he had shifted the words to say, “Jesus Christ, You eternal Son of God, have mercy upon me!”


So starts centuries worth of blood baths and burnings at the stake at the hands of those that followed this murderer ...


“Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt. This is not laid down on human authority; it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule for his Church. It is not in vain that he banishes all those human affections which soften our hearts; that he commands paternal love and all the benevolent feelings between brothers, relations, and friends to cease; in a word, that he almost deprives men of their nature in order that nothing may hinder their holy zeal. Why is so implacable a severity exacted but that we may know that God is defrauded of his honor, unless the piety that is due to him be preferred to all human duties, and that when his glory is to be asserted, humanity must be almost obliterated from our memories?” ~ John Calvin Defence of the Orthodox Faith in the Sacred Trinity


In a later letter written to a marquis, he wrote:


“Honor, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard.”


Another famous “reformer” that publicly and formally supported the persecution and murder of Servetus, Heinrich Bullinger, wrote to Calvin because even he was having reservations about his book:


“I only fear that your book will not be so acceptable to many of the more simple-minded persons, who, nevertheless, are attached both to yourself and to the truth, by reason of its brevity and consequent obscurity, and the weightiness of the subject. And, indeed, your style appears somewhat perplexed, especially in this work.”


In other words, 'Calvin, you come across as confounded and your arguments are unconvincing.'


Calvin wrote in reply:
“I am aware that I have been more concise than usual in this treatise. However, if I should appear to have faithfully and honestly defended the true doctrine, it will more than recompense me for my trouble. But though the candor and justice which are natural to you, as well as your love towards me, lead you to judge of me favorably, there are others who assail me harshly as a master in cruelty and atrocity, for attacking with my pen not only a dead man, but one who perished by my hands. Some, even not self-disposed towards me, wish that I had never entered on the subject of the punishment of heretics, and say that others in the like situation have held their tongues as the best way of avoiding hatred. It is well, however, that I have you to share my fault, if fault it be; for you it was who advised and persuaded me to it. Prepare yourself, therefore, for the combat.”


A professor of Greek Literature from nearby Basle, a translator of the Bible into French and Latin, Sebastian Castellion, wrote a pamphlet, “Whether Heretics Should be Persecuted,” completed three months after Calvin published his book justifying his persecution and execution of Servetus.
Castellion could not refrain from expressing horror and disgust at what Calvin had done in murdering another human being that disagreed with him:
“If those thus butchered had been, I will not say horses, but only swine, every prince would have considered he had sustained a grave loss.”


“However horribly these things may be,” Castellion wrote Calvin, “the sinners sin yet more horribly when they endeavor to wrap up their misdeeds in the raiment of Christ, and declare that they act in accordance with His will.”


Calvin was incensed: “A new heresy has been discovered,” he said. “We must stamp out this burst of hell-fire before it spreads over the surface of the earth.... Freedom of conscience is a doctrine of the devil.... Better to have a tyrant, however cruel, than permit everyone to do what he pleases.”


Did Castellion preach lawlessness? Not at all. He only said that one who murdered a man in the name of a doctrinal dispute cannot claim that Christ approved of this or taught him to do so. Hearing this did not please Calvin or allow him to rest in his compromised conscience.


Indeed, good to his word, Calvin did not permit anyone to do what did not please him. Castellion’s pamphlet made many truthful and excellent points, but no one was to hear them at that time because Calvin suppressed its publication. Nevertheless, Castellion’s message of truth hit home.

Castellion wrote to Calvin:

“Why do you do to others that which you would not endure if done to yourself? We are concerned with a dispute about religious matters; why, then, do you gag your adversaries?
“Your words and your weapons are only those common to every despotism; and they can but give you a temporal, not a spiritual dominance, a dominance based upon coercion, and not upon the love of God. Nor do I envy you your power and your weapons. I have other powers and other weapons--an imperturbable conviction of innocence, and trust in Him who will help me and give me grace. Even if, for a season, truth is suppressed by the blind ‘justice’ of this world, no one can permanently coerce truth. Let us cease to heed the judgment of a world which slew Christ; let us ignore an assize before which only the cause of violence proves victorious. The kingdom of God is not of this world.”


Castellion continued:
“It is absurd to use earthly weapons in spiritual warfare. The enemies of Christians are vices, and are to be overcome by virtues…. The cultivation of Christian character is neglected while Christians spend their time disputing speculative questions such as the nature of Christ, the Trinity, predestination, free will, the Eucharist and baptism. These are not necessary to salvation, and do not make a man better.”


Calvin, condemned by his own conscience, despised the liberty of conscience offered to others, which he had called a “diabolical doctrine.”
Castellion responded:

“What do we really mean by the term ‘heretic’? Whom are we entitled to call a heretic, without being unjust? I do not believe that all those termed heretics are really such. When I reflect on what a heretic really is, I can find no other criterion than that we are all heretics in the eyes of those who do not share our views.”


Castellion spoke of the foolishness of compelling men to abide in a certain doctrinal belief in God without having their own sure conviction:
“Those who wish to win over the largest possible number of supporters willy-nilly resemble a fool who has a barrel containing only a little wine, and fills it up with water in order to have more wine. The result is not to increase the wine, but to spoil the good wine which the fool already had. It is preposterous to assert that those who are forced to profess a belief really believe what they profess. Were they free to follow their own inclinations, they would say: ‘What I sincerely believe is that you are unjust and tyrannical, and that what you have compelled me to profess is false.’ Bad wine is not made good by forcing people to drink it.”


In another place, Castellion wrote:
“Men are so strongly convinced of the soundness of their opinions that they despise the opinions of others. Cruelties and persecutions are the outcome of arrogance, so that a man will not tolerate others’ differing in any way from his own views, although there are today almost as many views as there are persons. Yet there is not one sect which does not condemn all the others and wish to reign supreme. That accounts for banishments, exiles, incarcerations, burnings, hangings, and the blind fury of the tormentors who are continually at work, in the endeavor to suppress certain outlooks which displease our lords and masters.”


Calvin, justifying the murder of Servetus, said it was his mission to save Christianity - the gangrenous limb had to be amputated. To which Castellion replied, “There is nowhere in the gospels, nor yet in any moral treatise ever given to the world, the demand for such intolerance. Will you dare, in the last resort, to say that Jesus himself taught you to burn your fellow men? Who burns a man does not defend a doctrine, but only burns a man.”

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I tried to think of a name that probably all would know and could only come up David Wilkerson, a close friend to Keith Green and Leonard Ravenhill.


Now, if Wilkerson killed even just one person that didn't agree with his own beliefs - WHO on earth WOULD have FOLLOWED him?


Calvin's doctrine started with blood and ends with blood when one says that one can definitely kill themselves and still get to Heaven. Sure, if you can kill others wh]at's the difference - besides his OSAS in what's called TULIP lets him and his followers "Do as thou wilt".... [who said that?]
 

Jabberjaw

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2014
1,039
7
38
#40


Paul said we are saved by faith not works, those who are saved WILL WORK
Paul said we are saved by obedient faith, not keeping the Mosaic Law.

Romans 1:5 (NKJV) Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
James said if we are not saved (no faith) we will not work.

they are in agreement.
James said faith without works is dead, so both are required meaning nobody is saved by faith alone, Paul says one must be obedient to the faith.

They are both in agreement that "faith alone" will not save you, it requires (like Abraham) obedient faith (righteous works)