Paul did NOT die to the law!

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Eccl12and13

Guest
#81
Galatians 3:18-19
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What law was added because of transgressions?

What law was added to God's already existing laws?

What law was added because God's already existing laws continued to be broken?


To those reading this post.......if you would like an explanation as to what (2) laws Paul spoke of throughout his writings please read the posts below which can be found in this forum;

"What was the LAW that was Added?

"This is the LAW that was added to God's Other Laws" Part 1

"This is the LAW that was added to God's Other Laws" Part 2


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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
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#82
What law was added because of transgressions?

What law was added to God's already existing laws?

What law was added because God's already existing laws continued to be broken?


To those reading this post.......if you would like an explanation as to what (2) laws Paul spoke of throughout his writings please read the posts below which can be found in this forum;

"What was the LAW that was Added?

"This is the LAW that was added to God's Other Laws" Part 1

"This is the LAW that was added to God's Other Laws" Part 2


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There is only one Law Paul spoke of throughout his writings.

The Law given to Moses on tables of stone.

That was the Law that was added because of transgression.

Hebrews 7:11-28
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

Its all right there. The Law didn't make anything perfect. But the bringing in of another hope does, which causes us to draw closer to God. That hope, our only Hope, is the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Eccl12and13

Guest
#83
There is only one Law Paul spoke of throughout his writings.

The Law given to Moses on tables of stone.

That was the Law that was added because of transgression.
Let's break this down.....

What does it mean to transgress?

To transgress: - act in disregard of laws, rules, contracts, or promises; "offend all laws of humanity"; "violate the basic laws or human civilization"; "break a law"; "break a promise"

commit a sin; violate a law of god or a moral law


So now let's read God's word once again;

Gal.3
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What purpose did the law serve? The law was ADDED because of transgressions. And what does it mean to transgress? It means that some OTHER laws are being broken.

God added the laws of the Levites, the killing of animals for the forgiveness of sins, because all of His other laws continued to be broken.

Consider this.....

Lev.4
[2] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

So we have someone that has committed a sin, they TRANSGRESSED a law of God. What is their recourse? What must they do to have their transgression forgiven? Let's read.....

[4] And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.


So this is what is to be done when an individual transgress a law of God. Now let's read what is to be done when the entire congregation transgress God's laws;

[13] And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;
[14] When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.
[15] And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD.


Now how long were the laws of killing animals for the transgression of God's laws to last?

"....till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

The laws that were ADDED were only to be around until the death of Jesus.


Readers.....consider this....what does it mean to ADD something to something?

Added: - make an addition (to); join or combine or unite with others; increase the quality, quantity,

Now....let's read God's word again;

Gal.3
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

God ADDED the laws of the Levites to His already existing laws...those that continued to be transgressed.


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Eccl12and13

Guest
#84
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,)



Then what law was it that the people received from the Levites in the above verse?


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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#85
Let's break this down.....

What does it mean to transgress?

To transgress: - act in disregard of laws, rules, contracts, or promises; "offend all laws of humanity"; "violate the basic laws or human civilization"; "break a law"; "break a promise"

commit a sin; violate a law of god or a moral law


So now let's read God's word once again;

Gal.3
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What purpose did the law serve? The law was ADDED because of transgressions. And what does it mean to transgress? It means that some OTHER laws are being broken.

God added the laws of the Levites, the killing of animals for the forgiveness of sins, because all of His other laws continued to be broken.

Consider this.....

Lev.4
[2] Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

So we have someone that has committed a sin, they TRANSGRESSED a law of God. What is their recourse? What must they do to have their transgression forgiven? Let's read.....

[4] And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.


So this is what is to be done when an individual transgress a law of God. Now let's read what is to be done when the entire congregation transgress God's laws;

[13] And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;
[14] When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.
[15] And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD.


Now how long were the laws of killing animals for the transgression of God's laws to last?

"....till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator."

The laws that were ADDED were only to be around until the death of Jesus.


Readers.....consider this....what does it mean to ADD something to something?

Added: - make an addition (to); join or combine or unite with others; increase the quality, quantity,

Now....let's read God's word again;

Gal.3
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

God ADDED the laws of the Levites to His already existing laws...those that continued to be transgressed.


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You are twisting scripture through your philosophy.

The Law was given because people transgressed against God.

Hebrews 7 tells you that the Law was given under the Levitical priesthood. Not that the Levitical priesthood was an entirely different Law.

Under the Levitical Priesthood the people received the Law. The 10 commandments and the means of atonement.

The Lord Jesus did much more for us than merely stop us from sacrificing animals. He caused Gods Law to no longer condemn us. We are no longer under Law, we are no longer under that condemnation.

We are righteous before God, not because of our performance of His Law, but because of the sacrifice of His Son.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#86
Then what law was it that the people received from the Levites in the above verse?


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All the Law. The 10 commandments and all the ordinances and statutes of the Levitical priesthood.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#87
You are twisting scripture through your philosophy.

The Law was given because people transgressed against God.

Hebrews 7 tells you that the Law was given under the Levitical priesthood. Not that the Levitical priesthood was an entirely different Law.

Under the Levitical Priesthood the people received the Law. The 10 commandments and the means of atonement.

The Lord Jesus did much more for us than merely stop us from sacrificing animals. He caused Gods Law to no longer condemn us. We are no longer under Law, we are no longer under that condemnation.

We are righteous before God, not because of our performance of His Law, but because of the sacrifice of His Son.

Amen. All it takes is one sin, and you are condemned already for all eternity minus the death of Christ. If this guy has any sin in his life. he has no hope apart from Christ. Sadly he seems to be trusting his ability to be good. rather than trusting in Christ.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#89
What does it mean to transgress against God?


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To reject His Grace is to transgress Him.

Like murmuring against His Provision (manna).

Like making idols and worshipping them instead of the Living God.

Like wishing they (children of Israel) were back in Egypt instead of being freed (led by God).
 
Jan 11, 2013
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#90
Peter gives us a warning about the writings of Paul.....and for a very good reason. Paul's writings are HARD to understand.

Let's look at Romans Chapter 7:


Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Right from the start what does Paul ask us to consider? Are the laws of God bad? And what does he tell us? NO!!! He then goes on to say....if it were not for the laws of God he would not have known that it was wrong to covet.

Now readers....do you believe Paul stopped reading at this one law of do not covet? Of course not! Paul was a student of God's word. He knew ALL of God's laws. So NO....he did not stop at "Do not covet.". Let's continue with chap. 7;

[8] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Above Paul tells us that because of the knowledge of God's laws, this knowledge made him aware of all manner of lustful desires. For before Paul knew God's laws....sin was dead to him. He didn't know that what he was doing was wrong in the eyes of the Lord. Let's continue.....

[9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Above Paul tells us that we was alive without God's laws. Now what do you think he meant? He meant the same thing and felt the same way we all did before knowing that certain actions were wrong in the eyes of God. We thought we were alive and living it up. Doing what we wanted, when we wanted and not having to give account to anyone.

But what happened when Paul became aware of God's laws? What happened when the "...commandment came..."? Sin was made know to him. When he read that it was wrong to covet....that old Paul...the one that was living it up had to die. The LAW did NOT die. The old man....the man that was living it up had to die. Paul did NOT die to the law. God's laws made Paul aware that what he was doing was wrong and that old Paul is the one that died. Let's read more....

[10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Readers....please take note to what Paul says above. Let's read it closely again;


"And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."


Paul tells us that God's laws were ordained to LIFE. Now what life could Paul be speaking of? He was already alive! The life that the laws would give, if kept, was ETERNAL LIFE! That is what God's laws give to those that keep them. We have proof of this throughout the entire bible. Keeping God's laws could give not only eternal life....but doing as God commands could also give physical life. Consider the days of Noah. Consider the punishment of Sodom. Consider the nation of Israel.

And of course we know what Jesus tells us gives life eternal; Keeping God's commandments. Let's prove this with scripture;

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Keeping the laws and commandments of God allows entrance into His kingdom. Now let's continue to what else happened to Paul when God's commandments were made known to him;

"...I found to be unto death."

And what was it that died? Again.....Paul already told us. It was that old Paul that died. Once Paul became aware of God's laws and the knowledge of sin...that old Paul...the one, just like us, that was living it up had to die. Paul could not go on serving 2 masters. Either he had to serve God or serve sin. Paul chose to serve God and obey His laws. Let's continue....

[12] Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Again Paul tells us that God's laws are HOLY, JUST and GOOD! How could it be that such laws were nailed to Christ's cross? How could these laws that Paul says, were ordained to give life, no longer be needed or kept?

[13] Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Paul presents us with another question. He asks... Could that which was good, speaking of God's laws, cause him to die? Could keeping God's laws cause Paul to die? Again he tells us NO! But what was it that caused death in Paul? Knowing what sin was and that he could not continue therein caused him to die. Not only that...but now having the knowledge of God's laws made sin appear even MORE sinful.



Readers.....Paul did NOT die to the law. We are NOT dead to God's laws. The knowledge of God's laws brings about death to the old Paul....to the old US.


God's laws are ordained to life....life ETERNAL!



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I guess the first question to consider is which law Paul is saying we die to as Christians. It is helpful to read the three verses prior to 7-13 that you have quoted of Rom ch7:

So my brothers, you also died to the law so that you might live for another, to him who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God.
For when we were controlled by our sinful nature, the sinfull passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies so that we bore fruit for death
But now, by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

It is intersting to note in the above that a person must die to a righteousness of law in order to bear fruit for God. The question then is, which law does a person die to.?
In the next five verses Paul gives a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to the law:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Nay, I had not known sin but by the law: for I had not known lust except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came(one of the Ten Commandments) sin revived and I died.
And the commanndment which was ordained to life I found to be unto death
For sin, taking occasion by the commandmnet decieved me, and by in slew me.

Sol Paul is saying a person dies to the whole law.

Paul says that he had not know sin but by the law, but when the commandment came, sin took occasion by it to produce all kinds of concupiscence in Paul. Because of this, Paul felt condemned.

How could sin use the law to make Paul feel condemned?

We all have a basic sinful nature. Once we know according to the good and Holy laws of God what God requires, then, our natural sinful nature is stirred into life to rebel and disobey the good and Holy laws of God, as a child will find excitement in breaking the good rules a loving parent gives them, it is basic human nature to do so, to express itself in opposition to what is good.

But, if the rules/laws have no power over a person(they cannot condemn them), this cannot then happen, sins power is weakened in a believers life, for the power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

Thus as Paul stated

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14
 
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psychomom

Guest
#91
Thus as Paul stated

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14
look at the beautiful certainty of it! :)

see how Great God is!
how Good He is to His own!

Thanks for your post, Mark, and welcome to CC. :)
-ellie
 
Jan 11, 2013
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#92
Readers....let's be real for a moment and ask ourselves the following questions....


How many people just enjoy admitting when they are wrong and going to say you are sorry?

How many people just love it when they know their enemies are attacking them, but they say nothing?

How many people just cannot wait to have their feelings hurt undeserving, and sit back and take it with a smile?

How many wake up in the morning and say to themselves..... "I can't wait to have to turn my cheek today?"



NONE of us look forward to doing those things mentioned above....and many more. And PLEASE do not insult us and tell us you do it because you just, "...WANT to do the right thing?"!


Why do we do it?


We do it because we know it's the RIGHT thing to do! We do it because God COMMANDS that we do it! We do it because it is God's LAW!

We do it because we know if we do not it will keep us from getting into God's kingdom.



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Two children are born. The first under normal conditions. When the child is old enough to understand simple rules, the parents give these to the child because they love them and want what's best for them.
But once the child is given these rules, there is huge excitement, allurement stirred in them to break the rules, and part of the excitement is seeing if they can get away without being caught and face punishemnt for breaking the rules, that is basic human nature(or sin if you like for an adult)
If the child was not given these rules by their parents, they would, inevitabley sometimes be drawn to do what they should not do, but the allure would not be as great. The natural basic, human nature to rebel, springs into life once rules are given, and that nature expresses itself in rebellion against the good rules/commands that are given. Therefore the sin, or basic nature to rebel that is instinctive to the human being uses what is good to condemn us.

A second child is born, but this one not under normal conditions, but supernaturally. This child, in their heart wants to obey the rules, . it is instinctive to them, therefore their parents don't need to give them a long list of rules as to what they should or should not do, they know them already, they are written in their heart you could say. And because the child wants to obey and their parents know this to be true, their parents will not punish them, when as a child does they slip up sometimes and make mistakes/ break the rules.
The child understands this and knows they are secure, loved of their parents despite their imperfections. For them there is no fear of faliure to obey given rules, no fear of punishment, for they have no literal, or spoken rules that can stand against them and bring punishment, for the rules are within them.Therefore, the allure/excitement that is stirred into life to rebel against the given rules is not there, for without the power to condemn/bring punishment, rules have no power.

Now which of those two children do you think will better obey the good rules/commands that should be obeyed?
 
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zell

Guest
#93
the law was fulfilled by JESUS,but before HE fulfilled the law HE said these word '' the work I do yow shall do and even greater''. so with that being said the fact that HE fulfilled a thing means that HE gave me power over it so their is no reason why we should not do what he commands. Did JESUS not say if you loved him we should keep his commandments; thats what it all boils down to if we really love THE LORD we will seek to please him
 
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MidniteWelder

Guest
#94
By committing no sin, He thereby fulfilled the Law.
The law is not for the righteous but for the unrighteous.
If anyone think they are righteous enough to be above the law, go for it. Even Christ adhered to the law.
 
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Eccl12and13

Guest
#95
To reject His Grace is to transgress Him.

Like murmuring against His Provision (manna).

Like making idols and worshipping them instead of the Living God.

Like wishing they (children of Israel) were back in Egypt instead of being freed (led by God).

Why do you not use the words that the scriptures use? Why do you make up your own definitions?

Let's read what God's word, NOT yours, says means to transgress against God;


1 John 3
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

To transgress means to break God's laws!


Now let's read AGAIN why a law was added;

Gal.3
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,

How plain is this? A law was ADDED because of transgressions.

And what does it mean to transgress? It means to BREAK GOD'S LAWS.

SO what do we have? A law was ADDED because God's LAWS were being TRANSGRESSED!

So what was the law that was ADDED? The ONLY law that could temporally forgive transgressions, or sin; The laws of killing animals for the forgiveness of sin. The Laws of the Levitical Priesthood,


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Eccl12and13

Guest
#96
The law is not for the righteous but for the unrighteous.

And why is God's law not for the righteous? Because the righteous are KEEPING God's laws. God's laws are to let those that are sinners know what it is that God does not like.

Consider this.......are there things, acts, or even people you know longer see because you became aware of the laws of God?

Now what do you think would happen if you went BACK to doing those things and hanging around those people that you once did? Would God approve? Do you think He would let you into His kingdom after you came into the knowledge of His word, know the difference between right and wrong, but continued to do what you used to do? Why do you not go back to your old lifestyle?


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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#97
Why do you not use the words that the scriptures use? Why do you make up your own definitions?

Let's read what God's word, NOT yours, says means to transgress against God;


1 John 3
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

To transgress means to break God's laws!


Make up my own definitions?

People transgressed against God before He gave His Law. That was the whole reason it (the Law) was given, because of transgression.

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The Law. Not a certain Law. The Law. The whole thing. It was ALL added because of transgression.

Till the seed should come to whom the Promise was made.

The better Way!!!


Now let's read AGAIN why a law was added;

Gal.3
[19] Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions,

How plain is this? A law was ADDED because of transgressions.

And what does it mean to transgress? It means to BREAK GOD'S LAWS.

SO what do we have? A law was ADDED because God's LAWS were being TRANSGRESSED!

So what was the law that was ADDED? The ONLY law that could temporally forgive transgressions, or sin; The laws of killing animals for the forgiveness of sin. The Laws of the Levitical Priesthood,
You are trying to make this a logical argument but you aren't using logic. God's Law couldn't be transgressed against before it was given. But God could be transgressed against before His Law was given. Do you see? Do you want to see would probably be a better question...?

THE law. Not a law. Nowhere does it say 'a law was added'. It says the law, it was added. And then it describes why it was added, because of transgression.

It doesn't say because of transgression of Gods law. It was because of transgression against God Himself!!

Transgressing against God didn't mean breaking His Law before He gave it.

Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Until the law... what law... THE Law given under the Levitical Priesthood. Because of transgression...

 
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Eccl12and13

Guest
#98
God's Law couldn't be transgressed against before it was given.



And this is your problem.....you THINK that God's laws did not exist until they were given to Moses...and this is just not the case.


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Eccl12and13

Guest
#99
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Until the law... what law... THE Law given under the Levitical Priesthood. Because of transgression...



Let's look at the ENTIRE verse;

Rom.5
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

What was in the world until the law? SIN!

And what is sin?

1 John 3
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is the breaking of God's laws.

So what is Paul saying?

Until the law....there was still sin (The breaking of God's laws) in the world. But sin (The breaking of God's laws) is not done away with, when there is no law.

So we still had the breaking of God's laws BEFORE there was ANOTHER law!

Now what was this OTHER law that was added because God's already existing laws continued to be broken? The laws of the Levites and the killing of animals for the forgiveness of sins.


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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
And this is your problem.....you THINK that God's laws did not exist until they were given to Moses...and this is just not the case.


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Did you read Romans 5:13??

Until the Law tells you that there was a time BEFORE the Law.

God is eternal. His Law was given at a certain point in time, because of transgression...

You can't put saved Christians back under the condemnation of the Law, it won't work. You'll have to go somewhere they don't know the Lord, or His Word.

Matthew 23:29-33
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

There is a way to escape the damnation. Only One Way. You should do some studying on that.