Paul's Conversion

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SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
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#81
I posted something quite similar to your post a few minutes later. Didn't know you had said this before I posted. Funny coincidence.
yeah I just read it

great minds think alike, right? (jking)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#82
Paul was no different from any other person as far as his needing to be born again. Afterward Jesus gave Paul insight that equipped him to fulfill his personal ministry. The insight given in no way changed the NT mandate initially given to each group of humanity by Peter.
Yes, Paul was given insight, but you have turned a blind eye to the attributes of Paul that God used if that is all you understand.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#84
Please look at what the word actually says:

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16
Christ’s blood washed away my sins not water.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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#86
I hate to be sarcastic towards anyone but this needs to be said.

Wansvic is so hung-up on water, I wonder if he thinks Pharaoh's chariot army was baptized when the red sea collapsed upon them. Maybe the Earth was baptized in the Great Flood.

Sorry just could not help myself.
I have been sat for the last hour or two thinking should I respond to the post above or not?

I see the sense of humour, it's one that I have as well.
My humour was based on sarcasm and non sarcasm.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit since its aim is to belittle or hurt someone, and to laugh at their expense;

Whilst I find this funny and others do we need to be careful not to hurt or belittle someone, whether they are in Christ or not.

Not going at you because I have been and can be sarcastic.

I need to temper my sarcasm and I just ask we all do that.
If not it just builds barriers.

Just so you all know i am not being holier than thou.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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#87
I just think I am as tired of this nonsense as you are.
We all are.
Truth is it will not be resolved until Jesus comes back.
Whilst we are alive we should continue to refute it and help those who have been exposed to this heresy and teach them the truth to release the chains they have been given.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#88
Many see Paul's experience where Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus as the point in which he received his conversion. (Acts 9:3-6) This is not the case. How can this be known? Because we see his sins were not washed away at that moment. Nor had he received the Holy Ghost. It is at this point, however, that Jesus makes the following statement:

Acts 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

What Ananias tells Paul he must do in Acts 9:10-18 and Acts 22:16 parallels exactly what Jesus, Peter, Philip, and Paul himself later told others they must do. After believing in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection everyone, including Paul, was required to be water baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin and receive the Holy Ghost.

Paul's experience is one more example within the word that no one is exempt. All must obey God's NT mandate.
Jesus speaks our salvstion first he called and approved Paul and converted him from Judaism which he was a champion of , to Christianity which he began to persecute the church and then met Jesus himself

until jesusnsooke and appeared to Paul he was an enemy of Christ , when he was blinded three days and healed by the word to Ananias who obeyed the lords word, and delivered it to Paul as he was told by Jesus to do

Paul believed because he had experienced it baptism became an automatic result of his new faith believing in Jesus alone and casting away the law of Moses embracing the New Testament which yes indeed requires the same process the gospel began with repentance of what we knew and believed , and belief of what God has said about eternal
Life

baptism matters because it was the promise made of Christ in the ot about remission of sins , his instruction is why it mattered that Paul get baptized it only shows the gospel hasn’t changed even for Paul it was the same baptism for repentance and remission and faith in Christ is salvstion but the faith of hearing him not rejecting him

Paul’s entire new life was because Jesus chose and appointed him to be his witness of his gospel a steward of salvstion and witness of the lord Jesus and his word that saved Paul and converted him from sinner to the great apostle we love so dearly , but who can never compare to Jesus Christ and his truth
 

Omegatime

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
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#89
Acts 2:5 for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#90
Acts 2:5 for John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

water is for remission of our sins , the spirit comes through belief
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#91
Paul’s entire new life was because Jesus chose and appointed him to be his witness of his gospel a steward of salvstion and witness of the lord Jesus and his word that saved Paul and converted him from sinner to the great apostle we love so dearly , but who can never compare to Jesus Christ and his truth
These are excellent observations about Paul being chosen.

If we would look at the attributes God looked for in the man God chose to be his apostle to the gentiles we will see things God looks for in us to make us His disciples, like an understanding of both Jews and gentiles and a thorough knowledge of the old testament scripture.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#92
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

water is for remission of our sins , the spirit comes through belief
And yet no mention Of baptism anywhere in John three. Even when Jesus told nicodemus how to be born again in vs 16. No mention of baptism. Yet people want to insert baptism where it does not belong
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#94
Many see Paul's experience where Jesus appeared to him on the road to Damascus as the point in which he received his conversion. (Acts 9:3-6) This is not the case. How can this be known? Because we see his sins were not washed away at that moment. Nor had he received the Holy Ghost. It is at this point, however, that Jesus makes the following statement:

Acts 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Suffering for the Lord's sake was what Paul must do. Acts 9:15 - But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”

What Ananias tells Paul he must do in Acts 9:10-18 and Acts 22:16 parallels exactly what Jesus, Peter, Philip, and Paul himself later told others they must do. After believing in Jesus' death, burial and resurrection everyone, including Paul, was required to be water baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin and receive the Holy Ghost.
In regards to Acts 22:16, as Greek scholar AT Robertson points out, baptism here pictures the washing away of sins by the blood of Christ, but it does not literally wash away our sins, contrary to your conclusion. Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary makes not of the importance of the Greek in Ananias' statement. When Ananias tells Paul to "arise, be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord," the tense of the last command is literally "having called" (aorist middle participle). "Calling on [epikalesamenos] --- 'having (that is, after having) called on,' referring the confession of Christ which preceded baptism." [Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, vol. 3 pg. 160]. Kenneth Wuest picks up on this Greek nuance and translates the verse as follows: "And now, why are you delaying? Having arisen, be baptized and wash away your sins, having previously called upon His Name." (Acts 22:16, Wuest's Expanded NT).

In Acts 10:43, receiving remission of sins is connected with "believes in Him" and not with baptism (Acts 10:43-47). In Acts 9, Jesus told Ananias that Paul "is a chosen vessel unto Me" (vs 15), although the apostle had not yet been water baptized. Before Paul was baptized, Christ had already commissioned him to "bear His name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15) and such a commission is not for one who is still lost in their sins. Before Paul’s baptism, Christ had set him aside as one who would "suffer for His name’s sake" (9:16). Can one who is a child of the devil, as all the lost are (Ephesians 2:1-3, John 8:44), really suffer for Christ’s sake? NO.

So, Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was BEFORE he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html

*It's interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was still lost in his sins.

No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

Paul's experience is one more example within the word that no one is exempt. All must obey God's NT mandate.
Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. *What happened to baptism?

Also, in Acts 13:38-39, we read - Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 16:30 - And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.” *What happened to baptism?

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me. *What happened to baptism?

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. *What happened to baptism?

Romans 3:24 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. *What happened to baptism?

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *What happened to baptism?

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. *What happened to baptism?
 
Feb 16, 2017
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#95
ummm...be careful here cause that is not true
I'm not Pentecostal or Charismatic, but they do not all teach that...some do...just as some teach you are not saved unless you are water baptized
not all who believe the gifts are still in operation believe the same
let's not paint with such a broad brush. it is not helpful and creates suspicion and division

Truth is going to cause division.
That will never change.


Here is the reality...

Regarding their statement of Faith.....or the core fundamental doctrines, of these.....

All Pentecostal denominations, teach, that you can lose your salvation.
As Does the Catholic Church.
So, if there are members of these denominations that dont believe that, then that is just a few members who are outside their church's doctrine.

All of these teach that you can lose your salvation...

The Assembly of God Church
The Church of the Nazarene
The Methodist Church
The Lutheran Church
THe United Pentecostals
THe Church of Christ

and more.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#96
The thief was under the Old Testament mandate. The NT rebirth experience was only available after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, and the pouring out of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost.
A common argument used in an attempt to "get around" the thief on the cross being saved through faith "apart from water baptism" is, "the thief was not subject to baptism because he died under the Old Testament mandate.

So let's see, after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, in Acts 2:38, we read - "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.." and before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, while still under the Old Testament mandate, in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, we read - John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

So in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, was this baptism of repentance FOR (in order to obtain) the remission of sins or was it or FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) the remission of sins received upon repentance? It would have to be the latter in order to agree with the Old Testament mandate argument from water-salvationists. In Matthew 3:11, we read: I baptize you with water FOR repentance.. Now did John baptize with water "in order to obtain" repentance or FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) repentance? Obviously, the latter.

Whatever baptism is "for" in Acts 2:38, it's "for" in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3 - "in regards to" remission of sins received upon repentance. So the water baptism is not necessary for salvation under the Old Testament mandate, but is necessary for salvation under the New Testament mandate argument is bogus and doesn't hold water.

Under the Old Testament and the New Testament mandate, salvation is through belief/faith "apart from water baptism" (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 13:39; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
 
Feb 16, 2017
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#97
so are you calling Charismatics a cult ?

Do you define yourself by your denomination, or do you define yourself as a child of God?
It can't be both.

And i hope you understand that there are no denominations in heaven, there are only born again Christians, God, Christ, and host of Heaven.

Denominations are MAN MADE.......not God Created.
Denominations keep believers apart, and in some cases, that has to be so.

So, you asked me if Charismatics are a cult....

Well......It depends on the specific denomination, and what they teach., as its what is being taught that defines a cult.

The United Pentecostals for example, are a cult.

So, in regards to how Pentecostals approach "SALVATiON"< is usually a real issue, and how they approach their obsession with "tongues" and "the infilling, or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit", can be completely anti-New Testament.

For example, teaching that unless you "speak in tongues" you are not really born again, is incredible heresy.
Or to teach that "there is a 2nd infilling that is the baptism of the holy spirit", is completely the invention of Pentecostals.

So, it just depends on how far out they are, per denomination.........and as i said....the "word of faith" Pentecostals, are in general not caught up in the deeper heresies.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#98
You said verse 43 states those who believe in him will received remission of sins. The scripture actually states "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.” Now notice what occurs in verses 47-48: Peter commands them to be water baptized in the name of the Lord.

There is a distinct difference in the scripture's meaning from what you think it says and what it actually says.

“Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.
Peter commands them to be water baptized (vs. 48) AFTER they believed in Him, received the gift of the Holy Spirit (which is only for the body of Christ) and spoke in tongues (spiritual gift which is only for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE they received water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#99
Jesus speaking - "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:15-16
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions nine different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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The enemy has been twisting scripture concepts for years. See what James says about Abraham. It contradicts what is preached today as truth. True faith/belief will always prompt action/obedience. And in doing so faith is made perfect. Not a popular concept, but nonetheless fact according to scripture.

James 2:20-24
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims he has faith, but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the 'sense' in which Abraham was 'justified by works.' He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.”

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness. Luke 6:45 - A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the 'sense' in which God was 'justified.' He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."