Pauls fear for the Church, To returnn to ritualism of the law

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eternally-gratefull

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#1
#1
As I was studying Galatians yesterday, to confirm what was said in church in a study of galations 4. I was dumbfounded by the truth about this passage which I had not yet seen.

lets take a look at it.

Gal 4: [SUP]8 [/SUP]But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods

Paul told them, before they knew who God was, they served pagan Gods, and with it all the ritualism and laws which they were to obey. who were not really Gods at all.

Gal 4: [SUP]9 [/SUP]But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? [SUP]10 [/SUP]You observe days and months and seasons and years. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

But now that they have known God, they return to ritualism and laws (only this time mosaic law, which is the context of the passage, returning to law) And claims this is not a good thing, THIS IS A BAD THING, so bad in fact, Paul fears thay he has done all his labours to bring them to Christ and restore their fellowship to God in vein.

Thoughts?

Is paul saying going from ritualistic paganism to ritualistic mosaic law is just as dangerous to our walk with God?
 
Willie-T

Willie-T

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Feb 7, 2015
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Yep, I think you nailed it.
 
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Alextor

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#3
#3
eternally-gratefull said:
As I was studying Galatians yesterday, to confirm what was said in church in a study of galations 4. I was dumbfounded by the truth about this passage which I had not yet seen.

lets take a look at it.

Gal 4: [SUP]8 [/SUP]But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods

Paul told them, before they knew who God was, they served pagan Gods, and with it all the ritualism and laws which they were to obey. who were not really Gods at all.

Gal 4: [SUP]9 [/SUP]But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? [SUP]10 [/SUP]You observe days and months and seasons and years. [SUP]11 [/SUP]I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

But now that they have known God, they return to ritualism and laws (only this time mosaic law, which is the context of the passage, returning to law) And claims this is not a good thing, THIS IS A BAD THING, so bad in fact, Paul fears thay he has done all his labours to bring them to Christ and restore their fellowship to God in vein.

Thoughts?

Is paul saying going from ritualistic paganism to ritualistic mosaic law is just as dangerous to our walk with God?
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yes that is what he is saying. and if you have read some of the post on this forum you will know why. the understanding you have just been given did not come from man. thank God our Father.
 
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psalm6819

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#4
#4
specifically by the vein of Jesus thru which His blood flowed :)
 
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psalm6819

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#5
#5
but to the poin tof the OP yes, Paul feared return to legalism, that is not to say the precepts taught in the OT were/are wrong or bad but NOT a means of salvation; not works oriented earned salvation
 
GracethroughfaithinChrist

GracethroughfaithinChrist

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Sep 6, 2014
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Amen, and might it be said as well.......

2 Corinthians 3:12-16
12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.


Galatians 4:5
to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#7
#7
psalm6819 said:
but to the poin tof the OP yes, Paul feared return to legalism, that is not to say the precepts taught in the OT were/are wrong or bad but NOT a means of salvation; not works oriented earned salvation
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I do not think paul was speaking of salvation in this aspect of his letter.

I think he was talking about our relationship with God.

Do we relate to God as sons and daughters, or do we relate to God in religious ceremony, religious calanders, and religious tradition.?
 
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kennethcadwell

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#8
#8
Yes the Apostle Paul was as he was showing that anything no matter what it be if you place it before God, then you turn it into a sin of unbelief do to idolatry. At first they gave their life to false Gods, until Christ was preached and given to them. Then after receiving Christ and walking in the faith for a little while they then do to false teaching went to being justified by the law. The law became their main focus instead of Christ, therefore the law became where their faith and trust was in.
 
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psalm6819

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#9
#9
eternally-gratefull said:
I do not think paul was speaking of salvation in this aspect of his letter.

I think he was talking about our relationship with God.

Do we relate to God as sons and daughters, or do we relate to God in religious ceremony, religious calanders, and religious tradition.?
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sorry for the levity re vein/vain; I understand this was not about salvation but our relationship as sons/daughters not servants of law or traditions
 
notuptome

notuptome

Senior Member
#10
May 17, 2013
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#10
eternally-gratefull said:
I do not think paul was speaking of salvation in this aspect of his letter.

I think he was talking about our relationship with God.

Do we relate to God as sons and daughters, or do we relate to God in religious ceremony, religious calanders, and religious tradition.?
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That's it! We are adopted and no longer estranged from God. We are able to approach God as His children whom He loves.

The god of paganism is always distant and requires sacrifices through rituals and rites. Paganism is mystic and their god is unknowable.

God in order to restore us became like us and died for us. If He withheld not His only Son how shall He withhold any good thing from us?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#11
#11
kennethcadwell said:
Yes the Apostle Paul was as he was showing that anything no matter what it be if you place it before God, then you turn it into a sin of unbelief do to idolatry. At first they gave their life to false Gods, until Christ was preached and given to them. Then after receiving Christ and walking in the faith for a little while they then do to false teaching went to being justified by the law. The law became their main focus instead of Christ, therefore the law became where their faith and trust was in.
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again, I am not sure that is exactly what paul was speaking of. he already dealt with that issue,

I think he is talking about ritualism as a means of relating to God. If I am to be a good little chritian boy and make God love me, then I have to make sure I do these rituals, and follow all these calander days and festivals and fiests. and these rules and regulations, That is what God wants.

You go to many traditional churches, and that is all you see. from the moment someone opens prayer till the closing prayer, ritual, repetition, and because we do these things, we think ourself holy, and looked favorably on by God.

is this really what God wants? or does he want a Father/Son Father/Daughter relationship?
 
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Alextor

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#12
#12
eternally-gratefull said:
again, I am not sure that is exactly what paul was speaking of. he already dealt with that issue,

I think he is talking about ritualism as a means of relating to God. If I am to be a good little chritian boy and make God love me, then I have to make sure I do these rituals, and follow all these calander days and festivals and fiests. and these rules and regulations, That is what God wants.

You go to many traditional churches, and that is all you see. from the moment someone opens prayer till the closing prayer, ritual, repetition, and because we do these things, we think ourself holy, and looked favorably on by God.

is this really what God wants? or does he want a Father/Son Father/Daughter relationship?
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The devil will do what ever he can to make you doubt the understanding given you.
Paul was appointed our minister by our Lord Jesus Christ, and Peter was the first given permission to preach to us, the Gentiles. Suggest you read Acts 15:5-11.

Yes our Father wants a Father/son/daughter relationship with us. We are to come boldly to Him before His throne, not cowarding down like a whipped pup. Yes, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior but He also refers to us as His brother/sister and friend. We are part of a wonderful family.

My heart is so much filled with joy for you.
 
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kennethcadwell

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#13
#13
eternally-gratefull said:
again, I am not sure that is exactly what paul was speaking of. he already dealt with that issue,

I think he is talking about ritualism as a means of relating to God. If I am to be a good little chritian boy and make God love me, then I have to make sure I do these rituals, and follow all these calander days and festivals and fiests. and these rules and regulations, That is what God wants.

You go to many traditional churches, and that is all you see. from the moment someone opens prayer till the closing prayer, ritual, repetition, and because we do these things, we think ourself holy, and looked favorably on by God.

is this really what God wants? or does he want a Father/Son Father/Daughter relationship?
Click to expand...

The thing is though is why or how those things are done.....

This is where the issue comes into play and why we are called not to judge others on what they do.
If these people are doing it for self righteousness and self gain like the Pharisees did then it is done in the wrong manner, yet if it is done by the love and the leading of the Holy Spirit then it is not wrong. For example there are things that the Catholics do that are in the bible like communion, but people have an issue with it just because of how it is misused.

Apostle Paul mentions communion in 1 Corinthians 11, and states in that chapter that anybody who partakes of it in the wrongful manner eats condemnation onto themselves. Apostle Paul also showed in Romans 13 how walking in the fruit of love will uphold all the commandments/teachings of the Lord. Yet our churches have already started the great falling away as they teach a limitation gospel on what God can do in our lives, and act in their teachings as if the Holy Spirit does not abide in us. Apostle John says that Christ can not deny Himself, therefore Christ can not deny to follow His own commandments.

Instead of putting their trust in the Lord and letting the Holy Spirit guide them through the fruits of the Spirit, they the Galatians went and put their trust in self and the obedience of the law. Paul says in Philippians 3 that obedience to the Mosaic law is self righteousness and he accounted it as loss and rubbish. But obedience in Christ is gain for life....
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#14
#14
kennethcadwell said:
The thing is though is why or how those things are done.....

This is where the issue comes into play and why we are called not to judge others on what they do.
If these people are doing it for self righteousness and self gain like the Pharisees did then it is done in the wrong manner, yet if it is done by the love and the leading of the Holy Spirit then it is not wrong. For example there are things that the Catholics do that are in the bible like communion, but people have an issue with it just because of how it is misused.

Apostle Paul mentions communion in 1 Corinthians 11, and states in that chapter that anybody who partakes of it in the wrongful manner eats condemnation onto themselves. Apostle Paul also showed in Romans 13 how walking in the fruit of love will uphold all the commandments/teachings of the Lord. Yet our churches have already started the great falling away as they teach a limitation gospel on what God can do in our lives, and act in their teachings as if the Holy Spirit does not abide in us. Apostle John says that Christ can not deny Himself, therefore Christ can not deny to follow His own commandments.

Instead of putting their trust in the Lord and letting the Holy Spirit guide them through the fruits of the Spirit, they the Galatians went and put their trust in self and the obedience of the law. Paul says in Philippians 3 that obedience to the Mosaic law is self righteousness and he accounted it as loss and rubbish. But obedience in Christ is gain for life....
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Thats why you will never figure it out Ken, Sorry to say, But I can see no other way to see it. It appears you want us to do the very thing Paul feared.

Yes, God told us to do two things in the nt, as far as ceremony or tradition goes.

1 happens 1 time only (baptism)

1 Happens as Jesus said "often" or, whenever you do it, remember me, Sorry, the roman catholic church twisted this to a pagan ritual, and not a feast of love when Gods people gather together and have a joyous meal and praise God as they did it in the NT. Not in the religious way the roman churhc and 90 percent of the churches do it today.

God wants us to come to him as his children, As we went to our parents and want our kids to come to us.

the church lost its way almost 2000 years ago, and most of it has not found it way back yet.
 
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DesiredHaven

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#15
#15
Yeah, and you can even go back and compare the language Paul uses in Galations and to the Acts incident where those who believed (who went out from them) teaching what the apostles said they did not. Paul wraps all of it into Galations very nicely.

The yoke of bondage (Shown in both Acts 15:10 & Gal 5:1) Along with those that trouble you with words (Shown in Acts 15:24 & Gal 1:7, & Gal 5:12). The law of Moses and the circumcision issue (Shown in Acts 15:1 & Gal 5:2) The grace of the Lord Jesus in contrast to their words (Shown in Acts 15:11 & Gal 5:4) They speak in accord with the same wording and Paul hits the same (point by point) using the same wording surrounding that very issue.

In Gal 1:7 Paul speaks to the same thing as shown in the counsel in Acts, "some that trouble you". The certain ones (which went out) in Acts preached and were saying "except ye be circumcised and keep Moses ye cannot be saved" thus (as James said) these "trouble you with words" subverting their souls. So in Gal 1:6 Paul says...I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Whereas in Acts 15:11 shows its the perverting of the gospel itself (and because it was by those who believed)along with ..."except ye be circumcised and keep Moses ye cannot be saved". And they respond.... But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Then go into Gal 5:1 you can pick up what they were addressing in the counsel, or what they were adding to the necks of the disciples (which was circumcision and keeping the law of Moses). The apostles called it both tempting God and a yoke (in Acts 15:10) So he says the same to them in Gal 1:5 saying, Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Then he says... Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. Then right into Gal 4:5 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace (see Acts 15:5 too). All the way down (again) into where he speaks of they which trouble you in Gal 5:10 where he says, I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be. (see Gal 1:7 & Acts 15:24) So the same are troubling them.

I had posted on this before, but I think there in Galations Paul did a great job showing the whole thing together by his choice of words. The yoke, the circumcision, the justification by the law (verses grace) and them which trouble you. Its another gospel (which is not another) though it has Jesus in it (its another Jesus) and of those which believed, but it wasn't by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

They were troubled, because this is presented as a saved issued. They were saying "except ye be circumcised and keep Moses ye cannot be saved", the apostles were like we said no such thing, its by grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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DesiredHaven

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#16
#16
Oh man, Im not sure I responded on the right thread I see this one and another like it lol

Sorry if I posted this in the wrong one

I need another cup of coffee
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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#17
Dec 12, 2013
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I agree.....Hebrews had much to say along the same lines and is applicable to the ritualistic observance of the mosaic law, ordinances and service found therein having been tied to a worldly sanctuary.......

Hebrews 9:9-10 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that DID THE SERVICE PERFECT, as pertaining to the conscience: Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and CARNAL ordinances, imposed upon then until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 10:1 For the LAW having a shadow of good things TO COME, and not the very image of the THINGS, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto PERFECT.

MANY today will believe they can approach God by their ritualistic service based upon their religion and or religious practices.....The bible is clear...when one is truly born again, the Spirit of God indwells them, seals them and leads them to cry ABBA FATHER....John said....NOW are we the children of God and it doth not yet appear what we shall be....The HEAVENLY FATHER seeks a FATHER-CHILD relationship and we are to approach God as a child and come boldly to the throne of Grace dia the blood and mediation of our great High Priest who ministers continually on our behalf.....not through religious observances, practices, rites and rituals.......
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#18
#18
dcontroversal said:
I agree.....Hebrews had much to say along the same lines and is applicable to the ritualistic observance of the mosaic law, ordinances and service found therein having been tied to a worldly sanctuary.......

Hebrews 9:9-10 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that DID THE SERVICE PERFECT, as pertaining to the conscience: Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and CARNAL ordinances, imposed upon then until the time of reformation.

Hebrews 10:1 For the LAW having a shadow of good things TO COME, and not the very image of the THINGS, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto PERFECT.

MANY today will believe they can approach God by their ritualistic service based upon their religion and or religious practices.....The bible is clear...when one is truly born again, the Spirit of God indwells them, seals them and leads them to cry ABBA FATHER....John said....NOW are we the children of God and it doth not yet appear what we shall be....The HEAVENLY FATHER seeks a FATHER-CHILD relationship and we are to approach God as a child and come boldly to the throne of Grace dia the blood and mediation of our great High Priest who ministers continually on our behalf.....not through religious observances, practices, rites and rituals.......
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I agree think people, even true believers, are missing out on so much of what God wants to give them.
 
MarcR

MarcR

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#19
Feb 12, 2015
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#19
DesiredHaven said:
Oh man, Im not sure I responded on the right thread I see this one and another like it lol

Sorry if I posted this in the wrong one

I need another cup of coffee
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Whether or not you posted where you intended; it certainly fits this thread. Enjoy your coffee.
 
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eternally-gratefull

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#20
#20
DesiredHaven said:
Oh man, Im not sure I responded on the right thread I see this one and another like it lol

Sorry if I posted this in the wrong one

I need another cup of coffee
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I agree, it certainly fits :)
 
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