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2co 12:7And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a THORN in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
the Bible doesn't say just as what Jesus was writing in the dirt when the lady was brought before him to be stoned, so anything that is said is not scripture but rather man's opinion, but that is not to say that it couldn't have been bad eye sight , but we don't know for sure
the Bible doesn't say just as what Jesus was writing in the dirt when the lady was brought before him to be stoned, so anything that is said is not scripture but rather man's opinion, but that is not to say that it couldn't have been bad eye sight , but we don't know for sure
S
If I may, I would like to take that a little further. The structure of the sentence and the clauses that make up the sentence have no coordinating conjunctions (cc). A (cc) links independent units while the subordinating conjunctions (sc) connect dependant clauses. The entire verse 7 in 2Cor 12 has no (cc) in the Greek but does have (sc). What this means is that there are three clauses, 'there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.' are all Dependant clauses. We take the first clause, a thorn in the flesh and make it Dependant on the second clause, a messenger of Satan. You can reverse the Dependant clauses and say that God gave me a messenger of Satan to buffet me, a thorn in the flesh, lest I be exalted above measure.
The clauses are not independent of one another but are Dependant and describe the same thing or the same object in the sentence. Example. ...'he gave me a black coat, an army issue made of special wool, so that I would be warm in the winter months.' The army issue made of special wool is the same thing as a black coat. It is a descriptive clause that can be used as an adjective or noun.
In addition, when you put these clauses together they describe a single object which is supported in verse 8 with the words 'this', 'thing' and 'it', which are all singular and point back to verse 7 and those three clauses that make up one object.
This is why I believe that the thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan sent to buffet him so that he would not exalt himself above the revelation that God had given him. We don't know how this messenger buffet him but we do know that it made Paul very uncomfortable in his flesh (like a splinter does) enough to ask God three times to let it depart from him.
The clauses are not independent of one another but are Dependant and describe the same thing or the same object in the sentence. Example. ...'he gave me a black coat, an army issue made of special wool, so that I would be warm in the winter months.' The army issue made of special wool is the same thing as a black coat. It is a descriptive clause that can be used as an adjective or noun.
In addition, when you put these clauses together they describe a single object which is supported in verse 8 with the words 'this', 'thing' and 'it', which are all singular and point back to verse 7 and those three clauses that make up one object.
This is why I believe that the thorn in the flesh was a messenger of Satan sent to buffet him so that he would not exalt himself above the revelation that God had given him. We don't know how this messenger buffet him but we do know that it made Paul very uncomfortable in his flesh (like a splinter does) enough to ask God three times to let it depart from him.
The Bible always interprets itself.
You can check all the usages of thorns in the flesh, side, etc....in the Bible
The expression always refers to people.
When scripture does not interpret itself in the verse or context, you check previous usage.
God makes sure His Word interprets itself cause He doesn't want man to be guessing for a lifetime.
You can check all the usages of thorns in the flesh, side, etc....in the Bible
The expression always refers to people.
When scripture does not interpret itself in the verse or context, you check previous usage.
God makes sure His Word interprets itself cause He doesn't want man to be guessing for a lifetime.
S
This time the expression (thorn) refers to a messenger of Satan and most likely a demon that continually pricked his flesh like a thorn by buffeting him continually. God is the one that did it and the demon kept beating him over and over so that Paul had to rely upon grace for strength in his weakness and not rely just upon the knowledge and revelation that God had given him. God let Satan have a go at Job but couldn't take his life. Is it that far out of the question that God had a messenger of Satan constantly harass Paul to keep him humble and in a place of receiving grace so that God's strength could be made perfect?
BTW ~ If you are a student of God's word and have any experience in exegesis you would know how to study a verse word by word in the original language so that you could get the maximum understanding of what is being said. If you don't know the difference between the voice, mood and tense of a verb, you could completely misunderstand what the verse is saying. If you do not know the action of the verb whether is was completed in the past with present results or if the action was initiated by the subject of the sentence in the active voice or was responded to and received in the passive voice you can change the whole plan of how salvation is received and how a sinner is saved by grace. I won't get into that now but I could.
That is why so many believers have these strange ideas and doctrines that are unfounded and not rooted in the every word of God. They are for the most part self taught and never been under a pastor/teacher. They do not dig into the word and exhaust themselves with continual labor in the word and doctrine. Those that are saved and love God should put themselves under a man of God who studies to show himself approved and is not ashamed because of ignorance and who rightly has learned through great effort and tireless nights how to rightly divide the word of truth. And not only that but has been a doer of the word. If you are serious about getting to know God and hiding the word in your heart, I suggest that you go to a good Bible College that will teach you that learning the word of God is the highest form of education because it will never pass away.
BTW ~ If you are a student of God's word and have any experience in exegesis you would know how to study a verse word by word in the original language so that you could get the maximum understanding of what is being said. If you don't know the difference between the voice, mood and tense of a verb, you could completely misunderstand what the verse is saying. If you do not know the action of the verb whether is was completed in the past with present results or if the action was initiated by the subject of the sentence in the active voice or was responded to and received in the passive voice you can change the whole plan of how salvation is received and how a sinner is saved by grace. I won't get into that now but I could.
That is why so many believers have these strange ideas and doctrines that are unfounded and not rooted in the every word of God. They are for the most part self taught and never been under a pastor/teacher. They do not dig into the word and exhaust themselves with continual labor in the word and doctrine. Those that are saved and love God should put themselves under a man of God who studies to show himself approved and is not ashamed because of ignorance and who rightly has learned through great effort and tireless nights how to rightly divide the word of truth. And not only that but has been a doer of the word. If you are serious about getting to know God and hiding the word in your heart, I suggest that you go to a good Bible College that will teach you that learning the word of God is the highest form of education because it will never pass away.
G
Galatians 4, Paul recounts an illness he had that affected his eyes:
"12I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"
And in Galatians 6, Paul points out that he is using his own hand to write the letter (rather than a scribe):
"See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand!"
He wrote large letters because he had poor eyesight. And yet he wrote the letter (or at least part of it) himself, perhaps to make it more personal, as other Christians would have known about his ailments (or at least the Galatians would, as chapter 4 indicates). So Paul's eye problem being the thorn is a good possibility.
Another possibility is poor speaking ability, some kind of speech impediment, just like Moses was thought to have had.
1 Corinthians 2:
" 1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power."
Like others have said, we just don't know what he was referring to. I bet his original audience did, though. Whether it was one of these two problems or a different problem he had, it's obvious from several of his letters that he had a rough time and a lot of suffering.
"12I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"
And in Galatians 6, Paul points out that he is using his own hand to write the letter (rather than a scribe):
"See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand!"
He wrote large letters because he had poor eyesight. And yet he wrote the letter (or at least part of it) himself, perhaps to make it more personal, as other Christians would have known about his ailments (or at least the Galatians would, as chapter 4 indicates). So Paul's eye problem being the thorn is a good possibility.
Another possibility is poor speaking ability, some kind of speech impediment, just like Moses was thought to have had.
1 Corinthians 2:
" 1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power."
Like others have said, we just don't know what he was referring to. I bet his original audience did, though. Whether it was one of these two problems or a different problem he had, it's obvious from several of his letters that he had a rough time and a lot of suffering.
G
The scripture itself says that it was a "messenger of Satan", so there's no need to do any outside interpretation/exegesis to understand that. But what we are unsure of is what exactly Paul suffered that he blamed on Satan. Was it lousy speaking ability? Poor eyesight? Chronic illness? Whatever it was, the scripture said it was there to keep Paul humble.
S
The thorn was a messenger of Satan, a demon, not a chronic illness or an eye condition, it was a demon. Paul had a demon harassing him and beating him over and over and would not go away. This is what God had given to Paul to keep him humble and be able to receive grace in his weakness. It was a demon, don't you get it, it was a demon that was a thorn in his flesh. A nagging splinter that would not go away and Paul prayed three times for it to depart and it never departed because God did not let it depart. The demon was good for Paul so that he would receive grace in his weakness and God's strength would be made perfect that way. Paul profited in grace by having the demon harass him over and over again. Paul did not pray to be healed he prayed that it would depart because he was being harassed by a demon in his flesh and it was very uncomfortable and agonizing and Paul wanted it to leave and be gone. God did not answer his prayer and left the demon so He could give him grace.
C
Paul had many of his letters written by scribe, there was an indication, that although he did write in his own hand, it was rare. Many think that there was a malady with his eyes. . Although the "thorn" is not specified, the underlying truth is the Lord is all sufficient for whatever our thorn is. What is interesting to study is why Paul asked for it to be removed more than once. Christ was saying that He was all sufficient.....that in weakness, we see His strength. Paul was reminded of his need for Christ, making him remain humble before the Lord because if you read about Paul's background, he had every reason to put confidence in his flesh, but it counted it all worthless for the cause of Christ.
Often we need something of weakness to remind us of Christ's strengths, Paul was an example of this for us.
Often we need something of weakness to remind us of Christ's strengths, Paul was an example of this for us.
S
The reasons for Paul being given this thorn is two-fold. One that he would not exalt himself because of the abundance of revelation that God had given him and two, that he would be able to continue to receive grace for his personal life and for the work of the ministry that God had called him to. God gave him this thorn for those reasons. What I learn from this is the wisdom of God's plan and His desire to keep us in a place of humility so that we can receive grace, even if that means afflicting us, in some way, with the kingdom of darkness.
It seems that many are having a problem with the thorn in Paul's flesh, so let's try it this way. After the word 'thorn' you have a comma and then this clause, 'a messenger of Satan to buffet him'. For the sake of understanding, let's set aside the word 'thorn' momentarily and focus on the clause, 'a messenger of Satan to buffet him'. What is that clause talking about and what does it refer to? This messenger belonged to the kingdom of darkness that Satan ruled over and the messenger was sent to buffet Paul. Who was this messenger, was it an angel, a demon, a foul or evil spirit or some other kind of messenger? The messenger was sent to buffet Paul ~ kolaphizo (verb)- which means to strike with the fist, to maltreat with violence. Could this messenger be a human agent of Satan?
After you figure out who and what this messenger of Satan is, go back to the word 'thorn'. Do we have two different items that was given Paul, a thorn AND a messenger of Satan or are they connected referring to one item? Grammatically speaking these two clauses are connected because there is no coordinating conjunction which would make them independent of one another and because they are dependent on one another they are related and one modifies and describes the other.
It seems that many are having a problem with the thorn in Paul's flesh, so let's try it this way. After the word 'thorn' you have a comma and then this clause, 'a messenger of Satan to buffet him'. For the sake of understanding, let's set aside the word 'thorn' momentarily and focus on the clause, 'a messenger of Satan to buffet him'. What is that clause talking about and what does it refer to? This messenger belonged to the kingdom of darkness that Satan ruled over and the messenger was sent to buffet Paul. Who was this messenger, was it an angel, a demon, a foul or evil spirit or some other kind of messenger? The messenger was sent to buffet Paul ~ kolaphizo (verb)- which means to strike with the fist, to maltreat with violence. Could this messenger be a human agent of Satan?
After you figure out who and what this messenger of Satan is, go back to the word 'thorn'. Do we have two different items that was given Paul, a thorn AND a messenger of Satan or are they connected referring to one item? Grammatically speaking these two clauses are connected because there is no coordinating conjunction which would make them independent of one another and because they are dependent on one another they are related and one modifies and describes the other.
G
I don't understand why you're disagreeing with my statement earlier, because I wouldn't disagree with anything you've just written here. The "thorn" is either the same as or caused by the "messenger of Satan." If it is the messenger then, as you say, it could be some physical manifestation of an evil spirit doing physical harm to Paul. But doesn't it make more sense to say that Paul is blaming whatever "buffeting" is happening to him (which could be in the form of eye problems, trouble speaking, or any number of physical problems) on that messenger? In other words, it is that messenger of Satan that is causing his thorn in the flesh. That's all I was trying to say earlier.
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