Pax Romana

[Locutus]

Yer gotta love that old worn out refrain of the "futurist" apologists:

Mat 25:13 KJV Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

So how valid is that argument? - zero, and why? Because Jesus had not ascended to the father and he told his disciples that they would be shown the things to come:

John 16:12 KJV I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

John 16:13 KJV Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Paul said the day was at hand, therefore he was shown the things "to come"

(Rom 13:12 KJV The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

John said it was the last hour:

1 Jo 2:18 (Young's Literal) Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many -- whence we know that it is the last hour

And John was also shown the things that would shortly come to pass:

Rev 1:1 KJV The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.

I think we can relegate that worn out refrain of "ye know neither the day nor the hour" where it belongs, in the past and the garbage can.

 

[trofimus]

Yer gotta love that old worn out refrain of the "futurist" apologists:

Mat 25:13 KJV Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

So how valid is that argument? - zero, and why? Because Jesus had not ascended to the father and he told his disciples that they would be shown the things to come:

John 16:12 KJV I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

John 16:13 KJV Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Paul said the day was at hand, therefore he was shown the things "to come"

(Rom 13:12 KJV The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

John said it was the last hour:

1 Jo 2:18 (Young's Literal) Little youths, it is the last hour; and even as ye heard that the antichrist doth come, even now antichrists have become many -- whence we know that it is the last hour

And John was also shown the things that would shortly come to pass:

Rev 1:1 KJV The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.

I think we can relegate that worn out refrain of "ye know neither the day nor the hour" where it belongs, in the past and the garbage can.

Short, last hour etc are not a definitive units of time, it is quite a subjective description dependent on how old we think the history is.

If somebody believes that the Universe is 6 000 years old, then it is quite difficult to explain why "last hour" lasts for 2 000 years.

If somebody belives that the Universe is about 14 bilions years old, this problem disappears and we are really in "last time" and "last hour" of it, no matter how many centuries are still in front of us.

 

[Locutus]

So what you are implying is terms like "last days", "last hour" and must "shortly come to pass" are meaningless.

 

[trofimus]

So what you are implying is terms like "last days", "last hour" and must "shortly come to pass" are meaningless.

No, I am implying that it depends on "last hour of what". After billions years or after 4000 years?

If a), then there is no problem with last hour lasting 2000 years.

 

[Locutus]

So the terms are elastic.....

 

[trofimus]

So the terms are elastic.....

Yes, terms like "short" are "elastic" regarding the whole...

Small elephant is not the same size as a small cat.

 

[Locutus]

Both these versions say the same thing. Your problem is that you have trouble with that Elizabethan English. With a bit of practice you can see through it.

Look Where one says 'always' the other uses 'in all seasons' same thing. All through it its only the use of different words Not different saying

No they don't - for an understanding of how the Greek word "mello" works with the infinitive check this out:

*An asterisk in front of a verse reference in following pages, marks an important prophetic passage. Note carefully how the word “mello” is used in that passage.

3. Present Infinitive–Denotes a process in action. A verb used as a noun.

Acts 11:28, “[Agabus] did signify through the Spirit a great dearth is about to be throughout all the world–which also came to pass...”

Acts 19:27, “the great goddess Artemis...her greatness is about to be brought down...”

Acts 23:30, “a plot about to be of the Jews.”

*Acts 24:15, “...about to be a rising again of the dead”

Acts 25:4, “and himself [Paul) is about speedily to go on thither,.”

Acts 27:10, “I perceive that with much hurt, and much damage.. the voyage is about to be”

Acts 28:6, “and they were expecting him to be about to be inflamed...”

Full text at:

Greek Word mello

KJV:

Act 24:15 (KJV) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The above obscures the use of the Greek "mello" in the infinitive:

Young's Literal:

Act 24:15 (Young's) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous.

"About to be" expresses imminence.

 

[Willie-T]

Or Gravity, or electricity, or automobiles or or or. Just because it's not written in the Word doesn't mean it is not real.

But it DOES mean we are not to try and make ANYTHING out to be more than what is written.

 

[Angela53510]

The KJV is misleading in places, I like it as translation, but I'm aware of some of it's short comings - I would recommend Young's Literal Translation as it shows the correct tenses unlike some modern translations:

Such as:

Luke 21:36 New King James Version

Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

The literal:

Luk 21:36 (Young's) watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.'

Theological bias is driving some translations.

Well, I don't like the KJV version at all. And in this case, Young's is certainly correct. But it is not even about tenses, but just translating the words correctly.

"ἀγρυπνεῖτε δὲ ἐν παντὶ καιρῷ δεόμενοι ἵνα κατισχύσητε ἐκφυγεῖν ταῦτα πάντα τὰ μέλλοντα γίνεσθαι, καὶ σταθῆναι ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου." Luke 21:36

"ταῦτα πάντα τὰ μέλλοντα γίνεσθαι" is the phrase you are concerned with.

ταῦτα - these things

πάντα - all

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]μέλλοντα[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] - are about to - (usually appears with the infinitive, which is ginesthai - [/FONT]γίνεσθαι) Present Active Participle

γίνεσθαι - come to pass, happen - Present Middle Infinitive.

So, "[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]that shall come to pass," KJV is not correct, nor is NKJV. [/FONT]


[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]But getting back to the OP, I agree that there is no THE Great Tribulation. Sadly, there are people who don't really know much about English, forget Greek. When you use the word "THE" it points to a definite noun. In fact, that is why it is called the "definite article." It defines the words that follow, both adjectives and nouns.[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]The verse cited does not have the definite article, meaning, no THE Great Tribulation. Just that there is going to be some sort of great tribulation. Matt 24:21 is not predicting a definite event, which dispensationalists love to line up and say that this will be followed by this event, preceded by this event.


[/FONT]

 

[Denadii]

But it DOES mean we are not to try and make ANYTHING out to be more than what is written.

It does mean that. But what is written is right. God says what He means and He means what He says. He does not need an interpreter

 

[J7]

it is a definitive event, the destruction of Jerusalem.

The rest I agree with

Well, I don't like the KJV version at all. And in this case, Young's is certainly correct. But it is not even about tenses, but just translating the words correctly.

"ἀγρυπνεῖτε δὲ ἐν παντὶ καιρῷ δεόμενοι ἵνα κατισχύσητε ἐκφυγεῖν ταῦτα πάντα τὰ μέλλοντα γίνεσθαι, καὶ σταθῆναι ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου." Luke 21:36

"ταῦτα πάντα τὰ μέλλοντα γίνεσθαι" is the phrase you are concerned with.

ταῦτα - these things

πάντα - all

μέλλοντα - are about to - (usually appears with the infinitive, which is ginesthai - γίνεσθαι) Present Active Participle

γίνεσθαι - come to pass, happen - Present Middle Infinitive.

So, "that shall come to pass," KJV is not correct, nor is NKJV.


But getting back to the OP, I agree that there is no THE Great Tribulation. Sadly, there are people who don't really know much about English, forget Greek. When you use the word "THE" it points to a definite noun. In fact, that is why it is called the "definite article." It defines the words that follow, both adjectives and nouns.

The verse cited does not have the definite article, meaning, no THE Great Tribulation. Just that there is going to be some sort of great tribulation. Matt 24:21 is not predicting a definite event, which dispensationalists love to line up and say that this will be followed by this event, preceded by this event.

 

[MattforJesus]

Or Gravity, or electricity, or automobiles or or or. Just because it's not written in the Word doesn't mean it is not real.

But we can find automobiles,as well as jets.

Nah 2:3 The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken.
Nah 2:4 The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

Automobiles,which they did not know the name,but chariots is a from of transportation.

Isa 31:4 For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
Isa 31:5 As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.

Israeli fighter pilots,the 6 day war,took control of Jerusalem.

Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Nuclear weapons that devastate the Islam nations when they rebel against the unified religious system.

 

[Locutus]

Tense is important as in the Greek Paul is stating that the resurrection is "about to be" - and doctrinal issues have determined how that theology is expressed and promulgated.

From the link I gave on the Greek "mello":

Take a careful look at these texts. In most translations, mello is incorrectly rendered “shall” most of the time, especially in prophetic texts, with no indication that a near time of occurrence is involved. The use of mello indicates something is “about to be” or “about to” occur, so the English word “shall,” which simply implies a future action with no indication of timing, is not adequate to express the inherent imminency of the word “mello.” This becomes very important when we look at prophetic texts that use this word in reference to the return of Christ and other end time events. This implies that those events were “about to” occur. Since most translators believe the events are still future, they have difficulty translating it with an “about to” sense, especially in prophetic texts. Here is a complete list of all occurrences of “mello”, classified according to their tense and mood.

 

[Denadii]

But we can find automobiles,as well as jets.

Nah 2:3 The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken.
Nah 2:4 The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

Automobiles,which they did not know the name,but chariots is a from of transportation.

Isa 31:4 For thus hath the LORD spoken unto me, Like as the lion and the young lion roaring on his prey, when a multitude of shepherds is called forth against him, he will not be afraid of their voice, nor abase himself for the noise of them: so shall the LORD of hosts come down to fight for mount Zion, and for the hill thereof.
Isa 31:5 As birds flying, so will the LORD of hosts defend Jerusalem; defending also he will deliver it; and passing over he will preserve it.

Israeli fighter pilots,the 6 day war,took control of Jerusalem.

Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Nuclear weapons that devastate the Islam nations when they rebel against the unified religious system.

LOL I'll accept that

 

[Locutus]

What "unified religious system"?

No such thing...

 

[iamsoandso]

Yes, terms like "short" are "elastic" regarding the whole...

Small elephant is not the same size as a small cat.

yep I think your right like in Joel 1:15(the day of the Lord is at hand) or Joel 2;1(nigh at hand) and then everyone will think it was way back then based on the same wisdom.

 

[Katy-follower]

Neither can you find "THE Antichrist" or "THE Rapture".

The rapture is for another thread.

Actually, the Antichrist is mentioned throughout the scriptures. He's referred to as the 'man of sin' and 'son of perdition,' which is a name only given to two individuals.... Judas of old, and the future Antichrist.

Here it says many antichrists have come, but the one himself is to come...


1 John 2:18-23: "Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also"


2 Thess 2:3-12: "Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness"


The worthless (false) Shepherd....

Zechariah 11:16-17: "For indeed I will raise up a shepherd in the land who will not care for those who are cut off, nor seek the young, nor heal those that are broken, nor feed those that still stand. But he will eat the flesh of the fat and tear their hooves in pieces. “Woe to the worthless shepherd, Who leaves the flock! A sword shall be against his arm And against his right eye; His arm shall completely wither, And his right eye shall be totally blinded.”

 

[Katy-follower]

You may or may not already know this,
but there are a lot of Christians in Syria.
Think they're experiencing great tribulation lately?

Believers have always suffered tribulation, since we're not of the world, so the world hates us and persecutes us (John 17:14, John 15:18-20). But this great tribulation is described as being the worst the world will ever see (worse than the Holocaust, etc), in that no flesh would survive if the days were not shortened. We're not there yet, but I think we're getting closer.

It will be the great finale. God's last call for repentance.


Believers not of the world...

John 15:18-20: "If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also"

 

[Ahwatukee]

You may or may not already know this,
but there are a lot of Christians in Syria.
Think they're experiencing great tribulation lately?

It is important to understand that there is a difference between the trials and tribulations that Jesus said all believers would have vs. God's coming, unprecedented wrath. This time of wrath is known as "the day of the Lord" and Jesus referred to it as "the hour of trial." This time of wrath will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which will continue right up to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

The trials and tribulations that Jesus said we would suffer come from mankind with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the spiritual background. Where the wrath of God will be exactly that, wrath poured out upon this Christ rejecting world directly from God.

Therefore, those people in Syria, Egypt, China and anywhere else in the world where people are being persecuted, taken into captivity or being killed, is the result of their faith in Christ and is not a result of God's wrath.

 

[Locutus]

Unfortunately the "futurtists" have the timing of the day of the Lord all wrong:

Mal 4:5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.

Mark 9:13 “But I say to you that Elijah has indeed come, and they did to him whatever they wished, just as it is written of him.”

There are no further appearances of Elijah (other than at the transfiguration) in the bible, John as Elijah prophesied and warned the vipers of his generation about the wrath to come aka the "great and terrible day of the LORD"

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Peter stated that all of the prophets spoke of "these days", the days he was living in:

Act 3:24 And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days.

Joel and John as the prophet Elijah are included in the above "all the prophets", and Peter claimed the fulfillment of Joel's prophecies in his day(s)

Act 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

Act 2:17 ‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says, ‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;

Act 2:18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy.

Act 2:19 ‘AND I WILL GRANT WONDERS IN THE SKY ABOVE AND SIGNS ON THE EARTH BELOW, BLOOD, AND FIRE, AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.

Act 2:20 ‘THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME.