Pentecostal and Charismatic

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wolfwint

wolfwint

Senior Member
#302
Feb 15, 2014
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#302
Locoponydirtman said:
Jesus warned us that false prophets will come and perform great signs and wonder, so deceptive that they could deceive the very elect.
This is why I put 0 stock in miracles and such.
I look for God in his word.
Click to expand...
kaylagrl said:
5.Cessation Argument #5: The miraculous gifts were given only during the three periods of history when new revelation was given. Therefore, they are not being given today.

a.John MacArthur teaches this view: Most biblical miracles happened in three relatively brief periods of Bible history: in the days of Moses and Joshua, during the miracles of Elijah and Elisha, and in the time of Christ and the apostles...All three periods of miracles were given in times when God gave his written revelation-Scripture, in substantial quantities
b.The major problem with this argument is that a great number of supernatural events occur outside of these three periods. What is more, even if it is shown that the miraculous decreased at certain times, there may be other reasons for the decline, such as rebellion and sin.
6.Cessation Argument #6: Jesus says, “A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign” (Matt. 16:4). This means that we should not pray for the miraculous in our ministries today.

a.The problem with this objection is that it fails to consider who Jesus’ audience was. Matthew 16 shows us that the “wicked and adulterous generation” referred to were the Scribes and the Pharisees who came to test Jesus by asking for a sign. Jesus was rebuking hard-hearted unbelievers who mocked him with this request. Notice the greater frequency with which Jesus compassionately responded to a request for a miracle

b.Significantly, Acts 4:30 relates that the apostles and the early disciples prayed for signs and wonders to follow their preaching ministry. Paul, rather than discouraging his readers from seeking the miraculous gifts, told them do desire them eagerly (1 Cor. 14:1). John writes that “many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name” (John 2:23). Then he reinforces the positive role of signs in proclaiming the gospel: “Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name” (20:30-31).

7.Cessation Argument #7: Seeking miraculous gifts, especially in evangelism, devalues the primacy of the Word of God. The Bible alone is enough to save.

a.Yes, the gospel alone is enough to save, for it is the “power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes” (Rom. 1:16). Tens of thousands have been saved by the Word preached without any attesting works of power. The gospel has intrinsic power to save. The argument of this book, however, is that in the pluralistic world of today, works of power may help the church reach a culture confused by myriad religious choices. In arguing that the postmodern church will be more effective when the Word goes forth with power, is the Word of God devalued?

b.No, this is exactly what the apostles themselves expressed. They prayed for God to confirm their gospel with works of power. If signs and wonders did not devalue the Word for the apostles, why would they devalue the Word now?

c.No one has ever preached the Word more powerfully than the apostles. Yet God chose to confirm his words through them with attesting signs and wonders. The argument is frequently made: “The apostles needed that in the first century. Those gifts passed away because the church didn’t need them anymore.” The suggestion that the church does not need them anymore implies that the apostles needed more help than we do in preaching the gospel! If the apostles, with their tremendous spiritual gifting and ministering to a world that was still filled with eyewitnesses of the resurrected Christ, needed the help of signs and wonders, don’t we need them too?

8.Cessation Argument #8: Jesus warns us that in the end times false prophets will work miracles and deceive the elect. Therefore we should not seek miraculous gifts

a.The work of God’s Spirit is always counterfeited by the enemy. The scriptural approach is to learn to discern between true and false prophets. Texts such as Matthew 7:15-17, 2 Peter 2:1-22, and 1 John 4:1-6 guide the church to distinguish the false prophet from the true prophet.

b.The Bible says there will be false teachers in the end times. Does that mean we should abandon the gift of teaching for fear of being deceived? Jesus did warn his followers to beware of deceiving false prophets who teach error and work false miracles. The fact that Satan can counterfeit a true ministry of the Spirit should not result in rejecting that ministry of the Spirit

9.Cessation Argument #9: The epistles rarely speak of the miraculous gifts. This proves that these gifts passed away toward the end of the first century.

a.The line of this argument says that the gifts are not discussed much in the epistles and that, in the letters written toward the end of Paul’s life, we do not find Epaphroditus, Timothy, or Trophimus being supernaturally healed.

b.This is an argument from silence, which is the weakest kind. Paul does not speak about his gift of celibacy in the later epistles either. Is one therefore to assume that he lost it? Not much can be proved from silence. The epistles do refer to the miraculous gifts in Romans 12:3-8, 1 Corinthians 12-14, Galatians 3:5, Ephesians 4:1-16, and 1 Thessalonians 5:20. Moreover, there is no explicit command in the epistles to evangelize. Should one conclude that by the end of the century the apostles had stopped witnessing? Just because Paul did not heal the three men he mentions in the prison epistles does not mean he had lost his gift of healing. The Scripture simply does not say why they were not healed

.c.The greatest problem with this argument, as Jack Deere points out, is that it contrasts narrative literature with didactic literature. The book of Acts is narrative literature. Luke explained that the purpose of the book of Acts was to tell “about all that Jesus began to do and to teach” (Act 1:1). Acts is the story of Jesus’ continuing his miraculous ministry through the church. The epistles are letters written to churches dealing with specific problems. When the problems related to gifts, as in Corinth, the epistle addressed it. Otherwise there was no reason for the gifts to be mentioned. Furthermore, Paul was in prison when he wrote Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, and Philemon. These letters will obviously not be filled with stories of Paul working miracles-Paul was locked up

10.Cessation Argument #10: The miracles worked by the apostles were always successful, instantaneous, and on the hardest cases (such as organic illnesses like blindness or paralysis). If Jesus and the apostles were here today, they would be emptying the hospitals. The miracles of todayare nothing like the ones in the Bible. This proves that the miraculous gifts have ceased.

a.It has already been affirmed that Jesus and the apostles ministered with extraordinary power. It does not follow from this that believers today cannot minister with these gifts at all. While present day believers may not witness with that kind of power, they continue to witness. The same is true of these gifts: they may not be used with the power displayed by the apostles, but they are still used.
b.There does seem to be a distinction between the apostolic gift of healing and the gifts of healing mentioned in


I have never posted anything like this on CC. But because of false attacks on Pentecost I feel I had to have a full response with Scripture. You don't want to read it? Fine. But once and for all there is refutation of cessationism.
Click to expand...
Does cessationism says that God is doing no healing and miracles today?
Following points hold me away to believe in this pentecostal / charismatic believe system.
1. There is nowhere taught in the bible, that speaking in tongues is the evidence to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, which every believer has to got. No single writer of the NT taught this. Speaking in tongues was a gift like all other gifts which are mentioned in 1. Cor. ore romans 12 listet.
It never played the important role as it does in the pentecostal/charismatic movements.
2. This baptising with the Holy Spirit, which we found since 1901 was no time practised before in the churchhistory. And there is no single proof given from defenders of the pentecostal/charismatic movements. No churchfather and no reformator taught this.

3. Along with this teaching came a lot of behaviours from the believers side, we cant find in the bible.: Acting and noising like animals, roling on the ground. Laughing out of controle, open for false teachings (f.e. power to the woman over man, accepting RCC teachings,

4. If we had today the same situation, like in the days of Jesus and the apostles on earth, we would expect the same results which we found in there days.
But we do not!

I believe that the Lord today is the same and he answers today prayer and is healing and giving guidance through his Holy Spirit.
But I dont believe that there is the same Spirit behind the pentecostal/charismatic believesystem.
I know you will not agree. I am not saying this to hurt you.
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#303
#303
wolfwint said:
Does cessationism says that God is doing no healing and miracles today?
Following points hold me away to believe in this pentecostal / charismatic believe system.
1. There is nowhere taught in the bible, that speaking in tongues is the evidence to be baptised with the Holy Spirit, which every believer has to got. No single writer of the NT taught this. Speaking in tongues was a gift like all other gifts which are mentioned in 1. Cor. ore romans 12 listet.
It never played the important role as it does in the pentecostal/charismatic movements.
2. This baptising with the Holy Spirit, which we found since 1901 was no time practised before in the churchhistory. And there is no single proof given from defenders of the pentecostal/charismatic movements. No churchfather and no reformator taught this.

3. Along with this teaching came a lot of behaviours from the believers side, we cant find in the bible.: Acting and noising like animals, roling on the ground. Laughing out of controle, open for false teachings (f.e. power to the woman over man, accepting RCC teachings,

4. If we had today the same situation, like in the days of Jesus and the apostles on earth, we would expect the same results which we found in there days.
But we do not!

I believe that the Lord today is the same and he answers today prayer and is healing and giving guidance through his Holy Spirit.
But I dont believe that there is the same Spirit behind the pentecostal/charismatic believesystem.
I know you will not agree. I am not saying this to hurt you.
Click to expand...
You don't know if I agree or not, because I think we are pretty much on the same page.
 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#306
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
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#306
I wonder if most Pentecostals act this way.

If so, I would never make a good one. I would not be able to get up after flopping on the floor like this.

Maybe the Pentecostals/charismatics can tell me.

 
UnitedWithChrist

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
#307
Aug 12, 2019
3,739
1,928
113
#307
Want to become an Apostle or Prophet?

Here is your chance.

It is called International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders.

https://www.icaleaders.com/membership

Annual Membership Fees
  • United States based member: $450.00
  • Married apostles combined : $650.00
  • First Nation (American Indian): $350.00
  • International independent members (those not belonging to their individual country’s Coalition): $350.00 (USD).
  • International married apostles combined: $450.00.
  • Fees may be paid in two installments by check, credit card or at the Online Store.
  • Membership fees do not include fees for conferences or summits
If I'm not mistaken, at least 3000 "apostles" belong to this organization.

My guess is that anyone with the 450 bucks can become an apostle :D

They also have a similar organization for prophets:

https://www.icaleaders.com/icop-international-coalition-of-prophetic-leaders

So, take your pick..apostle or prophet..my guess is they would allow you to become both for $900.
Does 3000 include members who consider themselves evangelists, pastors, and teachers also?

Obviously if anyone knows me, they know I believe these apostolic/prophetic claims are bogus. I don't believe in charismatic nonsense.
 
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