People think you have to keep grace on a leash

[Joshua_Generation]

You act like I am unaware that such a thing is in the Bible. Every Christian who has studied the Bible knows about this story, my friend. Anyways, in David's story of him committing adultery and murder, he was shown the error of his ways by Nathan. David then repented of these sins of which we can see in Psalm 51. David did not continue to hold onto his sin and ignore Nathan and refuse to repent of his sins. David did not continue to commit adultery and murder as a way of life. David stumbled in his walk with God. David did not habitully sin and do evil as a way of life and remain right with God.

Jason have you ever read 1 John 2.18-19?

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. [SUP]19 [/SUP]They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [SUP][d][/SUP]it would be shown that they all are not of us.

What is John stating here? any idea?

When a person that claims to be saved and continues to SIN and no fruit of the Spirit is manifesting, they were most likely not saved to begin with and only gave mental assent. They did not truly confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in their heart that God raised him from the dead.

This is what 1 John 2.18-19 is telling us.

 

[crossnote]

No one seems to disagree with the fact that they believe in OSAS here (Except you). Do you not believe in OSAS?

And I am not hiding behind OSAS. I don't believe in it. I think it is a doctrine of pure evil. So I am against OSAS and I will fight against it until my last dying breath because I know it leads a person into the thinking they can sin and still be saved (i.e. a doctrine of immorality, which Jude talks about). For even Peter said that there are false prophets who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14). This is perfectly in line with the OSAS belief by many who say that no is perfect and that everyone sins.

you have an OSAS strawman that is a definition we don't hold to. You won't admit that those who are saved have a new nature that disdains sin yet falls at times. Your idea of salvation is that ultimately man keeps himself saved.

 

[forsha]

Where in Romans 1 does it say it is talking about a born again believer? Anyways, we learn in Romans 1 that the Wrath of God abides on the unbeliever because of their unrighteousnesness (or sin). For not only does unrepentant sin destroy the unbeliever but unrepentant sin also destroys the believer, too (See Galatians 5).

Gal 5 is explaining the warfare between the Spirit and the flesh that every child of God has within them. Paul explains this further in Romans 7:14-25. I don't think that Paul slipped in and out of eternal salvation, and neither do we.

 

[forsha]

The difference between what we believe on this point is that OSAS says it does excuse sin. It promotes immorality because it says no sin can separate you from God. So it removes the consequences of how a believer should live before God. Under the OSAS belief: A believer doesn't have to strive to live right and live for God and they are saved and going to Heaven (Despite the evil that they do with no actual remorse). In other words, a believer can be in sin and be right with God. That is an excuse for sin! They can be evil and yet be labeled as good.

But the believer who obeys what God's Word says plainly will never make an excuse for sin. They will repent and confess of their sin and forsake it with God's help. They do not hold onto their sin thinking it is forgiven them (Giving themselves and other people the impression that they are not sorrowful over their sin within their life --- making them no different than an unbeliever in time because sin can corrupt a person like a cancer). For the person who confesses and seeks to forsake sin is striving for the prize of Jesus Christ and seeking to be with Him and they are not making excuses to hold onto their sin. For a person cannot serve two masters. For they will hate the one and love the other. In other words, a person makes their life known by how they live. Are they living in a way that shows they love God? Or they living in such a way that shows they actually love their sin more? For Jesus said we will know a false prophet by their fruits. What are the fruits of the Spirit? Should they not be evident in a believer's life? They should be if they are sealed with the Holy Spirit. If not, then they need to examine whether or not Christ is within them or not.

Jason, What actually do you think happened on the cross? What did Jesus accomplish?

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Jason, again you missed the point. A truly born again person has a new nature and will not want to habitually sin.
Perhaps you keep missing the point because...?

Interesting observation brother crossnote,
A few verses come to mind.......

2 Timothy 2:7-9
7always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

Proverbs 26:11,12
11Like a dog that returns to his vomit
is a fool who repeats his folly.
12Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Isaiah 5:20-21
20Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!
21Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
and shrewd in their own sight!

 

[Jason0047]

Ok, since you persist, so will I...show me one Christian who obeys all of God's commands , who does not sin. Do you??

When Paul talks about how we used to be sinners in Ephesians 2 and Colossians 3 he is talking about sins that lead unto the Second Death (the Lake of Fire) or spiritual death. For there are sins that lead unto death and there are sins that do not liead unto death (1 John 5:16-18). Paul lists certain sins several times and warns that those who commit such things shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul says be not deceived on this matter. Meaning, he is talking to the believer. For unbelievers are already deceived.

However, in time, God will guide His people into walking in His ways according to His Word.

 

[Radius]

No one seems to disagree with the fact that they believe in OSAS here (Except you). Do you not believe in OSAS?

And I am not hiding behind OSAS. I don't believe in it. I think it is a doctrine of pure evil. So I am against OSAS and I will fight against it until my last dying breath because I know it leads a person into the thinking they can sin and still be saved (i.e. a doctrine of immorality, which Jude talks about). For even Peter said that there are false prophets who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14). This is perfectly in line with the OSAS belief by many who say that no is perfect and that everyone sins.

Just quickly looking at 2 Pete 2:1, 14 that you linked:

"1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;"


...14: 13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;…

Ok help me out here. DO you think these verses describe us OSAS believers? We revel in the day time? Carouse? Hearts trained in greed? accursed children? FORSAKING THE "RIGHT WAY"? Gone astray? Followed the way of Balaam who loved the wages of unrighteousness?

Come on bro. OSAS believer hate their sin. They do mess up but repentance follows. The spirit is willing but sometimes the flesh is weak. It doesn't mean we LIVE to sin and can't get enough of it.

 

[Jason0047]

Just quickly looking at 2 Pete 2:1, 14 that you linked:

"1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;"


...14: 13suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you, 14having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; 15forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;…

Ok help me out here. DO you think these verses describe us OSAS believers? We revel in the day time? Carouse? Hearts trained in greed? accursed children? FORSAKING THE "RIGHT WAY"? Gone astray? Followed the way of Balaam who loved the wages of unrighteousness?

Come on bro. OSAS believer hate their sin. They do mess up but repentance follows. The spirit is willing but sometimes the flesh is weak. It doesn't mean we LIVE to sin and can't get enough of it.

Not every OSAS believer is alike. Your opinion and thoughts on sin is not what everyone believes in regards to OSAS. What I am saying is that the commonly held OSAS beliefs are not consistent with God's Word. Especially on the teaching of properly dealing with sin and in promoting holiness. OSAS believers teach the following:

You can sin and still be saved. This is giving a person a license to sin whether they enjoy that sin or not. It is still wrong. Physical death is the result of sin in a believers life and not spiritual death (or the Second Death). You can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. Which means you can sin and still be saved. A license for immorality (Jude 1:4 NIV). Future sin is forgiven you. Again, no consequences means one can do whatever they want. No believer is ever going to be perfect or without sin. No one can ever stop sinning according to OSAS. Meaning, they support a sin and still be saved doctrine.

In other words, it's a doctrine of pure evil that has no basis whatsoever in Scripture.

 

[Radius]

Not every OSAS believer is alike. Your opinion and thoughts on sin is not what everyone believes in regards to OSAS. What I am saying is that the commonly held OSAS beliefs are not consistent with God's Word. Especially on the teaching of properly dealing with sin and in promoting holiness. OSAS believers teach the following:

You can sin and still be saved. This is giving a person a license to sin whether they enjoy that sin or not. It is still wrong. Physical death is the result of sin in a believers life and not spiritual death (or the Second Death). You can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. Which means you can sin and still be saved. A license for immorality (Jude 1:4 NIV). Future sin is forgiven you. Again, no consequences means one can do whatever they want. No believer is ever going to be perfect or without sin. No one can ever stop sinning according to OSAS. Meaning, they support a sin and still be saved doctrine.

It's a doctrine of pure evil that has no basis whatsoever in Scripture.

Let's replace "can sin" (all they want and not very guilty), with "do sin, but don't lust for it and enjoy it," and bam, we can put this thread to rest. And sure not every OSAS person believe the same things, but we're speaking about true born again believers here, which a lot or perhaps most of us all here are.

 

[Jason0047]

Interesting observation brother crossnote,
A few verses come to mind.......

2 Timothy 2:7-9
7always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. 8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. 9But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

Proverbs 26:11,12
11Like a dog that returns to his vomit
is a fool who repeats his folly.
12Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Isaiah 5:20-21
20Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!
21Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
and shrewd in their own sight!

Actually, these verses describe the OSAS proponent who believe they can sin and still be saved. For how does this describe the believer who is in obedience to God's Word and who is seeking to follow Jesus and His good ways (According to His Word)?

Yes, we are not saved by any type of Works Salvationism. We are saved by God's grace and then God does the good work within us. But believers are not exempt from the consequences of sin. If a believer sins and does not repent, they will die spiritually.

 

[Jason0047]

Let's replace "can sin" (all they want), with "do sin, but don't lust for it and enjoy it," and bam, we can put this thread to rest.

One does not sin if they do not enjoy sin on some level. What you propose does not make sense. People sin because they enjoy the pleasure of their sin. It is why men loved the darkness over the Light in the Condemnation (See the "Condemnaton" mentioned in John 3:19-21).

 

[Radius]

Actually, these verses describe the OSAS proponent who believe they can sin and still be saved. For how does this describe the believer who is in obedience to God's Word and who is seeking to follow Jesus and His good ways (According to His Word)?

Yes, we are not saved by any type of Works Salvationism. We are saved by God's grace and then God does the good work within us.

If you could just amend your definition of OSAS from now on I think this would avoid 10 page novels, Jason. You should say "SOME" OSAS proponents--not ALL. And give clear and concise definitions. Because many of us here are OSAS and we do not fit into your definition and the ones you are speaking out against.

Just a thought.

 

[Radius]

One does not sin if they do not enjoy sin on some level. What you propose does not make sense. People sin because they enjoy the pleasure of their sin. It is why men loved the darkness over the Light in the Condemnation (See the "Condemnaton" mentioned in John 3:19-21).

really? so people tell white lies because they "ENJOY" telling lies? Come on now *facepalm*

 

[Radius]

furthermore on that Jason, one--saved or not--obviously enjoy the "pleasure" of some sins while they are doing it (we're human after all), it does not mean they enjoy "sinning." If that makes sense. Those two aspects can be and should be separated.

 

[Jason0047]

Gal 5 is explaining the warfare between the Spirit and the flesh that every child of God has within them. Paul explains this further in Romans 7:14-25. I don't think that Paul slipped in and out of eternal salvation, and neither do we.

No, the end of Galatians 5 is clearly teaching that one will not inherit the Kingdom of God for committing certain sins (Galatians 5:19-21). How in the world can you not see that? Also, Romans 7 deals with Paul speaking from the perspective as a Jew trying to be justified by the Law before he was a Christian.

 

[Jason0047]

furthermore on that Jason, one--saved or not--obviously enjoy the "pleasure" of some sins while they are doing it (we're human after all), it does not mean they enjoy "sinning." If that makes sense. Those two aspects can be and should be separated.

No, a person sins because they enjoy the pleasure of their sin. It's what life and what John 3:19-21 teaches. Yes, a believer might feel bad afterwards, but if they keep on doing it, they are doing so because they like the feeling it gives them within the moment of sinning. So no. People sin because they enjoy the pleasure of that sin ultimately. For some (not all) it is only the after effects that leaves them feeling hollow and empty.

 

[Jason0047]

really? so people tell white lies because they "ENJOY" telling lies? Come on now *facepalm*

You don't think there are people who don't tell lies who enjoy it. See, when a person is telling a lie, they are doing so as a way of protecting themselves. They are trying to please themselves ultimately by not going thru any discomfort in standing up for the truth. Lying is about protecting your self and in enjoying life via the status quo.

 

[Jason0047]

If you could just amend your definition of OSAS from now on I think this would avoid 10 page novels, Jason. You should say "SOME" OSAS proponents--not ALL. And give clear and concise definitions. Because many of us here are OSAS and we do not fit into your definition and the ones you are speaking out against.

Just a thought.

When I speak against OSAS and it's beliefs, most do not object to those beliefs. Why? Because that is where I had gotten them from. Yes, there are different levels of OSAS.

Personally, I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.

So seeing I hold to the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation", I am naturally against all forms of OSAS. However, that said, I believe that only those who hold to "Conditional Salvation" and "OSAS Lite" are true Christians (or my brothers). I believe all other forms of OSAS are teachings from the pits of Hell. Anyways, there are three major types of OSAS.

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing).

 

[Joshua_Generation]

No, the end of Galatians 5 is clearly teaching that one will not inherit the Kingdom of God for committing certain sins (Galatians 5:19-21). How in the world can you not see that? Also, Romans 7 deals with Paul speaking from the perspective as a Jew trying to be justified by the Law before he was a Christian.

There is only one unpardonable sin Jason, Jesus himself stated this, are you now throwing out what Jesus said in your quest to be right?

 

[Jason0047]

There is only one unpardonable sin Jason, Jesus himself stated this, are you now throwing out what Jesus said in your quest to be right?

Actually there are several sins that cannot ever be forgiven.

If one rejects Jesus with them having the Holy Spirit within their life, they cannot come back (Hebrews 6:4-6).

If one sins before they die and or commits suicide and they stay dead (with no chance to repent again), they are not forgiven.

If one speaks badly against the Holy Ghost they can never be forgiven of such a sin.