People who argue against tongues,

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M

MyLighthouse

Guest
#41
This is an appeal to those who are not yet experienced in the gifts of the Spirit, and especially tongues and prophecy, the 2 signs that are always mentioned in scripture when Christians got a 2nd, powerful, "extra" from the Holy Spirit.

Do not let inexperienced people argue you out of what the Holy Spirit would have for you. Furthermore, the argument always made by people who are not experienced in the gifts of the Spirit use a verse in the bible that has absolutely ZERO relationship to this matter. Allow me to help you.

As always, whenever taking up a discussion about holy scripture, I advise doing what a disciple taught me over 30 years ago. He said to always lay down this point which will force people to not go outside and get fanciful ideas and creative nonsense. This is the verse you should always start a discussion on:

1Co 4:6 I have applied all this to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brethren, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

Some translations also use the term "do not exceed what is written". We also know not to add or take away from what is written. Okay, then.

Now, the first passage that is used by those who are ignorant of the matter of tongues and prophecy and all the gifts, really, (meaning, they themselves have not experienced these gifts of the Holy Spirit, is this:

1 Cor 13:8 Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
1 Cor 13:9 For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect;
1 Cor 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.



The argument is that the word "perfect" in v.10 means the bible. And when asked how they come to that idea, they say that when the canon of scripture all came together, i.e. the whole bible, that that is the perfect, word of God, and we now no longer need tongues and prophecy.

When asked how that conclusion can be drawn from the "putting a book together called the bible", they add that tongues and prophecy were used to evangelize as on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), but the bible now supplants that need.

But as always, is there a context to help in the matter? Of course there is. The whole chapter in general is speaking about the superiority of love over any and everything else, which does not negate the any and everything else, but puts everything into perspective and prioritizes LOVE as the main behavior that saints should live by.

As you look at v.8, Paul states that at some time future, prophecies, tongues, and knowledge will pass away. It should be obvious that knowledge has not passed away, and yet the argument goes on anyway.

Furthermore, we are told by the prophet Daniel that knowledge will increase at the time of the end before the return of the Christ:

Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."


This does not help these people who, no insult meant, are simply blind on this subject, having no experience in the matter.

Would the experience about having been in space be best answered by somebody who has not been in space, or an astronaut who has?

Moving on....

When confronted with this point about knowledge, the argument against tongues gets more creative, and out of line with the biblical principle we started this with, as to going beyond what is written. They say that "knowledge" in this instance, has to do with the eternal knowledge of Jesus who brought the gospel in the flesh.

Is that written there? No, it is not. It is a "speculation".

Again, it should be obvious that people who have no experience in a matter, cannot speak authoritatively on the matter.

Moving on....

Acts 2

Allow me to bring to the front of this discussion something Peter said to all those who heard the tongues on the day of Pentecost, who thought they were drunk. I will bold type a couple of key statements that I want you to read:

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.
Act 2:15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day;
Act 2:16 but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:


Act 2:17 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Act 2:18 yea, and on my menservants and my maidservants in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
Act 2:19 And I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth beneath, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
Act 2:20 the sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and manifest day.


First note, that Peter gives the message a context - that what they were observing was not only foretold by the prophet Joel, but that is pertains to the last days, and Peter also makes mention of more prophecy (v. 19 and 20) that this God will also show wonders in the heaven above, signs on earth beneath, blood, fire, and smoke, and the sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood....

Rev 6:12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,



Also, Peter says that this promise (everything he just said from verses 15 to 39) is not only for those who were in attendance, but to the end of the age. Read it:

Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him."



Saints, do not be naive and young in your thinking. The Holy Spirit has vital power and gifts for the functioning of Christ's Body.

They are so important that Jesus commanded the disciples to NOT go out and attempt to do God's work UNTIL they were empowered from on High (which tool place at Acts 2).

They lacked something vital (the power of the Holy Spirit) and this is for ALL the SAINTS everywhere, to all them that are afar off.

One more thing:

1 Cor 13 gives perfect context of what the Perfect is. Read this:

Co 13:10 but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
1Co 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.


We are all seeing in a mirror dimly now. Everybody, even these naysayers, agree with that. But then, one day, we shall see face to face. THEN, there will no longer be a need for knowledge, tongues, prophecy. When will we see face to face?

ANSWER: Either when Jesus comes, or sets up the Eternal kingdom with all of us, or when we enter into the eternal heaven upon our death and going to be with the Lord.

But we certainly have not gotten to that, yet. And so, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge are still at work today in the Body.
You can't fully understand the manifestation of tongues without the manifestation of interpretation to go with it. Pray in the spirit but also in your understanding, we are to pray to interpret so that it is fruitful and our mind is productive check out 1 Cor 14. Study up on the church of Corinth and see why Paul felt it important to go over all these things for them...

Tongues is not a gift it is a manifestation given and used when God wills it, the Holy Spirit is a gift something that stays with us all the time. We are to desire all the manifestations of the spirit, have love and desire them, but most of all to prophesy unless one can interpret their tongue.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#42
I do, and have.

You and Lynn have no experience in the things of the Spirit, so you are not able to discuss what you do not know.
And obviously you have no discernment whatsoever. (Hey, at least I've read the gospels. lol)
 
T

tanach

Guest
#43
jaybird88 I agree I have found that your salvation seems to be in question by some if you don't speak in tongues. I stopped attending churches that push this doctrine.
 
S

Spark

Guest
#44
The tongues can be a personal thing between us and God , the over flow of the Holy spirit moving with in us. Or speaking in tongues is a message for a person or for a congregation from God. I know of someone who heard a tongue message at a church on holiday and known what was being said when no one else in the room could understand it. The message was for that person in their own language.
Prophecy is also a message from God,one of the ways God speaks to us.God uses the Holy spirit to give people words or a picture or a song or scripture for encouragement and growing.
It says we should desire the gifts.
We can have more than one gift .
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#45
On the day of Pentecost the people outside heard the Apostles praising God in their own language and dialect. There was no Jibber jabbering! Everyone understood what the Apostles, especially Peter, were saying.

This jibber jabber that goes on today is mumbo jumbo. And the doctrine that says Tongues is the only proof of The Holy Spirit is just not sound.

As I said to someone else talking in tongues is not mumbo jumbo and as one who believes in tongues I worry when I hear someone speaking this way about the moving of the Holy Spirit.I know tongues to be real when used correctly and in order just as the Bible says.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#46
I've been filled with the Holy Spirit since I was saved. For the first 15 years of my Christian walk I spoke in unknown tongues.

I did not grow as a Christian, and in fact became very discouraged with the shallowness of a theology which emphasized something which accompanied the birth of the church, and disappeared because it was not needed anymore.

I have grown so much since I admitted that in my pride, I thought I was doing something special, when in fact it was a lie, that held me back. I praise God he opened my eyes to the truth, and has been leading me and guiding me in a whole new and marvelous way since I walked away from the pentecostal/charismatic movement.
Im sorry you had that experience but I would have to say you were in the wrong church.When used as the Bible states and in order tongues is a beautiful gift. And it is still for today. I have friends on the mission fields and I can tell you tongues is still in need today.A pastor friend of the family became saved by way of tongues.So I know this to be true.Its unfortunate that it is so misused and not taught properly.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#47
because he leads people tpo believe if you dont speak the tongues then your not a proper Christian.
Anyone who teaches that either has a total misunderstanding of tongues or have a spiritual superiority complex.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#48
First, if you aren't the author of something you should always give the author credit when you do a copy and paste. IF you aren't the author.

Secondly, you very conveniently left off verse 11.
"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

Tell me, did Paul reach adulthood before he wrote this? Of course. He absolutely was telling us that the time had come and gone for tongues, that when we become "perfect" (mature) spiritually we have no use, nor is there any need for tongues.
You, like the others that endorse it, simply want an excuse to babble uncontrollably and claim that you're special because you do.
As another noted, it is the least desirable gift, so why would you want it to start with?
If you get tongues by asking, why didn't you ask to heal people instead?
I find this statement extremely judgmental and very offensive. I traveled in ministry 20yrs.Ive been in just about every church denomination you can name.I have been though all sorts of circumstances that most here will never face. I have sat under some of the most wonderful preachers and teachers. Speaking in tongues is a prayer language at times and other times to bring a message to the church.Ive been in churches where the Spirit fell and people were on their faces before God on the floor. They werent worrying about being special. Because you met a hyper spiritual idiot or idiots dont blame that on the rest of us. How can any gift from God not be desirable?! Utter nonsense! We should be seeking every gift from God that enables us to spread the gospel. The Holy Ghost and fire hit the NT church and they risked their very lives to spread the gospel.Would that we could see that today. Dont tell me the saints of old, who I grew up under,were shallow Christians. They saw people miraculously healed,sinners repent and people in bondage released.They were not shallow,mumbo jumbo speaking,half hearted,immature Christians. That may be your experience of people you have met. But that is a broad generalization. Two stories to prove my point as quickly as I can...


We traveled as a ministry team and had a friend join us who played the guitar.He was of another denomination and he believed tongues was not for today. He was against tongues,period. We had a concert to do at a Pentecostal church.Between singing someone spoke in tongues and everyone waited and there was an interpretation.We went on with the service.After the service we were talking and our friend mentioned the person who spoke in tongues.As we began to explain it he said "you dont have to tell me,I knew what was being said before it was said in English" he seemed rather surprised. He continued to attend his own church but he told people his experience and that he now knew tongues to be real.

Secondly a pastor friend moved to Canada from a foreign land. He knew little English. One Sunday he was passing a church and he heard a woman speaking in his own language.He was homesick so he stopped and listened.The woman told him how to be saved in his own language.He went into the church and after the service he asked about the lady that spoke his language. The pastor told him the lady did not speak that language but was speaking in another tongue.That pastor has a large church in Canada to this day,I sang on the stage myself. Tongues is for today and anyone who thinks it is not needs to explain these to stories to me.I know it to be real.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#49
jaybird88 I agree I have found that your salvation seems to be in question by some if you don't speak in tongues. I stopped attending churches that push this doctrine.
yeah, one of the tongue people here made a comment like that to me. i believe tongues are genuine and many people may have the gift. i also believe this is a very obscure doctrine that few completely understand. it should be dealt with carefully and never pushed on anyone nor should anyone be lead to believe its needed.
 
J

JoelG

Guest
#50
No one has mentioned that speaking in tongues has to do with being able to talk in another language in order to spread the gospel. The Apostles were given this gift. But, this gift is no longer needed and was taken away. It does not mean talking in gibberish. No one benefits with nonsense talk. People put this show on to impress others. If you put yourself in a trace and start to mumble, that is your thing and your thing alone. No one understands you and God don't understand you when you just make sounds with your tongue. It serves no purpose. And, that is what my pastor told us. Speaking in tongues means speaking in a foreign language.
And, this can be found in 1 Corinthians: 13.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#51
No one has mentioned that speaking in tongues has to do with being able to talk in another language in order to spread the gospel. The Apostles were given this gift. But, this gift is no longer needed and was taken away. It does not mean talking in gibberish. No one benefits with nonsense talk. People put this show on to impress others. If you put yourself in a trace and start to mumble, that is your thing and your thing alone. No one understands you and God don't understand you when you just make sounds with your tongue. It serves no purpose. And, that is what my pastor told us. Speaking in tongues means speaking in a foreign language.
And, this can be found in 1 Corinthians: 13.
we talked on that point quiet a bit but you probably didnt see it as there have been like a zillion tongue threads in the last few weeks.
 
S

shotgunner

Guest
#52
I'll not argue at all or try to prove anything with scripture. Anyone wanting to learn can seek the scriptures for themselves. I will tell you of my experience with tongues.

When I was first saved I wanted to learn about tongues because I had read about the gift in Acts and Cor. I asked a pastor of the free will Baptists. He gave me a book that basically said it was passed away. I didn't accept that and kept seeking. I started attending a church where the pastor was an excellent bible teacher. I learned that there are different kinds of tongues. There is the prayer language that all believers can have which is only between them and God. There is another specific gift of tongues which can be a message for interpretation given in the church. This gift is given as the Spirit wills. There is also a kind of tongue where the speaker is speaking in a language unknown to him but not to the hearer. This is also a gift as the Spirit wills.

The prayer language that is for all believers is simply an act of faith. the person is doing the speaking but doesn't know what he is saying except that he knows he is pouring out his heart to God in an attitude of prayer. I began to practice this prayer language tongue. At first I felt silly but as I kept on I realized I was somehow able to express all the things to God that I had previously been unable to articulate. It seemed that now I could express my love and devotion better than simply saying I love and worship you God.

Another unexpected thing started happening. The more I prayed in tongues, the more revelation I started seeing in the scriptures. It was if I suddenly say verses that I had read yet hadn't really seen or understood before. I believe it was because the Holy Spirit is our teacher and by my act of faith concerning praying in tongues, I was yielding myself to the Holy Spirit. I also found that I didn't get angry as fast and I had more peace than I previously had. I suppose because the Holy Spirit is our comforter and by my act of faith I was yielding myself to the Holy Spirit.

Now remember when I started my prayer language I felt foolish, but the scripture tells us that the things of God are foolish to the natural mind. I urge anyone to do what I did. Try it alone in your prayer time. You won't mess up or make a mistake as long as you are wanting to express your love and devotion to God by this foolish to the natural mind, act of faith.
 
Jul 1, 2015
584
9
0
#53
I find this statement extremely judgmental and very offensive. I traveled in ministry 20yrs.Ive been in just about every church denomination you can name.I have been though all sorts of circumstances that most here will never face. I have sat under some of the most wonderful preachers and teachers. Speaking in tongues is a prayer language at times and other times to bring a message to the church.Ive been in churches where the Spirit fell and people were on their faces before God on the floor. They werent worrying about being special. Because you met a hyper spiritual idiot or idiots dont blame that on the rest of us. How can any gift from God not be desirable?! Utter nonsense! We should be seeking every gift from God that enables us to spread the gospel. The Holy Ghost and fire hit the NT church and they risked their very lives to spread the gospel.Would that we could see that today. Dont tell me the saints of old, who I grew up under,were shallow Christians. They saw people miraculously healed,sinners repent and people in bondage released.They were not shallow,mumbo jumbo speaking,half hearted,immature Christians. That may be your experience of people you have met. But that is a broad generalization. Two stories to prove my point as quickly as I can...


We traveled as a ministry team and had a friend join us who played the guitar.He was of another denomination and he believed tongues was not for today. He was against tongues,period. We had a concert to do at a Pentecostal church.Between singing someone spoke in tongues and everyone waited and there was an interpretation.We went on with the service.After the service we were talking and our friend mentioned the person who spoke in tongues.As we began to explain it he said "you dont have to tell me,I knew what was being said before it was said in English" he seemed rather surprised. He continued to attend his own church but he told people his experience and that he now knew tongues to be real.

Secondly a pastor friend moved to Canada from a foreign land. He knew little English. One Sunday he was passing a church and he heard a woman speaking in his own language.He was homesick so he stopped and listened.The woman told him how to be saved in his own language.He went into the church and after the service he asked about the lady that spoke his language. The pastor told him the lady did not speak that language but was speaking in another tongue.That pastor has a large church in Canada to this day,I sang on the stage myself. Tongues is for today and anyone who thinks it is not needs to explain these to stories to me.I know it to be real.
Awesome post and beautifully put: thank you!
 
Jul 1, 2015
584
9
0
#54
I'll not argue at all or try to prove anything with scripture. Anyone wanting to learn can seek the scriptures for themselves. I will tell you of my experience with tongues.

When I was first saved I wanted to learn about tongues because I had read about the gift in Acts and Cor. I asked a pastor of the free will Baptists. He gave me a book that basically said it was passed away. I didn't accept that and kept seeking. I started attending a church where the pastor was an excellent bible teacher. I learned that there are different kinds of tongues. There is the prayer language that all believers can have which is only between them and God. There is another specific gift of tongues which can be a message for interpretation given in the church. This gift is given as the Spirit wills. There is also a kind of tongue where the speaker is speaking in a language unknown to him but not to the hearer. This is also a gift as the Spirit wills.

The prayer language that is for all believers is simply an act of faith. the person is doing the speaking but doesn't know what he is saying except that he knows he is pouring out his heart to God in an attitude of prayer. I began to practice this prayer language tongue. At first I felt silly but as I kept on I realized I was somehow able to express all the things to God that I had previously been unable to articulate. It seemed that now I could express my love and devotion better than simply saying I love and worship you God.

Another unexpected thing started happening. The more I prayed in tongues, the more revelation I started seeing in the scriptures. It was if I suddenly say verses that I had read yet hadn't really seen or understood before. I believe it was because the Holy Spirit is our teacher and by my act of faith concerning praying in tongues, I was yielding myself to the Holy Spirit. I also found that I didn't get angry as fast and I had more peace than I previously had. I suppose because the Holy Spirit is our comforter and by my act of faith I was yielding myself to the Holy Spirit.

Now remember when I started my prayer language I felt foolish, but the scripture tells us that the things of God are foolish to the natural mind. I urge anyone to do what I did. Try it alone in your prayer time. You won't mess up or make a mistake as long as you are wanting to express your love and devotion to God by this foolish to the natural mind, act of faith.
Praise the Lord! Thank you!!