Peter before he received the Holy Ghost...or Peter after he received the Holy Ghost

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K

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
#61
Oct 8, 2017
1,881
717
113
#61
Gardenias said:
I have some ponderings myself.
1.Eventhough the disciples followed Jesus were they saved or was it after his death?
2.The Spirit ( who is also God) moved upon many people in the old testament but few were FILLED with the Spirit,was the filling saved for after salvation came to the world by Jesus and for what purpose except empowerment in our ministry? Acts1:8
3.salvation a gift, Holy Ghost as gift? Acts 2:38
4. Holy Spirit, the begining of salvation for it is he that brings a spirit of conviction of sin against a non believer
5. I like your question Keby, how can we tell if the Holy Ghost is in someone? Mark 16:17, Acts 3:3/4;19:6 1Cor.12:28
6. If tongues is the initial sign of a believer receiving the Holy Ghost indwelling would this not be our marker?
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I like your post and will reply as best I can to your questions:
  1. Too many people use the word "SAVED" as a vague umbrella instead of understanding and acknowledging the components. I personally think they use it to hide ignorance. I just look for the components. If the components are not all there, the person shouldn't be considering themselves 'saved'. (and their pastors shouldn't be saying it either).
  2. In the OT, the Holy Spirit would temporarily enter or pass through them, only pausing long enough to fulfil a work(s). In the NT, once the Holy Spirit is actually received, it abides forever...so the person can say they are indwelt by the Holy Spirit/Ghost. But to be FULL of the Spirit is to have so much that you cannot contain any more, and cannot contain anything else (such as sin). God FILLS us when the Spirit is first given and received, but too quickly we allow other things to enter in (such as evil thoughts) and we are no longer FILLED, just INDWELT. That's why there is a commandment to BE filled with the Spirit. It takes action on our part.
  3. I don't understand the question. Please clarify.
  4. People seem to miss the concept that the Holy Ghost can minister to a person from the OUTSIDE (think Jesus standing at the door and knocking) If the person follows that conviction and repents, then God can give them the reward for repentance. If the person is also open enough to receive the Holy Ghost, God could enter in and dwell there. If they are open to the other aspects of salvation & life, then God will move to give them those as well. But if the person rejects (stops allowing) God to give them the next step(s) at any point, then they do NOT receive the benefits of those next things.
  5. I'll look up those scriptures and reread them.
  6. Yes.
Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#64
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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113
#64
Corban said:
Aaahhh! Did it HAVE to happen? Did you not say the overtures of God were genuine?
Click to expand...
From Gen 3 its prophesied. God knows when and how to have Jesus enter into human history at that time amoung apostate Jews and the Roman volatile situation what would happen to him.
 
Corban

Corban

Banned
#65
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
#65
Gardenias said:
I have some ponderings myself.
1.Eventhough the disciples followed Jesus were they saved or was it after his death?
2.The Spirit ( who is also God) moved upon many people in the old testament but few were FILLED with the Spirit,was the filling saved for after salvation came to the world by Jesus and for what purpose except empowerment in our ministry? Acts1:8
3.salvation a gift, Holy Ghost as gift? Acts 2:38
4. Holy Spirit, the begining of salvation for it is he that brings a spirit of conviction of sin against a non believer
5. I like your question Keby, how can we tell if the Holy Ghost is in someone? Mark 16:17, Acts 3:3/4;19:6 1Cor.12:28
6. If tongues is the initial sign of a believer receiving the Holy Ghost indwelling would this not be our marker?
Click to expand...
These are questions that are justified and worth the time ponder.
1. There are two totally different events that constitute being saved. Our Lord Jesus said BEFORE He was slain, that should believe on Him and through this have Eternal Life (John's gospel). The death of Christ was a judicial requirement for God to put away sin and sins. Hebrews 9:15 makes clear that the Offerings under Moses did NOT remove sin, and that Christ's death atoned for the sins of old. Thus, Adam, Abel, the Patriarchs, Moses, David and Job, who expressed their BELIEF in the COMING REDEEMER fulfilled the requirements for HAVING eternal life. Their sin and sins were dealt with LATER, but effectively.

2. The record shows many of the Old Testament being FURNISHED with the Holy Spirit (it came UPON them) and "carried" them (2nd Pet.1:21). The issue of God being IN man however, is not revealed in the Old. But looking BACK, we can see certain men having eternal life via the rebirth. Moses was in the Kingdom in Matthew 17 and this is only possible by rebirth (Jn.3:3-5). So also is David (Jer.30:9).

3. Salvation from the Lake of Fire is a gift. HAVING eternal life is a gift. Salvation from your old nature by transformation is a cooperation between God and man. Salvation of the Body by resurrection is a gift. Entering the Millennial Kingdom as co-king with Christ is by works (Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5 + the Parables on the kingdom). The Holy Spirit for POWER is a gift, but is CONDITIONAL on rebirth and Baptism.

4. Correct. Salvation starts by men realizing that they face judgment for sins

5. "By their fruits you will know them". You cannot tell if a man HAS the Holy Spirit. But if he cooperates with it, he will bear visible fruit.

6. Tongues was an outward sign of the FURNISHING (outward, like the prophets of old) of the Holy Spirit for two reasons. (i) To fulfill Joel before men's eyes in only ONE PLACE - the Church of the Man crucified in Jerusalem. (ii) To connect the activities of the Holy Spirit with what happened in Jerusalem. That is, what happened at the House of Cornelius was a proof that it was the same Holy Spirit of Pentecost in Jerusalem. What happened to the Church in Ephesus in Acts 19 was again proof that this was the move of the same Spirit which first moved in Jerusalem. This effectively stopped false teachers from claiming that the Holy Spirit came connected with another source.

One does not need tongues to prove that the Holy Spirit is UPON one. If a gift is given, it will be manifested in due time. If it is not given, the faking of it will also be manifested in due time. The Church is the judge (1st Cor.14:29). Various unofficial (sneaky) surveys have been carried out by various denominations on the phenomena of tongues. Three conclusions were reached:
  1. The faker will speak in an unknown language, but cannot hide his mother tongue accent
  2. The faker will speak a unknown language in a simplistic way with very few intonations/phonemes. Hawaii has 8 phonemes. German has 17-19. Tongue fakers had less than Hawaiian.
  3. A definitive percentage is not agreed on, but all surveys showed that over 95% of so-called tongues were fake
 
Corban

Corban

Banned
#66
Jun 11, 2020
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#66
throughfaith said:
No from Gen 3 we can see that was planned.
Click to expand...
throughfaith said:
From Gen 3 its prophesied. God knows when and how to have Jesus enter into human history at that time amoung apostate Jews and the Roman volatile situation what would happen to him.
Click to expand...
Prophesied - yes. But planned .... With this you cannot say God's overture to Israel with the Kingdom was genuine! But let's not squabble. I have the same problem as you - and most other students of scripture. If God planned something it should come to pass. He is ALL-mighty. His councils are immutable. But we know that our Lord did the WILL of His Father. His Father must have planned it. But where does that leave the genuine overtures? I judge that it leaves them in the same place as understanding eternity and understanding the doctrine/revelation of the Triune God - beyond man's intellect. That they are true is not disputed.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#67
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#67
Corban said:
Prophesied - yes. But planned .... With this you cannot say God's overture to Israel with the Kingdom was genuine! But let's not squabble. I have the same problem as you - and most other students of scripture. If God planned something it should come to pass. He is ALL-mighty. His councils are immutable. But we know that our Lord did the WILL of His Father. His Father must have planned it. But where does that leave the genuine overtures? I judge that it leaves them in the same place as understanding eternity and understanding the doctrine/revelation of the Triune God - beyond man's intellect. That they are true is not disputed.
Click to expand...
I appreciate that response . This is a tough area indeed . At best from scripture we can say from Gen 3 we see a ' plan ' to redeem the situation ,so to speak . Gods purposes will happen of course . Placing Jesus in history at the right time was key. We predict many things from a human level. Like knowing a person will pick icream over dog muck as a snack . Or if you put a pedophile in gen pop in prison he.ll be attacked. How much more with God ?
 
Corban

Corban

Banned
#68
Jun 11, 2020
1,370
424
83
73
#68
throughfaith said:
I appreciate that response . This is a tough area indeed . At best from scripture we can say from Gen 3 we see a ' plan ' to redeem the situation ,so to speak . Gods purposes will happen of course . Placing Jesus in history at the right time was key. We predict many things from a human level. Like knowing a person will pick icream over dog muck as a snack . Or if you put a pedophile in gen pop in prison he.ll be attacked. How much more with God ?
Click to expand...
Yeah. God is just that far above us - and I personally like it like that. I am NOTHING like Him, and in these few unsolvable things He shows how different and how much higher he is. It's nice to have all the answers, but with God we deal with the INFINITE - usually defined as "unable to measure or calculate". I've never understood men who try to drag God down to their puny level. He is GOD.
 
Gardenias

Gardenias

Well-known member
#69
Oct 27, 2020
2,281
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113
U.S.A.
#69
Corban said:
These are questions that are justified and worth the time ponder.
1. There are two totally different events that constitute being saved. Our Lord Jesus said BEFORE He was slain, that should believe on Him and through this have Eternal Life (John's gospel). The death of Christ was a judicial requirement for God to put away sin and sins. Hebrews 9:15 makes clear that the Offerings under Moses did NOT remove sin, and that Christ's death atoned for the sins of old. Thus, Adam, Abel, the Patriarchs, Moses, David and Job, who expressed their BELIEF in the COMING REDEEMER fulfilled the requirements for HAVING eternal life. Their sin and sins were dealt with LATER, but effectively.

2. The record shows many of the Old Testament being FURNISHED with the Holy Spirit (it came UPON them) and "carried" them (2nd Pet.1:21). The issue of God being IN man however, is not revealed in the Old. But looking BACK, we can see certain men having eternal life via the rebirth. Moses was in the Kingdom in Matthew 17 and this is only possible by rebirth (Jn.3:3-5). So also is David (Jer.30:9).

3. Salvation from the Lake of Fire is a gift. HAVING eternal life is a gift. Salvation from your old nature by transformation is a cooperation between God and man. Salvation of the Body by resurrection is a gift. Entering the Millennial Kingdom as co-king with Christ is by works (Gal.5:21, Eph.5:5 + the Parables on the kingdom). The Holy Spirit for POWER is a gift, but is CONDITIONAL on rebirth and Baptism.

4. Correct. Salvation starts by men realizing that they face judgment for sins

5. "By their fruits you will know them". You cannot tell if a man HAS the Holy Spirit. But if he cooperates with it, he will bear visible fruit.

6. Tongues was an outward sign of the FURNISHING (outward, like the prophets of old) of the Holy Spirit for two reasons. (i) To fulfill Joel before men's eyes in only ONE PLACE - the Church of the Man crucified in Jerusalem. (ii) To connect the activities of the Holy Spirit with what happened in Jerusalem. That is, what happened at the House of Cornelius was a proof that it was the same Holy Spirit of Pentecost in Jerusalem. What happened to the Church in Ephesus in Acts 19 was again proof that this was the move of the same Spirit which first moved in Jerusalem. This effectively stopped false teachers from claiming that the Holy Spirit came connected with another source.

One does not need tongues to prove that the Holy Spirit is UPON one. If a gift is given, it will be manifested in due time. If it is not given, the faking of it will also be manifested in due time. The Church is the judge (1st Cor.14:29). Various unofficial (sneaky) surveys have been carried out by various denominations on the phenomena of tongues. Three conclusions were reached:
  1. The faker will speak in an unknown language, but cannot hide his mother tongue accent
  2. The faker will speak a unknown language in a simplistic way with very few intonations/phonemes. Hawaii has 8 phonemes. German has 17-19. Tongue fakers had less than Hawaiian.
  3. A definitive percentage is not agreed on, but all surveys showed that over 95% of so-called tongues were fake
Click to expand...



Thank you.
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#70
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
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#70
Corban said:
Methinks you are looking for a dispute. Yes, the brother asked, in the context of, "when the Holy Spirit was given". He did not balk at my answer, indicating that he so understood it. I even qualified my answer by saying that the title, "New Testament" was man made. I did not ever allude to Jeremiah 31:31-33.

But, pray, tell me, now that you have broached the subject, WHEN was the New Covenant given to Israel? When was "that day"? Where is the House of Israel and the House of Judah whose fathers came out of Egypt? And if a New Covenant has been given, why do Israel still stay dispersed and persecuted under the terms of the First?
Click to expand...
The New Covenant will be made in the future with the nation Israel, after the nation accept Jesus at the end of the Tribulation.

So its not given yet to them.
 
Corban

Corban

Banned
#71
Jun 11, 2020
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#71
Guojing said:
The New Covenant will be made in the future with the nation Israel, after the nation accept Jesus at the end of the Tribulation.

So its not given yet to them.
Click to expand...
Aaaahhh! We're on the same page. Great. Thanks.
 
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