Peter NOT the 1st pope and the keys of the kingdom

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,471
1,404
113
#21
"I say to you that you are Peter, and..." is very awkward, and besides the fact that most of us feel intuitively that Peter is not "this rock", I don't believe the disciples, who were mostly Jews, would accept "this rock" upon which the church was built as being anything other than God.
The rock was the pronouncement that “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God”. Upon this truth the whole church is built. The Roman church tried to insert a terrestrial idea of succession of the earthly throne of the church… something the church never had.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,320
708
113
#22
Hi Inquisitor. Have you read what second century Bishop of Lyons St. Irenaeus wrote about the Church of Rome. Saint Irenaeus had also spent a significant time in Asia, and thus is a witness to the Tradition of both East and West.

Here is what he writes on the Church of Rome in the 2nd Century: "by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority [potiorem principalitatem].

3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spoke with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels.

From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolic tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth."

Taken from: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

Both St. Linus and St. Clement (the 2nd and 4th Popes/Bishops of Rome) are mentioned by St. Paul in Sacred Scripture.

Also, in the above, Irenaeus mentions how doctrinal controversies in the Early Church were resolved. A sect called the Gnostics arose and claimed the God of the Old Testament was an "evil god". The Church of Rome, on behalf of the Universal Church, refuted this by Epistles from St. Clement of Rome, and this is what St. Irenaeus summarizes above.

Wiki links on these Early Church Fathers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Rome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Linus

Scripture on Linus: "21Do your best to come before winter. Eubulus sends greetings to you, as do Pudens and Linus and Claudia and all the brothers and sisters." (2 Tim 4:21)
Scripture on Clement:
"And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life." (Phil 4:3)

Irenaeus is also one of our Early Church witnesses as to when the Gospels were written. He says Matthew wrote when Peter and Paul were preaching in Rome. Both Peter and Paul crowned their Ministry with Martyrdom under Nero in 67 A.D.

All these are pure facts of Sacred Scripture and Church History. Unfortunately, liberalism didn't begin in the 20th century. also, some 16th century Christian writers, sadly, were liberal, and ignored anything in Scripture or History they didn't like.

Magenta, agreed. Being a fisher of men was part of what Peter was called to do. May we all be good fishers of the Lord. In Jesus' Name. Amen. As I mentioned on other threads, I am a Catholic, yes, but also a fairly Ecumenical Christian. God Bless.
A very good reply. It will take me some time to read through the documents. Will reply when I can.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,830
26,003
113
#23
I'm pretty sure God is the rock, and "this rock" refers back to "My Father" in some way.
Jesus is the Rock of our salvation. God is the only Rock of our salvation.

Psalm 78:35
And they remembered that God was their rock, And the Most High God their Redeemer.

Genesis 49:24
But his bow remained firm, And his arms were agile, From the hands of the
Mighty One of Jacob (From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),

Deuteronomy 32:15
"But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked-- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek--
Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation.

Psalm 42:9
I will say to God my rock, "Why have You forgotten me? Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?"

Isaiah 30:29
You will have songs as in the night when you keep the festival, And gladness of heart as when
one marches to the sound of the flute, To go to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

Habakkuk 1:12
Are You not from everlasting, O LORD, my God, my Holy One? We will not die You, O LORD,
have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct.

2 Samuel 22:32
"For who is God, besides the LORD? And who is a rock, besides our God?

Psalm 18:31
For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,

1 Samuel 2:2
"There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no
one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.

Isaiah 44:8
'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?
And you are My witnesses Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.'"

Deuteronomy 32:31
"Indeed their rock is not like our Rock, Even our enemies themselves judge this.

Deuteronomy 32:37
"And He will say, 'Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge?

Psalm 144:1
Blessed be the LORD, my rock, Who trains my hands for war, And my fingers for battle;

Deuteronomy 32:4
"The Rock! His work is perfect, For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice, Righteous and upright is He.

Psalm 92:15
To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

Psalm 62:7
On God my salvation and my glory rest; The rock of my strength, my refuge is in God.

Psalm 28:1
To You, O LORD, I call; My rock, do not be deaf to me, For if You are silent to me, I will become like those who go down to the pit.

Psalm 31:1-3
In You, O LORD, I have taken refuge; Let me never be ashamed; In Your righteousness deliver me.
Incline Your ear to me, rescue me quickly; Be to me a rock of strength, A stronghold to save me.
For You are my rock and my fortress; For Your name's sake You will lead me and guide me.

Psalm 61:2
From the end of the earth I call to You when my heart is faint; Lead me to the rock that is higher than I.

Psalm 71:3
Be to me a rock of habitation to which I may continually come; You have
given commandment to save me, For You are my rock and my fortress.

Isaiah 26:4
"Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock.

Psalm 94:22
But the LORD has been my stronghold, And my God the rock of my refuge.

2 Samuel 22:3
My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, My shield and the horn of my salvation,
my stronghold and my refuge; My savior, You save me from violence.

Psalm 18:2
The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in
whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Psalm 95:1
O come, let us sing for joy to the LORD, Let us shout joyfully to the rock of our salvation.

2 Samuel 22:47
"The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be God, the rock of my salvation,

Psalm 18:46
The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be the God of my salvation,

Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 62:2
He only is my rock and my salvation, My stronghold; I shall not be greatly shaken.

Psalm 89:26
"He will cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.'

Isaiah 17:10
For you have forgotten the God of your salvation And have not remembered the rock of your
refuge. Therefore you plant delightful plants And set them with vine slips of a strange god.

Isaiah 8:14
"Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike
and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 28:16
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly
cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.

Psalm 118:22
The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone.

Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS
BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?

Mark 12:10
"Have you not even read this Scripture: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;

Luke 20:17
But Jesus looked at them and said, "What then is this that is written: 'THE STONE
WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone'?

Acts 4:11
"He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone.

1 Peter 2:6-7
For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE
WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for
those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"

Matthew 21:44
"And he who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

Luke 20:18
"Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces;
but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust."

Romans 9:32-33
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled
over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING
AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

1 Peter 2:4-8
And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the
sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer
up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD,
I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name
under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,087
4,909
113
#24
Scripture is irrelevant to a Roman Catholic. Their traditions trump scripture every time.
yes it’s commonplace in denominationalism “we’re right and your wrong our traditions are of God yours aren’t “

Peter would never have taken or associated himself the title “ the holy father “ or “Papa “

nor would any of the apostles taken or approved of that title

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:9

denominations come up with funky thing. It seems like they are trying to embody God the father in a man on earth as some sort of mediator between God and man I think hats actually what the pope is supposed to be the mediator between God and man for us on earth sort of like a high priest and the Vatican like the priesthood of the ot levites

they are taking Christs work off the table when they try to do that

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭

there is no man with high authority on earth he is on his throne in heaven and has beckoned his disciples to pray directly to the father being one with the son

at no point in scriptire do we find the catholic priest system where you go confess to them and they instruct you how many prayers you need to repeat for absolution they are trying to be the mediator between the believer and God but that’s Christs role alone
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,471
1,404
113
#25
Scripture is irrelevant to a Roman Catholic. Their traditions trump scripture every time.
Agreed.

Also, it was Muhammad's exposure to the Roman traditions that prompted the Hadith writings. Islam, like Roman Catholics, have their "holy books". The Roman Catholics have the Bible+added books + traditions. The Muslims have their Qu'ran + the Hadith (their traditions). Ironically, it's their traditions that make both groups dangerous to the world, generally speaking.
 

Franc254

Active member
Oct 7, 2022
167
36
28
#26
to understand the role of Peter we have to link different scriptures scattered in the ot and the nt....and first we are going to start from the book of Ezekiel chpters 34 verses 10 and verses 17 through to 24 "

Verse 10 "Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My flock at their hand; I will cause them to cease feeding the sheep, and the shepherds shall feed themselves no more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouths, that they may no longer be food for them.”


10 And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats. 18 Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the [c]residue of your pasture—and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet.”


20 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God to them: “Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the Lord, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the Lord, have spoken."


Now from verse 10 we get one new thing...the work of a shephered was snatched from the humans and God himself was to feed his own flock....Humans do not have any responsibility to Lord over the sheep, that work is only for God however God has given the responsibility to feed the sheep to other sheep who have been given the gift and thats where the apostles, evangelists, overseers come from...from verse 10 God is judging between his sheep to distinguish between the fat sheep and the lean and scrawny sheep...the fat sheep did not let the lean sheep eat well...this can be the overseers who have neglected their duty to ensure that the church is nourished or the apostles or the evangelists who kept the message to themselves without sharing the whole word of God to other members of the Church and thats why before Jesus ascended to Heaven he tells peter to feed his sheep


John 21:15-17
15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of [b]Jonah, do you love Me more than these?”

He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I [c]love You.”

He said to him, “Feed My lambs.”


16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of [d]Jonah, do you love Me?”

He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I [e]love You.”

He said to him, “Tend My sheep.”


17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of [f]Jonah, do you [g]love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?”

And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.”

Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep.


now Peter is not being told to feed the lambs as a shephered rather as a member of the flock but with the gifts given to him by the shephered ....so he's not above the other sheep rather he has been tasked to take care of the other sheep ....so when he adressed the elders as fellow elders this was a clear indication that even the other elders were equal to him in his satus as a sheep ....now in regards to the rock...Peter is not the rock...Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built and that rock can never be shaken ever....1st Corinthians 3:9-11
For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. .....


so putting peter on a pedestal is actually very wrong and even blasphemous....even michael the ark angel relied on God when h fought with satan over the body of Moses...he says the Lord rebuke you and this is an arch angel....John was about to bow to an agel who revealed everything to him but the angel said Rev 22:8-9 "
Now I, John, [c]saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.


9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. [d]For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God" ....he says he's a fellow servant imagine that...an angel who has seen God's glory first hand and is calling himself a servant...the pope is a title created by man....a hireling whose work was snatched long before.....peter is a sheep...The pope is a hired shehered John 10:11-13 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a [b]hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep....

and this doesnt fall on just the pope....any authority or person claiming to be an apostle pastor, bishop ....they should know that those words are not titles rather gifts


Ephesians 4:7-8

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”...

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [d]first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)


11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ,....

the pastors, teachers evangelsists are gifts given to men not titles, because if the gift was snatched from you....can you still boast of being an apostle....apostles, evangelsits prophets, pastors...these are gifts given to help feed the sheep not titles....be blessed....questions are accepted be blessed
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,320
708
113
#27
Hi Inquisitor. Have you read what second century Bishop of Lyons St. Irenaeus wrote about the Church of Rome. Saint Irenaeus had also spent a significant time in Asia, and thus is a witness to the Tradition of both East and West.

Here is what he writes on the Church of Rome in the 2nd Century: "by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority [potiorem principalitatem].

3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spoke with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels.

From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolic tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth."

Taken from: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

Both St. Linus and St. Clement (the 2nd and 4th Popes/Bishops of Rome) are mentioned by St. Paul in Sacred Scripture.

Also, in the above, Irenaeus mentions how doctrinal controversies in the Early Church were resolved. A sect called the Gnostics arose and claimed the God of the Old Testament was an "evil god". The Church of Rome, on behalf of the Universal Church, refuted this by Epistles from St. Clement of Rome, and this is what St. Irenaeus summarizes above.

Wiki links on these Early Church Fathers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Rome
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Linus

Scripture on Linus: "21Do your best to come before winter. Eubulus sends greetings to you, as do Pudens and Linus and Claudia and all the brothers and sisters." (2 Tim 4:21)
Scripture on Clement:
"And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life." (Phil 4:3)

Irenaeus is also one of our Early Church witnesses as to when the Gospels were written. He says Matthew wrote when Peter and Paul were preaching in Rome. Both Peter and Paul crowned their Ministry with Martyrdom under Nero in 67 A.D.

All these are pure facts of Sacred Scripture and Church History. Unfortunately, liberalism didn't begin in the 20th century. also, some 16th century Christian writers, sadly, were liberal, and ignored anything in Scripture or History they didn't like.

Magenta, agreed. Being a fisher of men was part of what Peter was called to do. May we all be good fishers of the Lord. In Jesus' Name. Amen. As I mentioned on other threads, I am a Catholic, yes, but also a fairly Ecumenical Christian. God Bless.
A main point of interest, however, is connected with the progress of Christianity among the non-Jewish believers. Tradition holds that the first Gentile church was founded in Antioch, Acts 11:20–21, where it is recorded that the disciples of Jesus Christ were first called Christians (Acts 11:26). It was from Antioch that St. Paul started on his missionary journeys. (wikipedia)

Paul spent a year in that church. Barnabus and Peter also attended the church at Antioch. Many disciples of Jesus left Jerusalem and proceeded to Antioch because of the persecution in Jerusalem.

The disciples were first called 'Christian' at Antioch.

Antioch's pedigree is not based on someone's opinion. Antioch's primacy is based on the scripture itself, not secondary sources.

The Antiochian Orthodox Church traces its beginnings to Acts 11:26: “The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.” The Antiochian Orthodox Church claims that the apostle Peter founded their church in AD 34 and that Paul joined Peter soon thereafter in Antioch. The Antiochian Orthodox Church also points to Acts 6:5, which mentions “Nicolas from Antioch” as one of the first seven deacons, as an indicator of the importance of the Antioch church in the first century. The Antiochian Orthodox Church claims an unbroken line of apostolically appointed bishops from Peter’s time to now.

The church in Rome lost the argument a long time ago.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,320
708
113
#28
to understand the role of Peter we have to link different scriptures scattered in the ot and the nt....and first we are going to start from the book of Ezekiel chpters 34 verses 10 and verses 17 through to 24 "

Verse 10 "Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require My flock at their hand; I will cause them to cease feeding the sheep, and the shepherds shall feed themselves no more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouths, that they may no longer be food for them.”


10 And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord God: “Behold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats. 18 Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the [c]residue of your pasture—and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet.”


20 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord God to them: “Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the Lord, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the Lord, have spoken."


Now from verse 10 we get one new thing...the work of a shephered was snatched from the humans and God himself was to feed his own flock....Humans do not have any responsibility to Lord over the sheep, that work is only for God however God has given the responsibility to feed the sheep to other sheep who have been given the gift and thats where the apostles, evangelists, overseers come from...from verse 10 God is judging between his sheep to distinguish between the fat sheep and the lean and scrawny sheep...the fat sheep did not let the lean sheep eat well...this can be the overseers who have neglected their duty to ensure that the church is nourished or the apostles or the evangelists who kept the message to themselves without sharing the whole word of God to other members of the Church and thats why before Jesus ascended to Heaven he tells peter to feed his sheep


John 21:15-17
15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of [b]Jonah, do you love Me more than these?”

He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I [c]love You.”

He said to him, “Feed My lambs.”


16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of [d]Jonah, do you love Me?”

He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I [e]love You.”

He said to him, “Tend My sheep.”


17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of [f]Jonah, do you [g]love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?”

And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.”

Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep.


now Peter is not being told to feed the lambs as a shephered rather as a member of the flock but with the gifts given to him by the shephered ....so he's not above the other sheep rather he has been tasked to take care of the other sheep ....so when he adressed the elders as fellow elders this was a clear indication that even the other elders were equal to him in his satus as a sheep ....now in regards to the rock...Peter is not the rock...Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built and that rock can never be shaken ever....1st Corinthians 3:9-11
For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. .....


so putting peter on a pedestal is actually very wrong and even blasphemous....even michael the ark angel relied on God when h fought with satan over the body of Moses...he says the Lord rebuke you and this is an arch angel....John was about to bow to an agel who revealed everything to him but the angel said Rev 22:8-9 "
Now I, John, [c]saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.


9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. [d]For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God" ....he says he's a fellow servant imagine that...an angel who has seen God's glory first hand and is calling himself a servant...the pope is a title created by man....a hireling whose work was snatched long before.....peter is a sheep...The pope is a hired shehered John 10:11-13 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a [b]hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep....

and this doesnt fall on just the pope....any authority or person claiming to be an apostle pastor, bishop ....they should know that those words are not titles rather gifts


Ephesians 4:7-8

But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”...

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [d]first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)


11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the [e]edifying of the body of Christ,....

the pastors, teachers evangelsists are gifts given to men not titles, because if the gift was snatched from you....can you still boast of being an apostle....apostles, evangelsits prophets, pastors...these are gifts given to help feed the sheep not titles....be blessed....questions are accepted be blessed
Peter was an apostle to the Jews. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles.

Peter by God's sovereign will was not appointed to be an apostle over the church in Rome. Or for that matter the church in Antioch.

The administration of the Gentile churches was Paul's concern. The New Testament contains a long list of Paul's letters to these Gentile churches. Paul wrote the book on Gentile churches.

If anyone is a pope it will be Paul.

The church at Antioch was riddled with apostles and disciples of Jesus. Paul, Peter, and many others spent considerable time there.
The church in Antioch probably preceded the church in Rome by a decade. Disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

If there is any pecking order amongst churches, Antioch wins hands down.

Looks like the Orthodox Church has the pedigree.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#30
FROM PHILIP SCHAFF VOL 2https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfTheChristianChurchVolume2PhilipSchaff/page/n147/mode/2up?view=theater&q=pope
1666789960483.png
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,471
1,404
113
#31
Peter was an apostle to the Jews. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles.

Peter by God's sovereign will was not appointed to be an apostle over the church in Rome. Or for that matter the church in Antioch.

The administration of the Gentile churches was Paul's concern. The New Testament contains a long list of Paul's letters to these Gentile churches. Paul wrote the book on Gentile churches.

If anyone is a pope it will be Paul.

The church at Antioch was riddled with apostles and disciples of Jesus. Paul, Peter, and many others spent considerable time there.
The church in Antioch probably preceded the church in Rome by a decade. Disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

If there is any pecking order amongst churches, Antioch wins hands down.

Looks like the Orthodox Church has the pedigree.
And Also, during the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15), with Peter present, James the brother of Jesus presides over the meeting and makes the final judgment concerning the Judaizers: "19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God..."

Peter as "the Pope" is a fabrication. As are other office titles created by the Roman church that cannot be found in scripture.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
2,471
1,404
113
#32
FROM PHILIP SCHAFF VOL 2https://archive.org/details/HistoryOfTheChristianChurchVolume2PhilipSchaff/page/n147/mode/2up?view=theater&q=pope
View attachment 244734
There is the catholic church (small c) and then there is the Catholic Church (large c). I believe in the catholic church because it represents all believers in heaven and on earth. The Catholic Church of Rome is a prostitute who fraternizes with world politics. That's why I am careful to include "Roman" when speaking about the Roman Catholic Church; the catholic church is legitimate before God, the Roman Catholic Church is an apostasy.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#33
posted for informing any who would and could derive benefit of Philip Schaffs' work... ..................... FROM page 140 Volume 2 of 'History of the Christian Church' by Philip Schaff
Justin Martyr presented there his defense of Christianity to the emperors, and laid down for it his life; Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Cyprian conceded to that church a position of singular pre-eminence. Rome was equally sought as a commanding position by heretics and theosophic jugglers, as Simon Magus, Valentine, Marcion, Cerdo, and a host of others. No wonder, then, that the bishops of Rome at an early date were looked upon as metropolitan pastors, and spoke and acted accordingly with an air of authority which reached far beyond their immediate diocese.
Clement of Rome.
The first example of the exercise of a sort of papal authority is found towards the close of the first century in the letter of the Roman bishop Clement (d. 102) to the bereaved and distracted church of Corinth. This epistle, full of beautiful exhortations to harmony, love, and humility, was sent, as the very address shows, not in the bishop’s own name, which is not mentioned at all, but in that of the Roman congregation, which speaks always in the first person plural. It was a service of love, proffered by one church to another in time of need. Similar letters of instruction, warning and comfort were written to other congregations by Ignatius, Polycarp, Dionysius of Corinth, Irenaeus. Nevertheless it can hardly be denied that the document reveals the sense of a certain superiority over all ordinary congregations. The Roman church here, without being asked (as far as appears), gives advice, with superior administrative wisdom, to an important church in the East, dispatches messengers to her, and exhorts her to order and unity in a tone of calm dignity and authority, as the organ of God and the Holy Spirit. 1 This is all the more surprising if St. John, as is probable, was then still living in Ephesus, which was nearer to Corinth than Rome. The hierarchical spirit arose from the domineering spirit of the Roman church, rather than the Roman bishop or the presbyters who were simply the organs of the people. But a century later the bishop of Rome was substituted for the church of Rome, when Victor in his own name excommunicated the churches of Asia Minor for a trifling difference of ritual. From this hierarchical assumption there was only one step towards the papal absolutism of a Leo and Hildebrand, and this found its ultimate doctrinal climax in the Vatican dogma of papal infallibility.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#34
From page 138 of Philip Schaffs' 'History of the Christian Church' Vol. 2

Intended to inform.

Interesting to note a possible misunderstanding of this work by excerpting. e.g. The Roman church claims not only human but divine right for the papacy, and traces its institution directly to Christ, when he assigned to Peter an eminent position in the work of founding his church


If excerpted as above the implications are not that intended by Philip Schaff. Makes for a very misleading understanding not only of the authors work but of historicity in general.

EXCERPTIONS ARE PRINT VERSIONS OF SOUND BITES
page 138
The Roman church claims not only human but divine right for the papacy, and traces its institution directly to Christ, when he assigned to Peter an eminent position in the work of founding his church, against which even the gates of hades shall never prevail. This claim implies several assumptions, viz. (1) that Peter by our Lord’s appointment had not simply a primacy of personal excellency, or of honor and dignity (which must be conceded to him), but also a supremacy of jurisdiction over the other apostles (which is contradicted by the fact that Peter himself never claimed it, and that Paul maintained a position of perfect independence, and even openly rebuked him at Antioch, Gal. 2:11); (2) that the privileges of this primacy and supremacy are not personal only (as the peculiar gifts of Paul or John undoubtedly were), but official, hereditary and transferable; (3) that they were actually transferred by Peter, not upon the bishop of Jerusalem, or Antioch (where Peter certainly was), but upon the bishop of Rome; (4) that Peter was not only at Rome (which is very probable after 63, though not as certain as Paul’s presence and martyrdom in Rome), but acted there as bishop till his martyrdom, and appointed a successor (of which there is not the slightest historical evidence); and (5) that the bishops of Rome, as successors of Peter, have always enjoyed and exercised an universal jurisdiction over the Christian church (which is not the case as a matter of fact, and still less as a matter of conceded right).
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
2,320
708
113
#35
And Also, during the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15), with Peter present, James the brother of Jesus presides over the meeting and makes the final judgment concerning the Judaizers: "19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God..."

Peter as "the Pope" is a fabrication. As are other office titles created by the Roman church that cannot be found in scripture.
Next you will be saying that 'indulgences' have no bearing on the forgiveness of sin.

Or worse, that the Inquisitions were not the will of God?

Pictures of Mary and Jesus are images and that is idolatry?

Transubstantiation is a faulty doctrine?

To miss Mass is not a mortal sin?

May I ask on what day you celebrate the Passover?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,696
113
#36
Matthew 16 analysis - Peter being the first so-called pope and provided with the keys of the kingdom
Isn't the whole concept of "POPE" kind of bogus in the first place?
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,024
1,021
113
New Zealand
#38
Peter was an apostle to the Jews. Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles.

Peter by God's sovereign will was not appointed to be an apostle over the church in Rome. Or for that matter the church in Antioch.

The administration of the Gentile churches was Paul's concern. The New Testament contains a long list of Paul's letters to these Gentile churches. Paul wrote the book on Gentile churches.

If anyone is a pope it will be Paul.

The church at Antioch was riddled with apostles and disciples of Jesus. Paul, Peter, and many others spent considerable time there.
The church in Antioch probably preceded the church in Rome by a decade. Disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

If there is any pecking order amongst churches, Antioch wins hands down.

Looks like the Orthodox Church has the pedigree.
Orthodox church?

Isn't that another kind of catholicism? Aka Greek orthodox?
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,559
3,156
113
#39
Orthodox church?

Isn't that another kind of catholicism? Aka Greek orthodox?
It's not enough to just be anti-Catholic, everything must be measured against God's word. Eastern Orthodox prides itself for breaking from Rome; but, when you put its teachings and practices up against God's word it fails miserably.

Eastern Orthodox considers itself the one true church on earth, even truer than Catholicism. Extraordinary claims like this demand extraordinary evidences, but I don't see it. They address their priests as "father" and their churches are littered with icons of Mary and saints, to whom they pray for intercession.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,559
3,156
113
#40
Orthodoxy doesn't have a Magisterium that tells people how God's word is to be interpreted, as in Catholicism. The Catholic catechism reigns supreme for Catholics; however, in Orthodoxy, scripture and tradition are equal to one another. In other words, you can't simply follow God's word, you have to follow tradition as well; and by tradition they mean Orthodox tradition.