Peter NOT the 1st pope and the keys of the kingdom

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DJT_47

Active member
Oct 20, 2022
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#61
What is gratuitously asserted is gratuitously denied.

1) Firstly, do let me know how you know there are to be 27 Books in the NT Canon without Apostolic Tradition? Based on Apostolic Tradition, it was the Catholic Church, in the 4th Century, (382 A.D.) that determined this: "A council probably held at Rome in 382 under St. Damasus gave a complete list of the canonical books of both the Old Testament and the New Testament (also known as the 'Gelasian Decree' because it was reproduced by Gelasius in 495), which is identical with the list given at Trent." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Rome

Martin Luther said: "We are compelled to concede to the Catholics that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all" (paraphrase).

Yet Luther called the Epistle of St. James "an Epistle of Straw": "Therefore, St. James' Epistle is a perfect straw-epistle compared with them, for it has in it nothing of an evangelic kind." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther's_canon#Hebrews,_James,_Jude_and_Revelation You see, important decisions like the Canon of Scripture were never left to the private judgment of one individual. They were taken by Bishops in Councils.

2. Second, what Tradition are you talking about that allegedly contradicts the Scriptures? Apostolic Tradition never contradicts the Apostolic Scriptures. In another thread, you mentioned you believe Baptism washes away sins, as it says in Acts 22:16, correct, DJT? I agreed with that, and gave some Scriptural references supporting that view. The Church Fathers also agreed, and that view is called Baptismal Regeneration: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptismal_regeneration

Even Infant Baptism is an Apostolic Tradition. Origen says: "The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit” (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]). See for source. https://www.catholic.com/tract/early-teachings-on-infant-baptism

And if you want a Scriptural Reference for that, it is the famous passage in Acts 2:38-39: "38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

Children are not excluded from the gift of the Holy Spirit, hence they too can be baptized. Also, based on Col 2:11-12 etc, it is evident that Baptism in the NT has replaced Circumcision in the OT. But Circumcision was administered to children born in Jewish households. So, also, Baptism is given to children born in Christian households. In other passages in Acts, we read that entire households were baptized, a description that almost certainly would have included children: "33 At that hour of the night, the jailer took them and washed their wounds. And without delay, he and all his household were baptized." (Acts 16:33). Compare: "And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him." (Gen 17:27). Baptism is the NT equivalent of circumcision. That is very clear.

Wiki says: "Most Christians belong to denominations that practice infant baptism. Branches of Christianity that practice infant baptism include Catholics,[3] Eastern[4] and Oriental Orthodox,[5] and among Protestants, several denominations: Anglicans,[6] Lutherans,[7] Presbyterians,[8] Congregationalists[9] and other Reformed denominations,[citation needed] Methodists,[10] Nazarenes,[11] Moravians,[12] and United Protestants.[13] Opposition to infant baptism is termed "catabaptism". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_baptism

Apostolic Tradition does not contradict the Apostolic Scriptures. It may contradict someone's interpretation of it, though.

God Bless.
So called Apostolic Tradition when straying from scripture us exactly the problem and exactly what is warned about in the scriptures, adding to or taking away, or not strictly obeying thecword of God.

You mentioned infant baptism as a tradition. This one, unscriptural,
thing alone is a major problem because it violates the very fundamental foundation of salvation. Belief FIRST, confession of belief, repentance, baptism. Infants can't believe, can't confess, have not committed sin to repent of, and are typically poured on of water versus being baptized. IT'S ALL WRONG and contrary to scripture, and part of the false tradition!

Proverbs 14:12

12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,754
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#62
The official title of Eastern Orthodoxy is the Orthodox Catholic Church.
Catholic means "universal!"

"e word catholic (derived via Late Latincatholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικόςkatholikos 'universal')[3][4] comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου katholou 'on the whole, according to the whole, in general', and is a combination of the Greek words κατά 'about' and ὅλος 'whole'."

e word catholic (derived via Late Latincatholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός katholikos -'universal')[3][4] comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου katholou 'on the whole, according to the whole, in general', and is a combination of the Greek words κατά 'about' and ὅλος 'whole'.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#63
Catholic means "universal!"

"e word catholic (derived via Late Latincatholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικόςkatholikos 'universal')[3][4] comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου katholou 'on the whole, according to the whole, in general', and is a combination of the Greek words κατά 'about' and ὅλος 'whole'."

e word catholic (derived via Late Latincatholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός katholikos -'universal')[3][4] comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου katholou 'on the whole, according to the whole, in general', and is a combination of the Greek words κατά 'about' and ὅλος 'whole'.
Whatever, that doesn't change the fact that Eastern Orthodoxy's official name is Orthodox Catholic.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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#64
There is an issue here with the Orthodox church having come from the likes of Corinth.

Corinth was a port city, had many different peoples coming in and out of it. It had a strong pagan influence and the church at Corinth was infected with this background.

So.. unless the churches planted coming out of this reformed.. there is a high chance they were also infected.

I suppose they could have purified their faith, given Paul's admonishment to the church at Corinth.

It's really the likes of Antioch and Colosse and Ephesus that were more faithful, with Paul commending them on several points.

But I would like to see what did happen from the Corinth church planters to spread christianity.

But here is a quote for the ana-baptists..

Cardinal Hosius (Catholic, 1524), President of the Council of Trent:
“Were it not that the Baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers.”—Hosius, Letters, Apud Opera, p. 112, 113.

1200 years! and Cardinal Hosius was writing around 1524.
Antioch on the Orontes, an ancient Greek city on the eastern side of the Orontes River, was one of the most glorious of all the Greek cities in the world.

Paul wrote his letter to the Roman church from Corinth in Greece.

The number of Orthodox Christians is estimated at 12% of the Christian world.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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#65
Catholic means "universal!"

"e word catholic (derived via Late Latincatholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικόςkatholikos 'universal')[3][4] comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου katholou 'on the whole, according to the whole, in general', and is a combination of the Greek words κατά 'about' and ὅλος 'whole'."

e word catholic (derived via Late Latincatholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός katholikos -'universal')[3][4] comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου katholou 'on the whole, according to the whole, in general', and is a combination of the Greek words κατά 'about' and ὅλος 'whole'.
You should repeat this post often. Very few people understand that it means 'universal'. We are all lower case, catholic!
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
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#66
Of course, the "Church" in the NT, is the body of believers, the "Ecclesia", not a man made organization or religion.
The religious people are the ones that attacked our Savior.:):coffee:
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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#67
Whatever, that doesn't change the fact that Eastern Orthodoxy's official name is Orthodox Catholic.
To use a capital 'C' in the word 'catholic', denies the distinct doctrinal separation. Between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.

Every Christian in the world is a catholic. The Greek word 'catholic' means the universal church, regardless of whether you were baptized by Paul, Peter or even Apollos.

The Orthodox churches are definitely catholic as is your church. Yet there is only one Roman Catholic Church.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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India
#68
To use a capital 'C' in the word 'catholic', denies the distinct doctrinal separation. Between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church.

Every Christian in the world is a catholic. The Greek word 'catholic' means the universal church, regardless of whether you were baptized by Paul, Peter or even Apollos.

The Orthodox churches are definitely catholic as is your church. Yet there is only one Roman Catholic Church.
The Roman Catholic Church is also Catholic, i.e. Universal. There are Catholics in every nation and tribe, as Daniel and Revelation imply there will be, which is part of what Nicaea (and the Apostle's Creed before it) meant in calling the Church Catholic, i.e. Universal. I respect the Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy believes in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the Distinction between Bishops and Presbyters, which as I mentioned is taught in Scripture and goes back to the Earliest Church Fathers like St. Ignatius of Antioch, disciple of St. John the Apostle. Since Catholics and Orthodox both accept these Church Fathers, we believe most of the same things with few differences. And you mentioned about 12% of the Christian World is Orthodox (edited to correct the typo). Ok. With 1.3 BN Catholics worldwide, the Catholic Church is >50% of Christian believers worldwide. As I mentioned quoting Philip Schaff earlier, the line of Popes or Bishops of Rome stretches back in an unbroken Apostolic Succession of 265 Successors from Peter to the present Pope.

I pray for Full Unity, in Truth and Love, between all the Christian Churches, so the Great Commission can be completed faster. God Bless.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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India
#69
Rev 7 on the Universality (or Catholicity) of the Church:

The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”


Wow, sounds like a Prophesy of a Palm Sunday Church Service, lol. Anyway, it clearly says there will be a Great Multitude from All Nations who will believe in Christ, and this is what Nicea meant in saying the Church is Catholic or Universal.

Also, Jesus Christ Himself said this: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (Mat 24:14) So here the Lord says the Gospel will be preached as a Testimony to All Nations. Only after this has been done will the end come. This is another verse that shows the Church's Universality.

Finally, those who always believe the End Times is just 6 months away or something also should take notice of this 2nd verse. Yes, Christianity, both Catholic and Orthodox Christianity, as well as Pentecostal and Evangelical Christianity, has already spread to a great extent. Yet, it is clear that many still have not heard the Gospel or come to believe in Christ. Hence, the above passage says, the End Times will not come just like that, but only when the Great Commission is fulfilled much more.

God Bless.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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#70
The Roman Catholic Church is also Catholic, i.e. Universal. There are Catholics in every nation and tribe, as Daniel and Revelation imply there will be, which is part of what Nicaea (and the Apostle's Creed before it) meant in calling the Church Catholic, i.e. Universal. I respect the Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy believes in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the Distinction between Bishops and Presbyters, which as I mentioned is taught in Scripture and goes back to the Earliest Church Fathers like St. Ignatius of Antioch, disciple of St. John the Apostle. Since Catholics and Orthodox both accept these Church Fathers, we believe most of the same things with few differences. And you mentioned about 12% of the Christian World is Orthodox (edited to correct the typo). Ok. With 1.3 BN Catholics worldwide, the Catholic Church is >50% of Christian believers worldwide. As I mentioned quoting Philip Schaff earlier, the line of Popes or Bishops of Rome stretches back in an unbroken Apostolic Succession of 265 Successors from Peter to the present Pope.

I pray for Full Unity, in Truth and Love, between all the Christian Churches, so the Great Commission can be completed faster. God Bless.
The name, 'Roman Catholic Church', is a very specific name applied to a church movement. That has a very specific and insular doctrine from the rest of the Christian world. The Roman church was generating problems for the other churches, centuries before the great schism in the eleventh century.

There are many traditions in the Roman Catholic Church that are not part of the Orthodox church.

There are countless doctrine and church laws that are Roman Catholic, but do not exist in any other church in the world.

As I have said before, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews.

It is impossible to have Peter as the first pope of a Gentile church. This stands against the expressed will of God Himself.

Even Paul opposed Peter when Peter arrived at Antioch.

Galatians 2:9
And recognizing the grace that had been given to me, James and Peter and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, so that we might go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

Galatians 2:11
But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

Peter was uneducated in the scripture and in life, Paul was educated in the scripture and in life.

Paul wrote the book on church doctrine not Peter.

Peter deferred to Paul and that's what Peter wrote.

2 Peter 3:15-16
Just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which there are some things that are hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Your concept of succession is broken.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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#71
The Roman Catholic Church is also Catholic, i.e. Universal. There are Catholics in every nation and tribe, as Daniel and Revelation imply there will be, which is part of what Nicaea (and the Apostle's Creed before it) meant in calling the Church Catholic, i.e. Universal. I respect the Orthodox Church. Orthodoxy believes in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the Distinction between Bishops and Presbyters, which as I mentioned is taught in Scripture and goes back to the Earliest Church Fathers like St. Ignatius of Antioch, disciple of St. John the Apostle. Since Catholics and Orthodox both accept these Church Fathers, we believe most of the same things with few differences. And you mentioned about 12% of the Christian World is Orthodox (edited to correct the typo). Ok. With 1.3 BN Catholics worldwide, the Catholic Church is >50% of Christian believers worldwide. As I mentioned quoting Philip Schaff earlier, the line of Popes or Bishops of Rome stretches back in an unbroken Apostolic Succession of 265 Successors from Peter to the present Pope.

I pray for Full Unity, in Truth and Love, between all the Christian Churches, so the Great Commission can be completed faster. God Bless.
You keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

The 'Roman Catholic Church' is a proper noun (capital letters), a name.

Lower case 'catholic, is a common noun, and is not a name of a church.

The Orthodox church in Antioch preceded the church in Rome.

The church in Antioch was the first Gentile church listed in the scripture.

Peter, Paul, Apollos, Barnabas, whoever, are mere servants of Jesus Christ.

All Christians are brothers and sisters in Christ and there has never been a hierarchy in Christianity.

A pecking order of authority is not a Christian practice. Levels of authority belong in the world and are enforced by the world.

Matthew 23:9
And do not call anyone on earth your father; for only One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Christianity has always been devoid of hierarchy.
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
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#72
As I understand it... Irenaeus (130AD-c.202AD) states that Paul and/or Peter made Linus the 1st Bishop of Rome.
But that isn't even documented well enough to be certain.
Many historians reject the notion that Peter was ever in Rome much before his execution by Nero, speculatively
dating it to about 64AD. And Irenaeus never mentions Peter as being the bishop... and certainly not Pope. Ergo,
probably never the bishop of Rome.

Since Christianity was illegal in Rome until Constantine/Licinius decriminalized it in the Edict of Milan (313AD), it
seems unlikely that there was an official or universally recognized Pope/Pontifex Maximus until after that date.
However, it is recorded that Marcellinus (d. 304) referred to himself as Pope.

A Pontifex Maximus was basically a liaison of a particular religion to the emperor/Caesar... usually selected by the
heads of whatever religion. But sometimes was chosen by the emperor was a title taken by the emperor himself.

In short, it seems impossible to me that the church at Rome had a Pontifex Maximus that would be recognized by
Rome's emperors until Constantine... and probably not until late in his reign. Indeed, the church at Rome wasn't
significant/powerful until Constantine... imho.
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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#73
My grandparents were Ukrainian Greek Orthodox. I went to weddings and funerals at the church, which had a big dome, and amazing "decorations" compared to the Baptist churches I went to for Sunday School. (I am still a Baptist!)

I agree with what you have posted about differences. But you I have missed some important things. Orthodox Christians rely on the Bible, whereas Catholics rely more on their hierarchy and traditions. Of course some Catholics do read the Bible, but it is not the norm! Whereas reading the Bible is very important to Orthodox believers. I think that has helped that church to stay closer to God, instead of relying on priests, rituals, etc.
The Orthodox churches are deeply immersed in tradition also.
Further, Latin was the language for all Catholic worshipers! That only ended in 1963, 59 years ago. All those centuries, Latin was the only language allowed all over the world. It kept the people ignorant, so the church could have power over the people. Really, very sad!
Agree with you on this point. It is hard to believe that the Mass would be conducted in Latin worldwide. Most Christians know so little about Christianity, but then to impose a foreign language on the service. On the one day a week that they gather, borders on a criminal act.
I have trouble believing this happened. Further, the Catholic Church discouraged people from reading the scripture.
Whereas Orthodox churches kept to the language in the country where it's parishioners lived. Ironically, in Canada, the language they used was Ukrainian, which 3rd generation people like myself didn't know. (I'm learning it now!) So they lost from the second generation and on down! My dad spoke only Ukrainian, along with his sisters, till they started school. My dad just stopped believing, although God was gracious to answer my prayers of 30 years that God would save him, 5 months before he died!
Amazing, so glad your father came to his senses. The Lord does answer prayer.
So the Orthodox Church kept the vernacular. In the US there is the Orthodox Church of America, and I think they use English. I'm proud of my Ukrainian heritage (although family members have been killed fighting for Ukraine!) but my grandmother was illiterate. She was the oldest of 10 children, was born in Ukraine, and came to Canada when she was 6. She never went to school, her help was needed for a multitude of jobs, including cooking, cleaning, taking care of her younger siblings, and pulling the plough in spring! (That seems like abuse to me!) But she went to church and would follow along in her Bible, and she gradually began to read it. She also learned to read English reading an English Bible. But she could never read anything else. It's so sad she was deprived of an education, because she was a brilliant woman. But she was content, being able to read her Bible in 2 languages!
Our grandparents were made of different stuff. As tough as boot leather. Your grandmother probably not only knew English and Ukrainian, but may have known some Russian words. Both Russian and the native Ukrainian are spoken in Ukraine.
So language and the Bible were also important differences between Catholic & Orthodox Churches.
Two very distinct differences indeed,
 

DJT_47

Active member
Oct 20, 2022
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#74
You should repeat this post often. Very few people understand that it means 'universal'. We are all lower case, catholic!
We're NOT all lower case or any case catholic. The church is simply the church and it's Christ's church, Christian. UNIversal infers one; uni. We are not all one although we should be, but are divided by man's doctrines and traditions such as exemplified by the "catholic" and/or "Catholic" church.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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#75
Of course, the "Church" in the NT, is the body of believers, the "Ecclesia", not a man made organization or religion.
The religious people are the ones that attacked our Savior.:):coffee:
Well, Jesus started His church with His disciples as a NT assembly of saved, baptised believers (with the exception of Judas)

Matthew 18 is the process of church discipline for a local church, an update of deuteronomy process with Israel for addressing disputes.

Mathew 16 Jesus talks of building His church

Why would he refer to different kinds of churches? One universal and the other local?

It only makes sense if it's the same local church sense in both Matt 16 and 18.
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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#76
We're NOT all lower case or any case catholic. The church is simply the church and it's Christ's church, Christian. UNIversal infers one; uni. We are not all one although we should be, but are divided by man's doctrines and traditions such as exemplified by the "catholic" and/or "Catholic" church.
Ephesians 2:4-6
There is one body (the universal church, Greek: catholic) and one Spirit, just as you also were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

There was and will be, only ONE church, ONE body of Christ, ONE faith.

If you are not lower case catholic (the one body) then you are schismatic.
 

shittim

Senior Member
Dec 16, 2016
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#77
What if "We" are all one, but many who believe they are a part of the "We" are sadly mistaken? :unsure::)
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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#78
Well, Jesus started His church with His disciples as a NT assembly of saved, baptised believers (with the exception of Judas)

Matthew 18 is the process of church discipline for a local church, an update of deuteronomy process with Israel for addressing disputes.

Mathew 16 Jesus talks of building His church

Why would he refer to different kinds of churches? One universal and the other local?

It only makes sense if it's the same local church sense in both Matt 16 and 18.
There has been schisms in the church and even in the first century. Paul addresses one or more of these schisms in his letters. Paul's appeal to the Corinthians concerned a person or people that opposed Paul. The Corinthian church was a splintered church, factions existed in the Corinthian church. Was the Corinthian church alone in this behavior. You can bet your life that as the churches grew, factional elements would also grow. Hence, we have numerous Church councils to address an extraordinary amount of disputes.

Church history has had ongoing schisms from Paul's time, up until the present day. In fact, schisms date back to the era of Moses.

I assume your usage of the word, 'baptized', is referring to the baptism of fire, or I hope it is.
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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#79
What if "We" are all one, but many who believe they are a part of the "We" are sadly mistaken? :unsure::)
The unity of the church is a spiritual truth, certainly not a reality.

One could summarize church history as a history of deep division.

Unification is impossible.

We are at the tail end of the catastrophic history of the Christian church.

Absolutely disgraceful.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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#80
What if "We" are all one, but many who believe they are a part of the "We" are sadly mistaken? :unsure::)
A simple litmus test for any church.

If your church doctrine excludes any Christian from attending your church, then you are a schismatic church.

One church, one primary doctrine, one faith. So simple, but church doctrine and law is far more complex and lengthy.

I want to be absent on that day when Christ returns, what a shocking day that will be for many church organizations.

Factions are a work of the flesh.

Lord help us all.