Please give me your input!?

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wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
1,749
351
83
#21
Yeah.. Son as in 'image' or 'reflection' of the Father.

Not as in born out of the Father or not existing until being created out of the Father.

Jesus is uncreated and eternal. With the Father and Holy Spirit as one being.

Like ice water and steam. Different expressions of the same one material.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
367
83
#22
Jesus is my savior, my only true way to God the Father and His Kingdom. But is Jesus God, or is He Gods Son whom will come gather us children to live in Gods Kingdom with Jesus and God?
Just as an egg has 3 parts (the white, the yolk, and the shell) yet is still one egg, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are 3 individuals unified together to be of one mind and one purpose. The church is also to be unified together, to be of one mind and one purpose. Does that mean every member of the church is the same person? Of course not. We are one by uniting together for the same cause.

Yes, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all Deity (God).
 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
1,227
34
48
#23
so when Jesus says He is one with the Father He in fact means He is the Father?
He is the Son of the Father. Two persons but same substance.

and when Jesus says believers are one with Him, this must mean believers are Jesus?
No, you are you. But in Jesus Christ you are the real you, what you are meant to be: godlike.
Jesus Christ said we are gods (in John 10:34); so, we are one with Him does not mean we are Him, but that we enter into the life and love of the Holy Trinity by believing in Jesus Christ.
 

GuessWho

Senior Member
Nov 8, 2014
1,227
34
48
#24
ok, but then we have just a few sentences later Jesus applying the exact same phrase with believers and Jesus even says its the same. yet your telling me its not the same, it means one thing here (becouse it supports a manmade doctrine, then it means something else over here.
sorry but its not a wise way to interpert scripture, it makes you look like you have no credibility.
It is rather you who lack credibility. The Christian Church always believed that Jesus Christ is God. If you don't, that's your business.

Jesus answers that:
36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

He says "SON OF" the Most High. but you want to remove the "Son of" part and re write it as if Jesus is claiming to be the Most High which is not what the scripture says.
When they accuse Him of blaspheming, Jesus Christ quotes the Law in His defense and the Law (Psalm 82:6) says "I have said you are gods; you are all sons of the Most High". He does not back up from His original claim, but brings arguments (form the Law) to prove His point. And He continues to push their buttons because He implies that He is held higher than them when he says "what about the one whom the Father... " (John 10:36).
So, if Jesus Christ wanted to clarify the "misunderstanding" he could have done a better job. But He didn't want that. He knew that they would get angry when he would repeat that "the Father is in me, and I in the Father" and He also knew that they would perceive it as blasphemy (which they did!)...

John 10:34-39

"34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp."
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,868
650
113
#25
So my conclusion then is that when all is finalized, as Jesus is in heaven as he left earth, and will return such as... and then Will become all in all with and as God to be our king forever and ever?
Jesus is God and man, and the man Christ Jesus the personal human body of God.

God is ruling through the man Christ Jesus for the sake of the saints.

Jesus is at the right hand of God.

There is one God, and one mediator between God and people, the man Christ Jesus.

The man Christ Jesus is the Savior, for only a sinless man can approach a holy God on behalf of mankind.

No man is sinless so God manifest Himself in flesh, and reconciled mankind to Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, God and man in harmony.

There is one throne in heaven, and one who sits on that throne, which is the throne of God and the Lamb, which is God in the glorified body of the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus said all power is given unto Me in heaven and earth.

David said, the LORD said unto My Lord, sit at My right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.

For the Son must reign until His enemies are conquered, and then the Son shall submit to the Father that God may be all in all.

Since the man Christ Jesus is the Savior, God exalted Him to exercise the throne of power, be at His right hand, and when the saints no longer need Him to be their mediator, when all His enemies are conquered, and the saints are with Him, then the man Christ Jesus will stop exercising the throne of power, stop being at the right hand that God may be all in all.

God is ruling through the man Christ Jesus for the sake of the saints, and the man Christ Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God, and the only way we can see God, which Jesus told Philip, if you have seen Me then you have seen the Father, and in Isaiah 9:6-7, that the Son shall be called the Mighty God, the everlasting Father.

The Father and Son are together as one being, God in the body of the man Christ Jesus, although they are Spirit and flesh, and now a glorified body.

God manifest all His attributes to the man Christ Jesus for He is the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,507
482
83
#26
It is rather you who lack credibility. The Christian Church always believed that Jesus Christ is God. If you don't, that's your business.
the church has not always accepted this, the church has been arguing this for 1700 years. before 300 (about) you will not find this argument anywhere, i wonder why???


When they accuse Him of blaspheming, Jesus Christ quotes the Law in His defense and the Law (Psalm 82:6) says "I have said you are gods; you are all sons of the Most High". He does not back up from His original claim, but brings arguments (form the Law) to prove His point. And He continues to push their buttons because He implies that He is held higher than them when he says "what about the one whom the Father... " (John 10:36).
So, if Jesus Christ wanted to clarify the "misunderstanding" he could have done a better job. But He didn't want that. He knew that they would get angry when he would repeat that "the Father is in me, and I in the Father" and He also knew that they would perceive it as blasphemy (which they did!)...

John 10:34-39

"34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp."


so "SON OF" means the exact same thing as the Most High? Adam, angels, psalm 82, all these beings are the Father? how many Fathers are there? this is the same Father that says He is one?
i just dont get how you guys can ignore "son of", you act as if its not there at all. its not the same thing.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
399
83
#27
so when Jesus says He is one with the Father He in fact means He is the Father?
and when Jesus says believers are one with Him, this must mean believers are Jesus?
Methinks you are acting like a wolf in sheep's clothing asking that question. To understand any verse you must put it in context with the verses around it and also with the scripture discussing the same issue. Easiest way is to have a systematic theology book and look up that issue and you will have all verses talking about that issue.


John 10 KJV
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

John 10 NIV
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

John 10 AMPC
24 So the Jews surrounded Him and began asking Him, How long are You going to keep us in doubt and suspense? If You are really the Christ (the Messiah), tell us so plainly and openly.
25 Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Me and rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father’s name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].
26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].
27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.

31 Again the Jews brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?
 
Oct 7, 2018
66
10
8
#28
Jesus is my savior, my only true way to God the Father and His Kingdom. But is Jesus God, or is He Gods Son whom will come gather us children to live in Gods Kingdom with Jesus and God?
---------------------------------
The VERY few who are REAL Christians BELIEVE him!
He said that his Father is the ONLY true God- not himself nor a nameless ghost! (John 17:3)

He said he came to make Him (not 'Them') known, and to do His (not 'Their') will.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,507
482
83
#29
Methinks you are acting like a wolf in sheep's clothing asking that question. To understand any verse you must put it in context with the verses around it and also with the scripture discussing the same issue. Easiest way is to have a systematic theology book and look up that issue and you will have all verses talking about that issue.


John 10 KJV
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

John 10 NIV
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

John 10 AMPC
24 So the Jews surrounded Him and began asking Him, How long are You going to keep us in doubt and suspense? If You are really the Christ (the Messiah), tell us so plainly and openly.
25 Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Me and rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father’s name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].
26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].
27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.

31 Again the Jews brought up stones to stone Him.
32 Jesus said to them, My Father has enabled Me to do many good deeds. [I have shown many acts of mercy in your presence.] For which of these do you mean to stone Me?
context has nothing to do with anything, this is always the "go to" excuse for you guys when you twist scripture to conform to a doctrine.
"one with" means one thing, the meaning is not going to change back and forth throughout scripture, if it did nobody would be able to make sense out of the bible, think about it.
your "context" argument goes right out the window when Jesus uses the phrase the second time and says its the same as the previous. according to you when Jesus says SAME He really means "DIFFERENT"??? are you really willing to stand behind this micky mouse logic, just to defend a man made doctrine?
 
Oct 7, 2018
66
10
8
#30
context has nothing to do with anything, this is always the "go to" excuse for you guys when you twist scripture to conform to a doctrine.
"one with" means one thing, the meaning is not going to change back and forth throughout scripture, if it did nobody would be able to make sense out of the bible, think about it.
your "context" argument goes right out the window when Jesus uses the phrase the second time and says its the same as the previous. according to you when Jesus says SAME He really means "DIFFERENT"??? are you really willing to stand behind this micky mouse logic, just to defend a man made doctrine?
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How many are in YOUR 'Trinity', then?~

John 17: 22- I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one!
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,507
482
83
#31
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many are in YOUR 'Trinity', then?~

John 17: 22- I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one!
if the first "one with" adds Jesus to the trinity then the second should add all believers to the trinity. thats the only way to follow this logic.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,761
376
83
#35
ok, but then we have just a few sentences later Jesus applying the exact same phrase with believers and Jesus even says its the same. yet your telling me its not the same, it means one thing here (becouse it supports a manmade doctrine, then it means something else over here.
sorry but its not a wise way to interpert scripture, it makes you look like you have no credibility.



me and my co worker can be one in purpose, it has nothing to do with anything.


Jesus answers that:
36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

He says "SON OF" the Most High. but you want to remove the "Son of" part and re write it as if Jesus is claiming to be the Most High which is not what the scripture says.
First of all let me say jaybird I cannot believe in one of your later post you said the following. "context has nothing to do with anything, this is always the "go to" excuse for you guys when you twist scripture to conform to a doctrine." Your being hypocrital because you just used context with me when I quoted John 10:30, "I and the Father WE are one." when you ran to John 10:36 and said, "but then we have just a few sentences later Jesus applying the exact same phrase with believers and Jesus even says its the same." This is using "context."

Secondly, your completly clueless as to why Jesus quoted Psalm 82:6. It was to make a very important point. And btw, the gods at Psalm 82:6 are not really "gods" but men/judges who were acting on God's behalf and God says they will die like the men they are because they were corrupt.

So Jesus is taking the the Jew's statement about Him blaspheming to its logical conclusion. That is that the Jews's are being inconsistent, Jesus is saying "Ifg your say that I am blaspheming you must also hold that God is blaspheming because He said to those by whom the word of God came, "ye are gods." Nowhere does Jesus take back His statement and say that He is not one in nature with His Father. We already know that Jesus Christ is one in purpose with the Father, that's a given.

Moreover, the Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant when He/Jesus (literally said in the Greek) "I and the Father we are one." And you know what is even more interesting? The subject/context is about Jesus being one in nature with His Father because He is giving His own commentary of the context by bringing up Psalm 82:6 because it's about the issue of "gods." Now, I already know that your going to say, "But at vs36 Jesus is claiming to be the "Son of God" and not the true God. Apparently your not familar with the Jewish idiom, "the son of." So what say you mr. no context? :eek: PS: I'll have a lot more to say about Jesus being God later on because I want you to notice at John 10:31 that little word "AGAIN."

IN GOD THE SON.
bluto
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,152
7,961
113
#36
Jesus is my savior, my only true way to God the Father and His Kingdom. But is Jesus God, or is He Gods Son whom will come gather us children to live in Gods Kingdom with Jesus and God?
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST = GOD = THE SON OF GOD = THE SON OF MAN = EMMANUEL = THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY = THE LAMB OF GOD.

All those names and titles (plus many others) apply to Christ. Jesus of Nazareth is fully God and also fully sinless Man. But "Son of God" or "the only begotten Son of God" means an eternal and unique Father-Son relationship within the Godhead.
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
121
43
#37
Allow me to offer an imperfect analogy: my Dad is human; I am human, and I am his son. The Father is God; Jesus is God, and Jesus is the Father's Son.

Titus 3:9 "we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ".

You are your father's son because you had a MOTHER.

Yeshua, explained to us by Paul in Colossians is First - Last, Alpha and Omega, CREATOR of ALL. So He never had a mother although He also had Mary (who gave Him no DNA).

You have your mother's DNA, if Christ had His mom (Mary's DNA) He would be the same as a Greek god/goddess. He was implanted as a fertile seed within the tomb of Mary like we can now do through in vitro fertilization ivf.

Big difference between you and your human dad to Yeshua and Yahweh!!
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,708
10,646
113
#38
Jesus is my savior, my only true way to God the Father and His Kingdom. But is Jesus God, or is He Gods Son whom will come gather us children to live in Gods Kingdom with Jesus and God?
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
(Isaiah 43:11)
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,761
376
83
#39
Bingo!~ that's why it isn't really "logic"!
The Trinity is totally logical based on the fact that God is "NOT" illogical although sometimes He is "a-logical" which means He goes beyond logic. Now, since Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God according to John 3:16 can you please give me an example of a son that does not share the same nature as it's father? Just one question mark? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Oct 7, 2018
66
10
8
#40
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST = GOD = THE SON OF GOD = THE SON OF MAN = EMMANUEL = THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY = THE LAMB OF GOD.

All those names and titles (plus many others) apply to Christ. Jesus of Nazareth is fully God and also fully sinless Man. But "Son of God" or "the only begotten Son of God" means an eternal and unique Father-Son relationship within the Godhead.
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Thus he denies what Jesus taught. Sad.