Please help me to respond to some of my non-trinitarian friends

[TMS]

One thing that has help me with the Godhead and how it works is coming to the understanding that we will never fully comprehend God... we should not put human reasoning into what God is.

Be humble enough to accept what the word tells us and don't try to invent or put human reasoning into understanding the all powerful God.

God is one
JESUS IS GOD
THE FATHER IS GOD
THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD.

 

[posthuman]

They saw God as He wanted to appear to them.
Appear to them in a manner they could relate to.

No one see God and live?

We now see God.
Why can we?

We have been crucified with Christ!
We died so He may live in our hearts!

We must reconcile Exodus 24:11 with this:

John 1:18​

No one has seen God at any time. ​

​

and this is the reconciliation:

Colossians 1:15​

He is the image of the invisible God​

​

Christ is God and there is only one God - He is The Angel of YHVH, and YHVH is God, and the Spirit of YHVH is God: there is only one God, and the Father is God, and the Son is God, and His Spirit is God.

every time the invisible God has been seen, it has been Jesus Christ. He is the express, exact image of the invisible God. He is YHVH manifest in the flesh. the evidence of this is overwhelming.

 

[posthuman]

@decipher

put Exodus 24:9-11 next to Deuteronomy 4:35 & 6:4, Exodus 33:20, John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12

there is a problem. there is a problem even if you only take the passages from Torah, if you speak to a Jew who denies Christ.

the deity of Christ, His Oneness with The Father but unique personhood, is the only way it can be reconciled.
then all that is left to reach the mystery of the trinity is the deity of the Spirit of God. that part is easy, Psalm 139:7-8 for example identifies the Spirit of YHVH as equivalent to YHVH.

if they balk show them Judges 13

 

[posthuman]

it was Christ in the garden with Adam

it was Christ in the burning bush with Moses

it was Christ in the glory that went before them in the wilderness, dwelt in the tabernacle between the cherubim, and the shekinah glory that filled the temple - He laid that glory aside, and became flesh, pitching His tent among us

 

[Genez]

We must reconcile Exodus 24:11 with this:

John 1:18​

No one has seen God at any time. ​

​

and this is the reconciliation:

Colossians 1:15​

He is the image of the invisible God​

​

Christ is God and there is only one God - He is The Angel of YHVH, and YHVH is God, and the Spirit of YHVH is God: there is only one God, and the Father is God, and the Son is God, and His Spirit is God.

every time the invisible God has been seen, it has been Jesus Christ. He is the express, exact image of the invisible God. He is YHVH manifest in the flesh. the evidence of this is overwhelming.

How can you or anyone see God as God actually is?

No one could stand back far enough from Him to see Him!

How could you?
He is everywhere present!
That means?

While trying to look at Him He would be everywhere behind you!
Everywhere present beneath your feet!!
And, everywhere present above you!

You can not see God, as God is, without Him having a second nature in union.

No one can not stand back far enough from omnipresence to see it!
For no matter how far you back up He will always be all around you!

 

[RR]

There are so many points in the Bible pointing toward Jesus being One with God that one hardly knows where to start.

Careful there ... "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. ... I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us." John 17:11, 21

 

[Mem]

One thing that has help me with the Godhead and how it works is coming to the understanding that we will never fully comprehend God... we should not put human reasoning into what God is.

Be humble enough to accept what the word tells us and don't try to invent or put human reasoning into understanding the all powerful God.

God is one
JESUS IS GOD
THE FATHER IS GOD
THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD.

This is the most often given answer, which is true.
However, perhaps applying the rule of identity, a=a, might provide a more thorough explanation. That is, when checking whether the above is true using this rule, the identical statements would be:
God is the Holy Spirit
God is the Father
God is the Man, Jesus, who is both Son of God and Son of Man...
and these are One (echad; indicates unity in plurality, along with the distinction of the use of the definite articles "the" indicating a definite, or a certain, particular, "one" as opposed to the indefinite article "a" which indicates one of a group of others). There is no group of gods. God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Now, applying the rule of identity to see whether the statement, "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God," is true,
we see the identical expression is, "God are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (although this exercise is not to imply that this statement does not entirely qualify as true, but, for the sake of the exercise,) we see that "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is God" conveys more accurately to a God alone understanding of, "God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit."

 

[Adstar]

Careful there ... "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. ... I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us." John 17:11, 21

Whats the point of quoting scripture with no added conclusion???

Here have a read of the following..

(Genesis 15:11-13) "And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away. {12} And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. {13} And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;"

Can you see how pointless just quoting random scriptures can be without comentary and conclusions..

 

[Magenta]

Whats the point of quoting scripture with no added conclusion???

His conclusion stands against the Deity of Jesus Christ despite the testimony of Scripture.

John 1:1 + 14a

1 John 5:10-11

 

[decipher]

Thank you all for your responses. I let my non-trinitarian friend read all of them but he points out that no Jews who converted to Christianity ever challenged the Trinity (lack of controversy). If the Trinity is true, then Jesus and His apostles must have believed it and taught it. The lack of controversy amongst the Jewish Christians shows that the subject was never elaborated on because it did not exist in their minds at that time. The NT is full of controversies, from factions to speaking in tongues, to impropriety at communion, over whether Gentiles could be accepted into Christianity, whether gentiles should be circumcized, over whether justification came through the works of the law or by faith, etc. The Trinity was not one of them.
Also, he says that:
God is always addressed using singular personal pronouns (you). In our language the pronoun "you" can be singular or plural. In the NT the singular or plural of "you" uses different word forms. God is always spoken of using singular personal pronouns (He, not they). God almost always speaks using singular personal pronouns (I,not we, my, not our, me, not us(except the four "us texts" in which God is including others in an action (Gen 1: 26, Gen 3: 22, Gen 11: 7, and Isaiah 6:8))). Singular personal pronouns are used for singular persons. If God were a trinity, we should find plural pronouns, but we don't. Thousands of times we are confronted by the fact that God is a single individual.

 

[Adstar]

Thank you all for your responses. I let my non-trinitarian friend read all of them but he points out that no Jews who converted to Christianity ever challenged the Trinity (lack of controversy). If the Trinity is true, then Jesus and His apostles must have believed it and taught it. The lack of controversy amongst the Jewish Christians shows that the subject was never elaborated on because it did not exist in their minds at that time.

The New Testament reveals something very different to that conclusion..

(John 20:26-29) "¶ And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. {27} Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. {28} And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. {29} Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."


The NT is full of controversies, from factions to speaking in tongues, to impropriety at communion, over whether Gentiles could be accepted into Christianity, whether gentiles should be circumcized, over whether justification came through the works of the law or by faith, etc. The Trinity was not one of them.

So that shows that trinity was a confirmed belief umongst those who had recieved the baptism of the Holy Spirit..

Also, he says that:
God is always addressed using singular personal pronouns (you). In our language the pronoun "you" can be singular or plural. In the NT the singular or plural of "you" uses different word forms. God is always spoken of using singular personal pronouns (He, not they). God almost always speaks using singular personal pronouns (I,not we, my, not our, me, not us(except the four "us texts" in which God is including others in an action (Gen 1: 26, Gen 3: 22, Gen 11: 7, and Isaiah 6:8))). Singular personal pronouns are used for singular persons. If God were a trinity, we should find plural pronouns, but we don't. Thousands of times we are confronted by the fact that God is a single individual.

(Genesis 1:26) "¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

 

[decipher]

In answer to most of your posts my friend says:
Our reality is in the mind of the Father.
The Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father communicates with, speaks through, and empowers the beings He indwells.
Matt 11: 27 All things are delivered unto me by my Father, and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, except the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.
God the Father has god-like qualities such as being everywhere at once, knows what everyone is thinking and feeling, can do anything, knows everything including past, present, and future, has always existed, and can create realities in His mind. That is how He has all those qualities. Our reality is in the mind of the Father.
Isaiah 65: 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
The beginning of our reality started when the Father placed a living being in it, with his own mind, heart, and soul, and through which he would be able to interact. The vehicle for this interaction is His Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 63: 9-10 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit; therefore, He was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
In this scripture Isaiah is stating that the Holy Spirit is the angel of God's (the Father's) presence. Where His Holy Spirit is, the Father is. He refers to the Holy Spirit as an angel because it can be sent. The Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father communicates, speaks through, and empowers those indwelled.
Psalms 139: 7-8 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in sheol, behold, thou art there.
The Father fills this living being with His Holy Spirit so that this living being is filled with His presence, and together they create our reality.
Our reality was created by the Father through this being. That is what is meant by the expression "sitting on the right hand of the Father". This being was the first and only being formed from the Father and he is the temple of the Father in our reality. That is why this being is the offspring of the Father and is referred to as the only begotten Son of God, and the image of the invisible God, because the Father's presence (His Holy Spirit) resides in His Son. The Father loves His Son and the Son loves the Father and obeys Him. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son subjugates His will to the Father's. The Father created all things in our reality through His Son and for His Son. All things created are placed by the Father under the Son's feet. I believe that makes the Son Lord of all creation as well as the God of all creation, but the Father is the one God of all, including His Son.
Col 1: 15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation; For by him were all things created, that are in heaven , and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by him and for him; and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Our reality is in the mind of the Father. That is why He knows all things, is everywhere, is all powerful, and can do all things. The Father interacts with our reality through Christ, who is a Spirit with His own mind but is also filled with the Spirit of the Father who formed Him. Just like Christ is the temple of the invisible Father, we are the temple of both the Father and the Son because they both reside in us who are saved.

 

[Genez]

Careful there ... "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. ... I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us." John 17:11, 21

That oneness comes from having received the Word of God and the filling of God the Holy Spirit in the Believer.

​

I have given them your Word and the world has hated them, ​

for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world." 17:14​

I noticed how you skipped over and avoided that verse.

Careful now.

 

[posthuman]

Thank you all for your responses. I let my non-trinitarian friend read all of them but he points out that no Jews who converted to Christianity ever challenged the Trinity (lack of controversy). If the Trinity is true, then Jesus and His apostles must have believed it and taught it. The lack of controversy amongst the Jewish Christians shows that the subject was never elaborated on because it did not exist in their minds at that time. The NT is full of controversies, from factions to speaking in tongues, to impropriety at communion, over whether Gentiles could be accepted into Christianity, whether gentiles should be circumcized, over whether justification came through the works of the law or by faith, etc. The Trinity was not one of them.
Also, he says that:
God is always addressed using singular personal pronouns (you). In our language the pronoun "you" can be singular or plural. In the NT the singular or plural of "you" uses different word forms. God is always spoken of using singular personal pronouns (He, not they). God almost always speaks using singular personal pronouns (I,not we, my, not our, me, not us(except the four "us texts" in which God is including others in an action (Gen 1: 26, Gen 3: 22, Gen 11: 7, and Isaiah 6:8))). Singular personal pronouns are used for singular persons. If God were a trinity, we should find plural pronouns, but we don't. Thousands of times we are confronted by the fact that God is a single individual.

the objection thy no one argued about it doesn't prove no one had any conception of it, but i gotta say the idea that if Jews ever considered it they would have argued about it is pretty funny!

trinitarianisn is not polytheism, so the objection about pronoun case is moot.

does your friend believe in the deity of Christ?

that is how the language we use today to describe tri-unity came about, historically. the truth of the doctrine of the deity of Christ was not in question, so the discussion became whether God is only manifesting Himself to us in different forms at different times ((the ancient heresy of modalism, nowadays present in oneness pentecostalism)), or if the Son and the Spirit have some kind of individual personhood. because there are clear interactions between the Godhead, e.g. the Father sending the Son, the Son sending the Spirit, the conclusion is that they are both distinct and one.

one example is here:

Revelation 22:3​

And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.​

the Spirit is authoring this, individual from God and the Lamb, and it is the word of God, so the Spirit is also equivalently God.
the throne is singular, one throne - but it is the throne of both God and the Lamb, making the Lamb both distinct from God and equally God.
also 'His' and and 'Him' are singular, but refer to both God and the Lamb - so there is only one God, and both the Lamb and God are God.

head spinning, i know, but why should it be otherwise? the nature of God is not like our nature, it should not be a surprise that we can hardly conceive of or understand it.

 

[SonJudgment]

Thank you all for your responses. I let my non-trinitarian friend read all of them but he points out that no Jews who converted to Christianity ever challenged the Trinity (lack of controversy). If the Trinity is true, then Jesus and His apostles must have believed it and taught it. The lack of controversy amongst the Jewish Christians shows that the subject was never elaborated on because it did not exist in their minds at that time. The NT is full of controversies, from factions to speaking in tongues, to impropriety at communion, over whether Gentiles could be accepted into Christianity, whether gentiles should be circumcized, over whether justification came through the works of the law or by faith, etc. The Trinity was not one of them.
Also, he says that:
God is always addressed using singular personal pronouns (you). In our language the pronoun "you" can be singular or plural. In the NT the singular or plural of "you" uses different word forms. God is always spoken of using singular personal pronouns (He, not they). God almost always speaks using singular personal pronouns (I,not we, my, not our, me, not us(except the four "us texts" in which God is including others in an action (Gen 1: 26, Gen 3: 22, Gen 11: 7, and Isaiah 6:8))). Singular personal pronouns are used for singular persons. If God were a trinity, we should find plural pronouns, but we don't. Thousands of times we are confronted by the fact that God is a single individual.

Any serious student of the Bible is going to come to the same conclusion as what the trinity doctrine states since the doctrine is formed from the Bible, and not just the New Testament, but from the Old Testament as well. Your friend is making a fallacious argument from silence. It seems like your friend is trying to twist the trinity doctrine into tritheism, which is a grave error that many make so that they might attack a strawman in order to justify why they do not believe in God, Moses, the prophets, or the apostles.

In answer to most of your posts my friend says:
Our reality is in the mind of the Father.
The Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father communicates with, speaks through, and empowers the beings He indwells.
Matt 11: 27 All things are delivered unto me by my Father, and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, except the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.
God the Father has god-like qualities such as being everywhere at once, knows what everyone is thinking and feeling, can do anything, knows everything including past, present, and future, has always existed, and can create realities in His mind. That is how He has all those qualities. Our reality is in the mind of the Father.
Isaiah 65: 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
The beginning of our reality started when the Father placed a living being in it, with his own mind, heart, and soul, and through which he would be able to interact. The vehicle for this interaction is His Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 63: 9-10 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them; and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled, and vexed His Holy Spirit; therefore, He was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
In this scripture Isaiah is stating that the Holy Spirit is the angel of God's (the Father's) presence. Where His Holy Spirit is, the Father is. He refers to the Holy Spirit as an angel because it can be sent. The Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father communicates, speaks through, and empowers those indwelled.
Psalms 139: 7-8 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in sheol, behold, thou art there.
The Father fills this living being with His Holy Spirit so that this living being is filled with His presence, and together they create our reality.
Our reality was created by the Father through this being. That is what is meant by the expression "sitting on the right hand of the Father". This being was the first and only being formed from the Father and he is the temple of the Father in our reality. That is why this being is the offspring of the Father and is referred to as the only begotten Son of God, and the image of the invisible God, because the Father's presence (His Holy Spirit) resides in His Son. The Father loves His Son and the Son loves the Father and obeys Him. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son subjugates His will to the Father's. The Father created all things in our reality through His Son and for His Son. All things created are placed by the Father under the Son's feet. I believe that makes the Son Lord of all creation as well as the God of all creation, but the Father is the one God of all, including His Son.
Col 1: 15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation; For by him were all things created, that are in heaven , and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by him and for him; and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Our reality is in the mind of the Father. That is why He knows all things, is everywhere, is all powerful, and can do all things. The Father interacts with our reality through Christ, who is a Spirit with His own mind but is also filled with the Spirit of the Father who formed Him. Just like Christ is the temple of the invisible Father, we are the temple of both the Father and the Son because they both reside in us who are saved.

Here your friend sounds like he trying to make a compromise by twisting then the scriptures to a blend of Arianism and subordinationism which is to say that Jesus is a created being and that the Son and Spirit are subordinate to the Father. The problem with this is again, the same writer of the shema is the same writer of Genesis and he says that the Father, the Spirit, and the Word (whom is Jesus) created the world co-equally in the first verses of the entire Torah, which means that there is one God in three persons and that the Word and Spirit are both co-eternal and co-majestic with the Father and are not created beings, and this is pretty much what the trinity doctrine states.

Since your friend is now incoherently jumping from heresy to heresy because he chooses to reject the trinity doctrine he is going to be forced into a paradigm where he has to either lie and twist what the trinity doctrine is or else lie and twist what the scriptures say. He can't really be intellectually honest about the scriptures unless he accepts the trinity doctrine since the trinity doctrine is formulated from the scriptures. This is perhaps the result of him being ignorant to the scriptures. As such I think you have tried your best, but since your friend is bent on being dishonest with you, you don't have to try any further, recommend that he reads the Athanasian Creed and reads the Bible and move on I suppose.

 

[Genez]

the objection thy no one argued about it doesn't prove no one had any conception of it, but i gotta say the idea that if Jews ever considered it they would have argued about it is pretty funny!

Before the Church age, honest Jews who read and spoke Hebrew while reading the Torah, saw without question, deity being attributed to the Angel of Jehovah. And, when Jacob wrestled all night with what appeared to be a man? He confessed that he wrestled with God.

Its when Christianity entered onto the scene with unregenerate Jews becoming defensive about Jesus, that Judaism resisting the Gospel turned into fake news media, promoting lies and spin to avoid the obvious.....

The Torah has recorded a good number of physical manifestations (both as men and angel) that are attributed to being God.

Problem is.. To get a Jew who is determined to resist the Holy Spirit? To admit to this truth?
It can be like trying to get someone who is determined to vote to Kamala Harris, to admit
that Donald Trump did a fantastic administrating job for in his first term.

We are in spiritual warfare...
Unless God opens their eyes?
We are contending with deafness and blindness.

I know this is true. I was born Jewish.

grace and peace ............

 

[RR]

That oneness comes from having received the Word of God and the filling of God the Holy Spirit in the Believer.

​

I have given them your Word and the world has hated them, ​

for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world." 17:14​

I noticed how you skipped over and avoided that verse.

Careful now.

I skipped over 12-29 because it wasn't important to the issue at hand. And the issue is that the Father and Son are one in mind and purpose, just as the church is to be one with the Lord in mind and purpose. That doesn't make them one and the same, as if part of a so-called "God-Family" like some groups teach.

 

[Genez]

I skipped over 12-29 because it wasn't important to the issue at hand. And the issue is that the Father and Son are one in mind and purpose, just as the church is to be one with the Lord in mind and purpose. That doesn't make them one and the same, as if part of a so-called "God-Family" like some groups teach.

One in mind and purpose....

The Word is God. John 1:1

If you know the Word of God? Know it with accuracy and depth?

And you are thinking the Word as the Spirit leads you for a given situation?

You will, by means of that thought made in the Spirit, have full backing of all the power of God.

When it comes to knowing the Word for a given situation?
In essence... In that state? You will be as God in effect for that situation.

But, wait till we get our resurrection bodies!
Actions will be flying at the speed of light when we do.