Please help me to respond to some of my non-trinitarian friends
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From my friend:
Heb 1: 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; It is the Father who is speaking to us through His Son. Christ was already the Father's Son before our reality was created and before he became a human.
John 14 : 10-12 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself; but the Father, that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me for the very works sake. Jesus is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is referred to as the "angel of His presence" in Isaiah 63:9-10. He is an angel because he can be sent, and where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. The Holy Spirit does not speak his own words means that the words spoken are words that come from the Father. In other words, the function of the Holy Spirit is to be a portal through which the Father communicates, speaks through, enlightens, empowers, and changes the hearts of those indwelled by filling it with love.
John 12: 49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father, who sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting; whatsoever I speak, therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
The words spoken by Jesus in John 14: 9 were from the Father not from Jesus.
Heb 1: 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; It is the Father who is speaking to us through His Son. Christ was already the Father's Son before our reality was created and before he became a human.
John 14 : 10-12 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself; but the Father, that dwelleth in me, He doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me for the very works sake. Jesus is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is referred to as the "angel of His presence" in Isaiah 63:9-10. He is an angel because he can be sent, and where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is. The Holy Spirit does not speak his own words means that the words spoken are words that come from the Father. In other words, the function of the Holy Spirit is to be a portal through which the Father communicates, speaks through, enlightens, empowers, and changes the hearts of those indwelled by filling it with love.
John 12: 49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father, who sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting; whatsoever I speak, therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
The words spoken by Jesus in John 14: 9 were from the Father not from Jesus.
This can be a difficult topic to speak about with people who don’t believe. It’s very easy for them to throw passages and put hurdles that can confuse the issues. They will throw the 'blind faith' card at you.
There are many passages to distract, a few examples;
Matt 24:36 - But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
Mark 10:18 - No one is good except God alone
Matt 15:9 - They worship Me in vain, teaching as doctrines the commands of men
John 5:30 of his own self, can do nothing
John 14:28 "The Father is greater than I
So on.....
You have to also remember Jesus was a Jew (I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel) as were many of his followers.
You’re going to need some long discussions
Who decided upon that definition?
When Israel in Assembly used to proclaim the 'Shama' in unison, it was to be heard by anyone listening in.
All the pagan nations around Israel worshiped gods.
God may have had Israel rebuffing them by saying to them, "The Lord "our Gods" is ONE."
It meant something meaningful in the world engulfed in paganism.
Israel in effect was making an open proclamation that opposed paganism.
Pagans hearing Jews in open assembly would be hearing something putting them down.
As for you, and your gods?
Our Lord, our Gods, is ONE!
Satan was always watching....
When Israel in Assembly used to proclaim the 'Shama' in unison, it was to be heard by anyone listening in.
All the pagan nations around Israel worshiped gods.
God may have had Israel rebuffing them by saying to them, "The Lord "our Gods" is ONE."
It meant something meaningful in the world engulfed in paganism.
Israel in effect was making an open proclamation that opposed paganism.
Pagans hearing Jews in open assembly would be hearing something putting them down.
As for you, and your gods?
Our Lord, our Gods, is ONE!
Satan was always watching....
My advice is to tell them that no one is required by God to believe in any particular version of trinity, or in trinity at all to be saved. And tell them that by continuing to trust in Jesus Christ as God's appointed Saviour and Lord of all, both trinitarians and unitarians can experience intimate communion with the Creator of heaven and earth now, and can also have God's promise of an abundant life now and after death, along with a physical resurrection at the end of the age.
Deut 6:4 That is what we called the "Shama!
We used to sing it every Saturday morning service in synagogue.
Hear O Israel... The Lord (singular) our God (plural) the Lord (singular) is ECAHD = a unity of oneness!
Echad was used to describe a cluster of grapes.
Here this might help better understand the Hebrew meaning...
"Echad" is the term used for "one" in Deuteronomy 6:4. To gain a better understanding of this term, a concordance lists the use of this word used elsewhere. In Numbers 13:23, echad is used in "a (echad) single cluster of grapes"; thus, referring to a group comprised of individual grapes. In Genesis 2:24, echad is used as, "they shall become one (echad) flesh." Echad describes the oness or singularity of marriage though comprised of two individual people one male and one female.
http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/4Trinity/DeityHowGodBothThreeAndOne.aspx
Its not that they can not be saved unless they believe in the Trinity.
Its that no can see the Trinity unless he has been born again.
Many born again live according to their flesh. For them spiritual realities can not be grasped properly.
Paul used to warn against such believers with tears as he did...
In Christ .....
Its that no can see the Trinity unless he has been born again.
Many born again live according to their flesh. For them spiritual realities can not be grasped properly.
Paul used to warn against such believers with tears as he did...
Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you
have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do.
For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears,
many (believers) live as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Their destiny is destruction, their god is their emotions, and their glory is
in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things." Philippians 3:17-19
In Christ .....
The Lord is one entity or being. Eternal, invisible, immutable and infinite.
We can see the Lord as he reveals himself to us in scripture. As referenced in an earlier post to this topic: Let us make man in our image and after our likeness. And scripture teaches us that we are made to be body, soul, and spirit. Scripture also tells us that the body is flesh, blood, and bone, a physical likeness of the Lord's spiritual essence. In 1 John 1:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one." In John 1, the Lord reveals to us that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." And again in Heb 1:2,3 "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom he also made the worlds. who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the majesty on high;" Jesus because the Son of God when he was born of Mary, the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.
So describing Jesus in physical terms, he was the Word that was made flesh. Like our bodies, Jesus is the outward essence comparable to the body all the while being like the Father and the Holy Spirit, existing in an eternal, immortal, immutable, infinite, and self-aware state of being. Jesus is a spiritual being who is comparable to our our flesh, which is the outward, apparent, and revealing part of our one self-aware bodies. While we were made in the Lord's image and after his likeness: we are unlike him in that we are; finite, mortal, and temporal individuals. I suspect that after we're in heaven for millions of years, we'll begin to perceive what it's like to be eternal beings, at least in our understanding of the Lord's likeness.
So it's absolutely true to say, "Behold, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one" and at the same time to also say that "Jesus is the Son of God!"
My friend gives a warning to all trinitarians.
2 Cor 11: 13-14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
My friend believes that the Father is the almighty God of all realities. Does the almighty God take orders? Does the almighty God allow himself to be sent ( take orders)? Can the almighty God in any way exhibit emotions since He controls everything and knows the future? God is full of love, but just. Does the almighty God pray to himself? Does an almighty God have authority and power given to Him? The almighty God, the Father, has no beginning. Yet in John 1: 1 we are taken to a beginning. There are only two beings there because creation has not started. One is the Father and the other is His Son. One has no beginning and the other one does. Why are the words Father and Son used? The Father cannot be His own Son. Any son comes into existence after the father. There is more, but I'll stop here. All of this seems obvious and logical. Concerning 2 Cor 11: 13-14, Satan places himself equal or above God the Father. Might the trinity be his method or plan to ursup the Father's authority by having people place others equal to the Father? The Father created our reality through His Son because the Son was filled with the Father's Holy Spirit which is a portal through which the Father makes residence in the being indwelled. It is through the Holy Spirit that the Father communicates His will and empowers in order to fulfill it. The Father puts all things created under the Son's feet. That would make the Son Lord and God of all creation in our reality, but the Father is the One God of all, including His Son. I believe, worship, and pray to the same God that Jesus obeyed, worshipped, and prayed to which is the Father. The Father performed miracles through Jesus when Jesus was a human. He told his listeners that if they didn't believe his words, they should believe through his miracles that he was sent by God. Satan is the great deceiver and those deceived don't even know it.
2 Cor 11: 13-14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
My friend believes that the Father is the almighty God of all realities. Does the almighty God take orders? Does the almighty God allow himself to be sent ( take orders)? Can the almighty God in any way exhibit emotions since He controls everything and knows the future? God is full of love, but just. Does the almighty God pray to himself? Does an almighty God have authority and power given to Him? The almighty God, the Father, has no beginning. Yet in John 1: 1 we are taken to a beginning. There are only two beings there because creation has not started. One is the Father and the other is His Son. One has no beginning and the other one does. Why are the words Father and Son used? The Father cannot be His own Son. Any son comes into existence after the father. There is more, but I'll stop here. All of this seems obvious and logical. Concerning 2 Cor 11: 13-14, Satan places himself equal or above God the Father. Might the trinity be his method or plan to ursup the Father's authority by having people place others equal to the Father? The Father created our reality through His Son because the Son was filled with the Father's Holy Spirit which is a portal through which the Father makes residence in the being indwelled. It is through the Holy Spirit that the Father communicates His will and empowers in order to fulfill it. The Father puts all things created under the Son's feet. That would make the Son Lord and God of all creation in our reality, but the Father is the One God of all, including His Son. I believe, worship, and pray to the same God that Jesus obeyed, worshipped, and prayed to which is the Father. The Father performed miracles through Jesus when Jesus was a human. He told his listeners that if they didn't believe his words, they should believe through his miracles that he was sent by God. Satan is the great deceiver and those deceived don't even know it.
This kind of reminds me of the Democratic Party in the USA who deceive black voters into thinking that they are for them. Since its founding in 1829, the Democratic Party has fought against every major civil rights initiative, and has a long history of discrimination. The democratic Party defended slavery, started the Civil War, opposed Reconstruction, founded the Ku Klux Klan, imposed segregation, perpetrated lynchings, and fought against the civil rights acts of the 1950s and 1960s. In contrast, the Repubican Party was founded in 1854 as an anti-slavery party. Its mission was to stop the spread of slavery into the new western territories with the aim of abolishing it entirely. This effort, however, was dealt a major blow by the Supreme Court. In the 1857 case Dred Scott vs. Sandford, the court ruled that slaves aren't citizens; they're property. The seven justices who voted in favor of slavery? All Democrats. The two justices who dissented? Both Republicans. The slavery question was, of course, ultimately resolved by a bloody civil war. The commander-in-chief during that war was the first Republican President, Abraham Lincoln, the man who freed the slaves. Six days after the Confederate army surrendered, John Wilkes Booth, a Democrat, assassinated President Lincoln. Lincoln's vise president, a Democrat named Andrew Johnson, assumed the presidency. Johnson and the Democratic Party were unified in their opposition to the 13th Amendment, which abolished slavery; the 14th Amendment, which gave blacks citizenship; and the 15th Amendment, which gave blacks the vote. All three passed only because of universal Republican support. During the era of Reconstruction, federal troops stationed in the south helped secure rights for the newly freed slaves. Hundreds of black men were elected to southern state legislatures as Republicans, and 22 black Republicans served in the US Congress by 1900. The Democrats did not elect a black man to Congress until 1935. But after Reconstruction ended, when the federal troops went home, Democrats roared back into power in the South. They quickly reestablished white supremacy across the region with measures like black codes-laws that restricted the ability of blacks to own property and run businesses. And they imposed poll taxes and literacy tests, used to subvert the black citizen's right to vote. And how was all of this enforced? By terror--much of it instigated by the Ku Klux Kan, founded by a Democrat, Nathan Bedford Forrest. As historian Eric Foner- himself a Democrat- notes: "In effect, the Klan was a military force serving the interests of the Democratic Party." President Woodrow Wilson (1912-1921), a Democrat, shared many views with the Klan. He re-segregated many federal agencies, and even screened the first movie ever played at the White House- the racist film " The Birth of a Nation", originally entitled "The Clansman". A few decades later, the only serious congressional opposition to the landmark Civil Rights Act of 1964 came from Democrats. 80% of Republicans in Congress supported the bill. Less that 70 percent of Democrats did. Democratic senators fifbustered the bill for 75 days, until Republicans mustered the few extra votes needed to break the logjam. And when all of their efforts to enslave blacks, keep them enslaved, and then keep them from voting had failed, the Democrats came up with a new strategy: If black people are going to vote, they might as well vote for Democrats. As President Lyndon Johnson (1963-1969) was purported to have said about the Civil Rights Act, "I'll have them n*****s voting Democrat for two hundred years." So now, the Democratic Party prospers on the votes of the very people it has spent much of its history oppressing. Democrats falsely claim that the Republican Party is the villain, when in reality it's the failed policies of the Democratic Party that have kept blacks down. Massive government welfare has decimated the black family. Opposition to school choice has kept them trapped in failing schools. Politically correct policing has left black neighborhoods defenseless against violent crime.
Amazingly, blacks still blindly vote democrat because, just like me at one time, I was lead to believe that democrats are for the poor people and republicans for the rich. Blacks are not the only ones that are being deceived.
Amazingly, blacks still blindly vote democrat because, just like me at one time, I was lead to believe that democrats are for the poor people and republicans for the rich. Blacks are not the only ones that are being deceived.
On the subject of Trinitarians -VS- Unitarians...
Scrpiture seems to answer this controversy clearly, lets investigate;
Trinitarians believe that God is one being in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Unitarians reject the doctrine of the Trinity, believing that God the Father is one singular being, AND THAT JESUS CHRIST is a distinct being, His Son, but IS NOT DIVINE. These definitions come from researching the terms, not from what I consider them to be. So let's look into scripture on this;
Even though the word "God" seems to be singular, there are many scriptures that reveal God as plural. We see in GENESIS 1:26 (KJV) "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image", GENESIS 3:22 (KJV) " And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil".
Movin on, in MATTHEW 3:16-17 (KJV) when Jesus was baptized, we see the presence of God the Father, speaking about His Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit descending from Heaven and upon Jesus. This scripture itself defines and identifies who the "US" and "OUR" are in GENESIS 1:26 (KJV) and GENESIS 3:22 (KJV) regarding the plural use of God.
I must conclude with these two scriptures; 1 JOHN 5:7 (KJV) "For there are THREE that bear record in Heaven, the FATHER, the Word (JESUS) , and the HOLY SPIRIT: and THESE THREE ARE ONE", and JOHN 10:30 (KJV) where Jesus states "I and My Father are One". Again, we see scriptures that show and prove that God can be seen as three in one, or one as three. This could be seen as "legalism" to a certain degree.
NOW, TO THE ARGUMENT OF TRINITARIANS -VS- UNITARIANS...
"God" is the ancient Hebrew word "ELOHIM". Grammatically, it is a plural word used as if it were singular. The verbs and pronouns used with "ELOHIM" should be in the plural, but when ELOHIM" refers to the LORD God the verbs and pronouns are in the singular.
I can see a belief of God alone stemming from the Old Testament, before Jesus and the Holy Spirit were clearly revealed, even though they are indirectly mentioned in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit being revealed in GENESIS 1:2 (KJV) "as the Spirit of God" and Jesus being mentioned in GENESIS 3:15 (KJV) as "the seed of the woman" which was a prophecy of Jesus' virgin birth by Mary to come... and again GENESIS 1:26 (KJV) and GENESIS 3:22 (KJV) as God in the plual form.
However, based on these scriptures, it is apparent that the Trinitarian belief is the Biblical truth. The concerning part here is that Unitarians, (according to the definition of their belief above) deny Christ Jesus as being divine, which I see as a DANGEROUS BELIEF. This is to DENY OUR LORD AND SAVIOR AS DIVINE.
It sounds like to me that Unitarians have allowed man's logic to decieve their way of Spiritual thinking, regardless of the fact that scripture PLAINLY confirms a trinity.
Regards,
Pastor Tommy
Scrpiture seems to answer this controversy clearly, lets investigate;
Trinitarians believe that God is one being in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Unitarians reject the doctrine of the Trinity, believing that God the Father is one singular being, AND THAT JESUS CHRIST is a distinct being, His Son, but IS NOT DIVINE. These definitions come from researching the terms, not from what I consider them to be. So let's look into scripture on this;
Even though the word "God" seems to be singular, there are many scriptures that reveal God as plural. We see in GENESIS 1:26 (KJV) "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image", GENESIS 3:22 (KJV) " And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, to know good and evil".
Movin on, in MATTHEW 3:16-17 (KJV) when Jesus was baptized, we see the presence of God the Father, speaking about His Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit descending from Heaven and upon Jesus. This scripture itself defines and identifies who the "US" and "OUR" are in GENESIS 1:26 (KJV) and GENESIS 3:22 (KJV) regarding the plural use of God.
I must conclude with these two scriptures; 1 JOHN 5:7 (KJV) "For there are THREE that bear record in Heaven, the FATHER, the Word (JESUS) , and the HOLY SPIRIT: and THESE THREE ARE ONE", and JOHN 10:30 (KJV) where Jesus states "I and My Father are One". Again, we see scriptures that show and prove that God can be seen as three in one, or one as three. This could be seen as "legalism" to a certain degree.
NOW, TO THE ARGUMENT OF TRINITARIANS -VS- UNITARIANS...
"God" is the ancient Hebrew word "ELOHIM". Grammatically, it is a plural word used as if it were singular. The verbs and pronouns used with "ELOHIM" should be in the plural, but when ELOHIM" refers to the LORD God the verbs and pronouns are in the singular.
I can see a belief of God alone stemming from the Old Testament, before Jesus and the Holy Spirit were clearly revealed, even though they are indirectly mentioned in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit being revealed in GENESIS 1:2 (KJV) "as the Spirit of God" and Jesus being mentioned in GENESIS 3:15 (KJV) as "the seed of the woman" which was a prophecy of Jesus' virgin birth by Mary to come... and again GENESIS 1:26 (KJV) and GENESIS 3:22 (KJV) as God in the plual form.
However, based on these scriptures, it is apparent that the Trinitarian belief is the Biblical truth. The concerning part here is that Unitarians, (according to the definition of their belief above) deny Christ Jesus as being divine, which I see as a DANGEROUS BELIEF. This is to DENY OUR LORD AND SAVIOR AS DIVINE.
It sounds like to me that Unitarians have allowed man's logic to decieve their way of Spiritual thinking, regardless of the fact that scripture PLAINLY confirms a trinity.
Regards,
Pastor Tommy
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