Plurality of Shepherds

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ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#1
Nowhere in the New Testament is the idea of a "lead pastor" or "head shepherd" taught. This a human idea that has been introduced into the body of Christ. God, in His wisdom, called for a plurality of shepherds in each congregation. The reason for this seems obvious to me: It prevents any one person from being held up and idolized above others; and it prevents charismatic leaders from seizing control and forming an authoritarian cult.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#2
Is every single congregation out there with a "head pastor" in charge and calling the shots deceiving and being deceived? I shudder to think about it.
 
R

RichMan

Guest
#3
There are qualifications in Scripture for the office of Pastor/Bishop.
Not everyone is qualified.
As for lead Pastor, there is a need for one to lead, but not to rule.
Leading and ruling are very different.
I am Baptist. I understand that in some Baptist churches the lead pastor has a lot of authority, but not in most.
Each congregation is self governing by vote of members.
The pastor and all who hold an position do so at the will of the congregation.
The congregation puts them in the office and can also remove them.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,596
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#4
There are qualifications in Scripture for the office of Pastor/Bishop.
Not everyone is qualified.
As for lead Pastor, there is a need for one to lead, but not to rule.
Leading and ruling are very different.
I am Baptist. I understand that in some Baptist churches the lead pastor has a lot of authority, but not in most.
Each congregation is self governing by vote of members.
The pastor and all who hold an position do so at the will of the congregation.
The congregation puts them in the office and can also remove them.
I think it's a bad idea for one pastor to even be perceived as the "leader." In the first place it isn't a "need" and it isn't scriptural. Even if there isn't a head pastor but one shepherd does all the preaching, people tend to start looking to him alone for guidance.

The scriptural way is a plurality of shepherds. One pastor doesn't have to preach all the time but they should take turns. If there aren't enough qualified teaching pastors then one of the other pastors or teachers could read scripture and teach; or lead a discussion.

The body of Christ has gotten so far off track they can't even think in terms of a congregation without a head pastor. And of course head pastors aren't going to do anything to discourage it.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#5
Elders are charged with the care of the local believers. All elders are shepherds but not all shepherds are elders. Furthermore, shepherds are shepherds of people, never of ministries or offices (like “pastor of elder care”, “pastor of children’s programs”, etc.)

Perhaps most importantly, in an area without biblical church governance, elders are identified and raised up by apostles received in that area.

Oh, and matters of church governance are never voted on by the people. Such a thing is not found in scripture. The casting of lots was like the rolling of dice not like a democratic vote.
 
R

RichMan

Guest
#6
Elders are charged with the care of the local believers. All elders are shepherds but not all shepherds are elders. Furthermore, shepherds are shepherds of people, never of ministries or offices (like “pastor of elder care”, “pastor of children’s programs”, etc.)

Perhaps most importantly, in an area without biblical church governance, elders are identified and raised up by apostles received in that area.

Oh, and matters of church governance are never voted on by the people. Such a thing is not found in scripture. The casting of lots was like the rolling of dice not like a democratic vote.
So who decides who is qualified to serve as elder or on other matters if not the congregation?
We no longer have apostles.
Are we just to accept someone's word that "God choose me"?
What about a group/congregation where no one is willing to step up and be a shepherd?
What about a congregation of new converts who have little or no knowledge or understanding?
Different congregations often have different needs.
 
R

RichMan

Guest
#7
I think it's a bad idea for one pastor to even be perceived as the "leader." In the first place it isn't a "need" and it isn't scriptural. Even if there isn't a head pastor but one shepherd does all the preaching, people tend to start looking to him alone for guidance.

The scriptural way is a plurality of shepherds. One pastor doesn't have to preach all the time but they should take turns. If there aren't enough qualified teaching pastors then one of the other pastors or teachers could read scripture and teach; or lead a discussion.

The body of Christ has gotten so far off track they can't even think in terms of a congregation without a head pastor. And of course head pastors aren't going to do anything to discourage it.
What you are suggesting is what often leads to confusion and division as everyone is allowed to give their own "interpretation" of Scripture.
No one should be allowed to teach or "lead a discussion", that has not proven they understand what Scripture clearly states.
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#8
So who decides who is qualified to serve as elder or on other matters if not the congregation?
We no longer have apostles.
Are we just to accept someone's word that "God choose me"?
What about a group/congregation where no one is willing to step up and be a shepherd?
What about a congregation of new converts who have little or no knowledge or understanding?
Different congregations often have different needs.
These issues are impossible within the context of proper church governance.
The Lord chose the 12 Apostles of the Lamb. After that, the Holy Spirit showed prophets and teachers other apostles. They commissioned and released them by the laying on of hands (an elementary doctrine). After that, those apostles sent other apostles. The apostles today, like those in the epistles, find the elders and raise them up, commissioning them by the laying on of hands in sight of the believers. This is all clearly seen in scripture.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#9
These issues are impossible within the context of proper church governance.
The Lord chose the 12 Apostles of the Lamb. After that, the Holy Spirit showed prophets and teachers other apostles. They commissioned and released them by the laying on of hands (an elementary doctrine). After that, those apostles sent other apostles. The apostles today, like those in the epistles, find the elders and raise them up, commissioning them by the laying on of hands in sight of the believers. This is all clearly seen in scripture.
Do you have any examples other than Paul and Silas? Would these apostles need to have seen Christ? Do you have any other scripture along these lines?
 

Aaron56

Well-known member
Jul 12, 2021
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#10
Do you have any examples other than Paul and Silas? Would these apostles need to have seen Christ? Do you have any other scripture along these lines?
Barnabas, Timothy, Titus, Judas.

Prophets and teachers sent Barnabas. Paul sent Timothy and Titus. The 12 sent Silas and Judas.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,524
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#11
So who decides who is qualified to serve as elder or on other matters if not the congregation? We no longer have apostles.
If there are genuine elders (plural) in any assembly of Christians, then they would have the discernment to see who meets the qualification of an elder, and urge him to take that responsibility. Is this in fact the case? Rather doubtful. The NT speaks of "the presbytery" and that it was the presbytery which recognized the calling of Timothy. "The presbytery" means a group of elders within a local church.
 

Artios1

Born again to serve
Dec 11, 2020
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#12
There are many areas of the New Testament that talk about leadership within the Church (called of God). And there are several areas that give admonition to that leadership.

Both books of Timbo are written to leadership within the church and give counsel to that leadership. Structure dictates you do need to have someone who walking with God as a director with counsel of others who are walking with God to filter any unilateral decisions…. w/o structure you cultivate chaos.



One of the 5 crowns we can receive are in that category of leadership.

1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

This applies to anyone in the body of Christ who is walking, leading and taking the oversight of the believers in the body of Christ…..not limited to apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, & teachers. Who, with gift ministries are serving Gods people on a horizontal level….it can be anyone who is shepherding the flock.
 
R

RichMan

Guest
#13
These issues are impossible within the context of proper church governance.
The Lord chose the 12 Apostles of the Lamb. After that, the Holy Spirit showed prophets and teachers other apostles. They commissioned and released them by the laying on of hands (an elementary doctrine). After that, those apostles sent other apostles. The apostles today, like those in the epistles, find the elders and raise them up, commissioning them by the laying on of hands in sight of the believers. This is all clearly seen in scripture.
Is this the way it works in the church you are a part of?
 
R

RichMan

Guest
#14
Is every single congregation out there with a "head pastor" in charge and calling the shots deceiving and being deceived? I shudder to think about it.
How does the church you attend conduct service?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
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#15
Nowhere in the New Testament is the idea of a "lead pastor" or "head shepherd" taught. This a human idea that has been introduced into the body of Christ. God, in His wisdom, called for a plurality of shepherds in each congregation. The reason for this seems obvious to me: It prevents any one person from being held up and idolized above others, and it prevents charismatic leaders from seizing control and forming an authoritarian cult.
I see the dangers in what you point out but I do believe the Bible states that in church organization there should be an Overseer, Deacons, and Elders. These are the Biblical terms.

Before even examining church history it should be examined what responsibility these titles had.

Timothy was put in charge of a church and James was as well.

Scripture gives us the perfect balance of power as they also demand the congregation to judge the teachers. They are to be held accountable and if they go astray to either be removed or separated from.

This is probably why many churches have a council of Elders chosen by those in the congregation. The elders can be removed by the vote of the congregants while the pastor can be hired or fired by the vote of the elders and congregants together.

You will not find this democratic system in scripture but it at least separates the power.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,596
3,179
113
#16
There are many areas of the New Testament that talk about leadership within the Church (called of God). And there are several areas that give admonition to that leadership.

Both books of Timbo are written to leadership within the church and give counsel to that leadership. Structure dictates you do need to have someone who walking with God as a director with counsel of others who are walking with God to filter any unilateral decisions…. w/o structure you cultivate chaos.



One of the 5 crowns we can receive are in that category of leadership.

1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

This applies to anyone in the body of Christ who is walking, leading and taking the oversight of the believers in the body of Christ…..not limited to apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, & teachers. Who, with gift ministries are serving Gods people on a horizontal level….it can be anyone who is shepherding the flock.
Nothing in the New Testament teaches a one-leader (director) model.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
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#17
There are qualifications in Scripture for the office of Pastor/Bishop.
Not everyone is qualified.
How many Pastor/Teachers do you know who can fulfil James 5v13-18, yet this is one of the basic criteria for a Pastor/Teacher?

If you do a bit of a study you will find that a Pastor/Teacher, Elder and Overseer refers to the same ministry in the Scriptures!

If a person does NOT fulfil the criteria laid down in the Scriptures for such a ministry, they are imposters and charlatans and have no ministry gift from the Lord Jesus! Eph 4v11-16.

And yet the Churches (denominational and non-denominational) are filled with such!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#18
I see the dangers in what you point out but I do believe the Bible states that in church organization there should be an Overseer, Deacons, and Elders. These are the Biblical terms.
Episkopos (bishop or overseer) and presbuteros (elder) are both terms applied to the same office. So there are only two offices found in the NT - elders (who are also pastors and bishops) and deacons (who handle the temporal affairs of the church). But shortly after the apostles passed on the office of bishop was created to oversee the elders, and thus the episcopacy was created (and thus the Episcopalian church). But the Bible speaks of a "presbytery" which is a council of elders within a local church. Even Presbyterian churches departed from this and the denominations created a presbytery above that within the church (which is not scriptural, just as denominations are not). But the majority of evangelical and fundamental churches have departed from the NT pattern.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,784
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#19
Episkopos (bishop or overseer) and presbuteros (elder) are both terms applied to the same office. So there are only two offices found in the NT - elders (who are also pastors and bishops) and deacons (who handle the temporal affairs of the church). But shortly after the apostles passed on the office of bishop was created to oversee the elders, and thus the episcopacy was created (and thus the Episcopalian church). But the Bible speaks of a "presbytery" which is a council of elders within a local church. Even Presbyterian churches departed from this and the denominations created a presbytery above that within the church (which is not scriptural, just as denominations are not). But the majority of evangelical and fundamental churches have departed from the NT pattern.
Episkopos
(bishop or overseer) and presbuteros (elder) are both terms applied to the same office.
Do you have an example of this? I'm currently not aware of any. My main text being,

1 Timothy 3
English Standard Version


3 The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Therefore an overseer[a] must be above reproach, the husband of one wife,[b] sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5 for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.


This is an office position. The word he is gendered and singular.

There are some minor differences for the office of deacon.

1 Timothy 3:8-11
English Standard Version


8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued,[a] not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11 Their wives likewise[b] must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things.

Deacons and their seem to indicate more than one. Their wives seem to indicate a gender position. I say seem because there is also evidence of a female Deaconess listed by Paul as well.

Their is no evidence for a female overseer so I'm quite confident that position is only male.

Anyways maybe you can provide insight on Elder and Overseer being the same. Now I agree that an elder may assume the role of Overseer. But at this point I do not see them as the same.


So there are only two offices found in the NT - elders (who are also pastors and bishops) and deacons (who handle the temporal affairs of the church). But shortly after the apostles passed on the office of bishop was created to oversee the elders, and thus the episcopacy was created (and thus the Episcopalian church). But the Bible speaks of a "presbytery" which is a council of elders within a local church. Even Presbyterian churches departed from this and the denominations created a presbytery above that within the church (which is not scriptural, just as denominations are not). But the majority of evangelical and fundamental churches have departed from the NT pattern.
I see three words with different descriptions. An Overseer, Deacon, Elder.
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
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#20
Do you have an example of this?
Acts 20
17From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church.
18When they came to him, he said, “You know how I lived the whole time I was with you, from the first day I arrived in the province of Asia.....
28Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.