Poll about how you see predestination/freewill
- Thread starter Hakawaka
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You said: It does not state raise up to eternal life, nor have you specified what Jesus meant when He stated last day. - this in response to John 6:44. The only reason one would be questioning the obvious meaning of this verse, is because one does not want it to mean what it says. The best way to determine what the writer means by the use of "raise up" and "last day", is to look and see how these are used throughout the book of John. Here are the verses:
John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Bible defining the Bible. In these three verses, there can be no doubt that "raise up" is referring to the resurrection and "last day" is the resurrection day. Verse 40 makes it clear that this is to eternal life. However, if there is still any doubt, then look at this conversation, please:
John 11:23-26 Jesus says unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. (24) Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live; (26) and whosoever living and believing on me shall never die. Do you believe this?
So based on the context of John 6:39 and 40, the proper understanding of John 6:44, is the resurrection at the last day. This is to eternal life.
You then said: Why did Jesus say to all His disciples in John 15:16, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit” when Judas was still one of that group? Judas has been chosen, ordained, to bring forth fruit, yet he doesn’t. Your question seems to pertain to Judas. If he was chosen and appointed to bring forth fruit, what went wrong? In the case of Judas - nothing went wrong. Judas carried out the role he was chosen and called to do. Scripture says the following about Judas:
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 Now he spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me. (Here our Lord is revealing that Judas was chosen to fulfill OT prophecy. In particular Psalm 41:9)
Judas had a particular role to fulfill. If he did not, then the prophecies from the Old Testament would not have come to pass and God would be a liar. Most would never accuse God of being a liar. We know who the father of all lies is. Just because Judas hung out with Jesus and the other disciples, does not mean that he was saved. There was never evidence that Judas believed Jesus to be God.
Finally, you stated the following: If “many are called but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14), then why is the number chosen less than the number called. Why would God call a large number of people to the wedding feast, yet only choose some of them?
The reason why "many" can be CALLED but "few" are CHOSEN can be explained in this way: First - let me say that this verse, Matthew 22:14, is the closing sentence of a "parable" that our Lord was telling. Believers should be careful about using a parable for doctrinal understanding. Nevertheless, the reason why the numbers are not the same is because "called" and "chosen are not the same thing. In the case of verse 14, called is referring to the General call of the Gospel message. Many may hear this and respond for a short season but without Regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there is no staying power. Their faith was never genuine. However, the ones chosen to adoption as sons, are Regenerated at the appropriate time and then Effectually called by the Gospel message. One who is effectually called, will incur the full effect of the Gospel and it's lasting impact on their lives. Also, in proper Biblical sequence, called never proceeds chosen, when referring to genuine salvation. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Bible defining the Bible. In these three verses, there can be no doubt that "raise up" is referring to the resurrection and "last day" is the resurrection day. Verse 40 makes it clear that this is to eternal life. However, if there is still any doubt, then look at this conversation, please:
John 11:23-26 Jesus says unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. (24) Martha said unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (25) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live; (26) and whosoever living and believing on me shall never die. Do you believe this?
So based on the context of John 6:39 and 40, the proper understanding of John 6:44, is the resurrection at the last day. This is to eternal life.
You then said: Why did Jesus say to all His disciples in John 15:16, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit” when Judas was still one of that group? Judas has been chosen, ordained, to bring forth fruit, yet he doesn’t. Your question seems to pertain to Judas. If he was chosen and appointed to bring forth fruit, what went wrong? In the case of Judas - nothing went wrong. Judas carried out the role he was chosen and called to do. Scripture says the following about Judas:
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John 6:71 Now he spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me. (Here our Lord is revealing that Judas was chosen to fulfill OT prophecy. In particular Psalm 41:9)
Judas had a particular role to fulfill. If he did not, then the prophecies from the Old Testament would not have come to pass and God would be a liar. Most would never accuse God of being a liar. We know who the father of all lies is. Just because Judas hung out with Jesus and the other disciples, does not mean that he was saved. There was never evidence that Judas believed Jesus to be God.
Finally, you stated the following: If “many are called but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14), then why is the number chosen less than the number called. Why would God call a large number of people to the wedding feast, yet only choose some of them?
The reason why "many" can be CALLED but "few" are CHOSEN can be explained in this way: First - let me say that this verse, Matthew 22:14, is the closing sentence of a "parable" that our Lord was telling. Believers should be careful about using a parable for doctrinal understanding. Nevertheless, the reason why the numbers are not the same is because "called" and "chosen are not the same thing. In the case of verse 14, called is referring to the General call of the Gospel message. Many may hear this and respond for a short season but without Regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, there is no staying power. Their faith was never genuine. However, the ones chosen to adoption as sons, are Regenerated at the appropriate time and then Effectually called by the Gospel message. One who is effectually called, will incur the full effect of the Gospel and it's lasting impact on their lives. Also, in proper Biblical sequence, called never proceeds chosen, when referring to genuine salvation. Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.