poll: sovereign grace and free will

[phil36]

Hi Scott,

I think you should do a bit more research Scott, you are seriously ill informed bordering ignorant of the facts

4. Calvinist like John Calvin, but following Westminster Confession of

Faith, which includes human free will (some Calvinists deny free will;

other Calvinists accept free will)

 

[Miguel7]

Choice 1 God's Grace for mankind to make a freewill choice.

 

[ChirstNotCalvin]

Phill36, I am chasing you around this web site as you are very active so apologies if this is a repeat.

You say

"There is a false charge amongst Arminians that reformed theology does not believe man has choices. We believe men do have choices but that choice is always tied to your nature. So you are dead in your sin spiritually dead. How can you see? Spiritually you cannot see."

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to support arminianism but I do not understand what you mean. You sound totally hypocritical. Men have choices but they are blind so they can only make the wrong choice ? Surely that is not a choice at all. Its like having rolling a dice that has the same number on all six sides.

I am not taking a pop at you but I guess I am in the majority of all humans who don't get this. I know Calvin's Institutes Book 2 Chapter 1 states "Babies are born OBNOXIOUS and ODIOUS in the site of God" and Calvin goes on to explain that if a baby dies not having been baptized it is doomed to eternal hell. Is that what you believe ?

Surely God created humans and it was good. Off the top of my head I can think of one verse in the NT where it say men are dead in transgressions however does that mean they are totally unable as well ? Several texts state that there is enough evidence of God glory for any human to comprehend hence they are without excuse. Also they "go' there own way not forced down that road as there is no option open to them.

I have not quoted verse as I do not want to get into a verse swapping contest. Please can you explain your statement and don't mention arminianism.

Maybe most of the world are reprobates doomed to destruction as most people on the web site do not understand your statement/ view. At the very least it seems to me a fair amount of the Bible has to be stripped out.

Honestly, do not get me wrong. I would love to understand your thinking.

With utmost sincerity.

 

[Zilla64007]

Calvinism, Zilla64007, Is just a form of Augustinianism, and the theology of Augustine of Hippo is the venom (poison) that has infected the body and the soul of Western Christendom. What, then, are we to make of the Protestant Reformation, with its Augustinian base? People will have differing opinions on this. See the book by James R. Payton, Jr., "Getting the Reformation Wrong: Correcting Some Misunderstandings", Copyright 2010, IVP Academic, an imprint of InterVarsity Press, Downers Grove, IL. The back jacket cover of this book states:
"Most students of history know that Martin Luther nailed his ninety-five theses to the Wittenberg Church door and that John Calvin penned the Institutes of the Christian Religion. However, many of us misunderstand how the Reformation, which was quite messy, unfolded.
"Using the most up-to-date Reformation scholarship, the author exposes, challenges and corrects some common misrepresentations of the Reformation, including:
* The medieval Catholic Church was monolithic and moribund.
* The Renaissance was strictly a human-centered movement.
* The Reformation progressed rapidly and smoothly.
*The Reformers were in agreement about most theological issues.
*Sola Scriptura means Scripture is our only religious authority.
*Protestant scholasticism was a return to doctrinal faithfulness.
*The Reformation was a uniform success."

Take care.
God bless us all always everywhere and with everyone who believes the same Nicene Creed without the Filioque! Amen. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

preaching to the choir, Scotth1960

Augustine is where we get not only the basic Calvinism, but also mainline Catholicism

 

[ChirstNotCalvin]

To Zilla and Scott in particular, also other contributers

You posts sound informed and interest to me. Not "seriously ill informed bordering ignorant of the facts " s brother phill36 states. I have a Phd, not wanting to boast but just to show I not stupid either.

I have been Chasing brother phil36 around this web site tonight and have found he is very illusive. I think he has been raptured.

Seriously, Can anyone explain this to me - "We are dead in our sins but still responsible" - HOW ?

Please anyone, help me out

Yours in Jesus Christ

 

[ChirstNotCalvin]

"because Adam and Eve were not in possession of a sinful nature as we"

Yet Adam and Eve sinned ! how so if they did not have a sinful nature. ?

This is why calvanists exasperate me. Please explain yourselves - not just publish a sound byte and then go offline.

 

[Lad]

I believe in number one. I believe it is biblical, especially the fact that we can lose our salvation.

 

[phil36]

"because Adam and Eve were not in possession of a sinful nature as we"

Yet Adam and Eve sinned ! how so if they did not have a sinful nature. ?

This is why calvanists exasperate me. Please explain yourselves - not just publish a sound byte and then go offline.

They never had a sin nature before they sinned. so I will put the question back to you and to those who say the same type of thing.

Are we the same in nature as Adam and Eve before the Fall. (biblically, not human reasoning)

 

[superdave5221]

I find irt very strange how people can say they had the same choice as Adam and Eve, that is not even biblical.

Adam and eve truly reflected God's image undistorted, Where you born that way.

Another point, why do people think that reformed theolgy denies that people have a will? you are totally free to do as you please within your nature.

Can you honestly tell me that we are like Adam and Eve before the fal. If you think about it and honest with yourself you will see that God tells us we are not. Read |Romans 1:18 - 3:21!

Foreknowledge of choice, as the Arminian would say is not biblical. its like God looks down a time tunnel and see's who will choose him, thats not biblical. theres a big problem with the arminian theory, what if that person does not choose God? and seondly do you see how this arminian/semi pelagian view shifts salvation to man, we are the kings of our lives we will decide!!!!! thats not biblical either. God is King!


Anyhow can someone show me in scrioptre where it says you have a ""Free Will"" outside of your very nature your being? And just before you answer that question, how do you get spiritual eyes to see and have faith in what i unseen?

Hey Phil,

Gotta disagree with you here brother. You do a lot of talking about our human nature. Adam and Eve did indeed have sinful natures before the fall. They had sinful natures BECAUSE they were given free will. It is free will that determines our nature! What is sin? Sin is disobeying God's will or law. Without free will, we do not have the ability to disobey God. Why would God will us to disobey Him?

If we do not have free will, we cannot be held responsible for choices that we make, for they are not free!

Let me ask you. Can God force us to love Him? Of course He can! Then why doesn't everyone love Him?

Does not the fact that some will love Him, and some won't indicate that God has willingly self limited Himself in order that we may come to love Him of our own free will?

How do Calvinists explain sin and suffering in the world? Sin and suffering is the result of man's free will choices, (and Satan's), which have unleashed evil in the world. Was Satan not created by God? Does he not have free will to do evil? Is God weak in allowing Satan to oppose Him? NO! God allows Satan to do evil because he has willed that we have the choice to choose between God and Satan, and between God's kingdom and the world.

Did not Christ die for ALL people? Do you wish to limit the atonement? If some are predestined from before time to reject the gospel, then Christ did not die for all, but for a limited few. That is certainly unbiblical!

Because God has given us free will individually does not limit God collectively in achieving his purposes. He works in providential ways, as well as miraculously at times, to achieve His purpose for all of mankind. Our free will is tempered by His natural laws, and we are influenced by Holy Spirit in our abilities to accept the gospel and to be changed in nature as we mature as Christians. Romans 8:7-8 is very often misintepreted. The content here is clearly our ability towards the law, NOT our ability to accept the gospel and Jesus Christ as our Savior.

God's manipulation of natural laws, providential actions, His response to prayer, and His influence through Holy Spirit does not impose on our abilities to choose. This is clearly demonstrated in Amos 4:6-11.

That God cannot react to anything outside of Himself, and still be sovereign is an unwarranted presupposition. Virtually every major action of God after Genesis 3:1 is a response to human sin. These include the Abrahamic covenant, establishment of Israel, incarnation of Christ, Jesus' mission on earth, His ressurrection, the establishment of the church, everything is God's reaction to man's sin. This does not mean that God is not in control. His ultimate purposes will be realized.

Esther 4: 13 Then Mordecai told them to reply to Esther, "Do not imagine that you in the king's palace can escape any more than all the Jews. 14 "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this ?"

Mordecai realized that God's plans would not go unrealized. However, Esther had the individual free will to refuse the opportunity, and yet God would achieve His purposes.

Do not limit God to think that He cannot self limit Himself to give us free will, and yet still achieve His purposes!

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Phil, true Arminians do not believe that we "choose God". We believe that God desires all to be saved thus he reaches out to all in His own unique way according to the heart of the individual. We believe that God foreknew each and every individual from the womb and their capacity for selfishness.Those who are the elect are those who willfully submit to the will of God for our lives thus rejecting our own sense of self through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

For the true Arminian, the word synergy means willfull submition.