Post-death/pre-resurrection

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Jan 14, 2021
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#62
It's a JW belief (at least those I've spoken to) that people who die pass out of existence immediately.
Conversely The Bible describes the soul going on after a body dies.


Examples from scipture would be verses like Rev 6 & Isaiah 14.

In Rev 6:9-10 John sees the disembodied souls of Christian martyrs. Disembodied as in- they have been slain. They exist
and are conscious enough to cry out to God for vengeance. Those are obvioulsy saved individuals- being in the throne room
of heaven.


Isaiah 14:9-10 has a glimpse into the the grave (sheol) where some of those who where rulers on earth speak.
I agree the claim that "100% of dead people are unconscious" is unbiblical. But what is your perspective on the claim that "some dead people are unconscious"?

The "some are" claim is the one I'm having trouble seeing how to rule out.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
9,265
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#63
I agree the claim that "100% of dead people are unconscious" is unbiblical. But what is your perspective on the claim that "some dead people are unconscious"?

The "some are" claim is the one I'm having trouble seeing how to rule out.

I can't say I know for a fact that no one has ever been or ever will be in an unconscious state of the soul.
I would have be God to know that with absolute certainty. God is sovereign.

I will say that speculating seems like a waste of time (to me) since we have been given a picture of the nature of
creation in the Biblical text & God doesn't author confusion. I don't think God minds if you ask him about this
because you are curious though.
 

AndrewMorgan

Active member
Jul 10, 2022
375
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#64
To Lucy-Pevensie and others:- Sorry if the strange repeated inputs and mis-directed texts have bothered you. I don't know how it's happened, I've been told I can't transmit until a certain time has elapsed, so maybe I've repressed "Post reply" thinking a text has failed to send. I'm not au fait with technology.
Thanks, everyone for your input. There's a lot of stuff to consider. I'll address the points in due course as I'm able.
First, I'd like to consider the points I've already mentioned.
Where was Lazarus in the few days after he died and before Jesus resurrected him as in the John 11 account? I see nothing to suggest he was brought back from Heaven, Hell or anywhere else. I'm sorry if anyone has addressed this without me seeing it - I've just got back in the library - I'll check my responses more thoroughly later.
I really would like this particular instance addressed, as I believe it's an important incident in this whole issue. There are other, connected incidents with are relevant to the topic, but at the moment, let's address this one.
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
1,383
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#65
I want now to pose a question about Christ Himself. What was His condition post-death and pre-resurrection? Did he go to Hell for those few days, as many believe? Or was He unconscious?

I'd be interested in others' biblically-based opinions.
Hi, Andrew.

Let's begin with the words of Jesus himself.

Matthew chapter 12

[38] Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
[39] But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:
[40] For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

In light of what Jesus said here, we should ask ourselves at least a couple of questions:

1. Was Jonah conscious when he was "in the whale's belly"?

For the correct answer to this question, we read:

Jonah chapter 2

[1] Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
[2] And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
[3] For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
[4] Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
[5] The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
[6] I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
[7] When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
[8] They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
[9] But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
[10] And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

Jonah was obviously CONSCIOUS as he was doing such things as praying, crying, and remembering.

Seeing how Jesus compared his time "in the heart of the earth" to Jonah's time "in the whale's belly", why should we even consider that Jesus wasn't similarly CONSCIOUS for those "three days and three nights"?

2. What part of Jesus spent "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth"?

It most certainly was NOT his body because that was placed in an ABOVE GROUND TOMB.

Scripture most certainly indicates that it was Jesus' soul which spent "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" AND that he was CONSCIOUSLY AWARE of what he was doing during that timeframe.

For example, we read:

Psalm 16

[8] I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
[9] Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
[10] For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
[11] Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

This psalm prophetically foretold of Jesus Christ:

Acts chapter 2

[22] Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
[23] Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
[24] Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
[25] For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
[26] Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
[27] Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
[28] Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
[29] Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
[30] Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
[31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Here, we see two different aspects of Christ's person being described:

1. His soul which was not left in sheol/hades/hell.
2. His flesh or his body which did not see any corruption.

Sheol/Hades/Hell is BELOW THE EARTH or "in the heart of the earth".

Some examples of this truth would be the following:

"Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell (sheol), to the sides of the pit." (Isaiah 14:15 - Parentheses mine)

"And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell (hades)." (Luke 10:15 - Parentheses mine)

Well, when Jesus' soul was in sheol/hades/hell or "in the heart of the earth" for those "three days and three nights", was he conscious or unconscious?

Remember, we've already seen that Jonah, to whom Christ compared himself, was CONSCIOUS, but there's more evidence to consider than just that.

Paul wrote:

Ephesians chapter 4

[8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things)

Prior to his resurrection and ascension back to heaven, Jesus "descended first into the lower parts of the earth". Again, his body was in an ABOVE GROUND TOMB, so we're talking about his soul here.

Elsewhere, Paul wrote:

Romans chapter 10

[6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaks on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
[7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead)

Prior to his resurrection and ascension back to heaven, Christ not only "descended first into the lower parts of the earth" (Eph. 4:9-10), but he "descended into the deep".

The underlying Greek word which is here translated as "deep" is "abyssos"...

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g12/kjv/tr/0-1/

...and it is from this underlying Greek word that we derive our English word "abyss":

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=abyss

This "deep" or "abyss" is precisely the place where the demons begged Jesus not to send them:

Luke chapter 8

[30] And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
[31] And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

Furthermore, this "deep" or "abyss" is "the bottomless pit" that we read about in the book of Revelation (Rev. 9:1-2, 11, 11:7, 17:8, 20:1, 3).

Well, what was Jesus doing in "the deep", or "the abyss", or "the bottomless pit" for those "three days and three nights", and was he CONSCIOUS while doing it?

(Continued in my next post)
 

Live4Him3

Jesus is Lord
May 19, 2022
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#66
(Continued from my previous post)

Peter gave us some insight when he wrote:

I Peter chapter 3

[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
[21] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[22] Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

I Peter chapter 4

[1] Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
[2] That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
[3] For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
[4] Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
[5] Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
[6] For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

I understand that there are multiple differing interpretations of what we just read, but it seems to me that Christ "went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (which means that they would have had to have been CONSCIOUS as well) or that "for this cause was the gospel preached" or proclaimed "to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh" (which indicates that their spirits were separated from their flesh at that time), "but live according to God in the spirit".

Anyhow, just some things for you to hopefully ponder in your own quest for the truth.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,699
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#67
I want now to pose a question about Christ Himself. What was His condition post-death and pre-resurrection? Did he go to Hell for those few days, as many believe? Or was He unconscious?
1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#68
(I guess that was already noted in the previous post.)
 

MarkJA

New member
Sep 2, 2022
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#69
He told the thief on the cross next to Him that he would be with Him in paradise today, so I believe Jesus was in paradise those 3 says.
Unfortunately, in he days this was written there was no punctuation. So, where you put the comma changes the meaning slightly.

I tell you the truth, today, you'll be with me in paradise.
I tell you the truth today, you'll be with me in paradise.

Besides that, Jesus said to Mary Magdelene in John 20:17 - Touch me not for I have not yet ascended unto the Father
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
2,978
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Midwest
#70
I tell you the truth, today, you'll be with me in paradise.
I tell you the truth today, you'll be with me in paradise.
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

I believe, according to the doctrines: "spirit/soul [alive] depart the [dead] body"
at death, and "Paradise (Abraham's bosom) being in the center of the earth
[at that time]," the correct punctuation should be:
Luk_23:43 "And Jesus Said Unto him, Verily I Say Unto​
thee, To day Shalt thou be With Me In Paradise."​
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Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
.

GRACE And Peace...