Post-Trib Model Failure -- Matthew 24:29 "After the tribulation.."

[A-Omega]

Post Trib Failure -- Matthew 24:29 "After The Tribulation..."

[FONT=&quot]I have decided to do a series on the Post-trib Rapture model. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct. [/FONT]


29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is by far and away the most used proof text for the Post-Trib Rapture model. The logic behind its use is basically: "since it says 'after the tribulation..' then the rapture is clearly post-trib" without much more exposition done on the verse. The problem with this is that it ignores the signs that are also given in that verse. We have:

1) The sun being darkened
2) The moon not giving light
3) The stars fall from heaven
4) The powers of the heavens shall be shaken

These are all very important identifiers. Verse 29 is one of the few verses where Jesus gives very specific, detailed signs to know when something is going to take place. So where do we see these signs, ALL taking place at one time?? The Post-Trib model compels its adherents to see this happening presumably at the 7th Trumpet:

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


I am not going to take the time to evaluate this passage as it is clearly NOT containing any of the signs spoken of in Matthew 24:29.

The other common location for the Post-Trib rapture would be at the 7th vial:

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Ok, so once again, we do not see ANY of the 4 signs Jesus specifically stated would happen "after the tribulation." So where are they??

Once again, we can look to the 6th Seal, where the Rapture takes place:

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Here we see all 4 signs. The sun is darkened, the moon does not give its light, the heavens are shaken and the heavenly beings are shaken as well. This is the start of the Day of The Lord, the true end times "Great Tribulation." And all these signs happen at the BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation, not the end. The posty-trib model forces a misinterpretation of this verse, placing all the events incorrectly at the end of the Great Tribulation.



Interestingly enough, we also have an Old Testament confirmation of the correct timing as well:

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


God CLEARLY and unequivocally shakes the heaven and earth in this passage. And we see this fulfilled at the 6th Seal.



21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.



Here we see a reference to the "hosts of the high ones" of Heaven being shaken. These are "powers" of Heaven Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:29. Ephesians 6:12 tells us that "powers" are just another name for Fallen angelic beings. They are going to be shaken up at the 6th Seal.


Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.



Here we see yet another reference to the "host of Heaven" being shaken. These are angelic beings. And we see the same prophetic language of the figs falling from the fig tree.


These passages make it clear that the Jesus was confirming their fulfillment when discussing Matthew 24:29.

So what about the term "tribulation" in verse 29?? Doesn't Jesus reference it? To find the answer, we have to look at Luke 21. Luke 21 fills in several gaps to its parallel passages Mark 13 and Matthew 24:

7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

This is the "tribulation" Jesus is speaking of. He clearly identifies 3 things that will take place before the end times: false christs, wars and rumors of wars and persecution of the saints. All these things take place BEFORE the end of the world Great Tribulation even starts. And again, looking at the seals, this is exactly what we see taking place before the Day of The Lord and the rapture of the 6th Seal. Wars and rumors of wars, false christs and persecution of the saints (5th Seal) all happens before the 6th Seal rapture.

With basic Biblical scrutiny it is impossible to place the signs that Jesus delineates in Matthew 24:29 to any other part of Revelation but the 6th seal. It is abundantly obvious that Jesus is referring to this time. The Post-trib model fails here because it attributes verse 29 to the end of the Great Tribulation (and thus the rapture) when it is clearly not. It is at the 6th Seal. And that is when the Day of The Lord begins and God pours His wrath out on the heathen world. But Jesus leaves a final word of encouragement:

36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Post Trib Failure -- Matthew 24:29 "After The Tribulation..."

[FONT=&quot]I have decided to do a series on the Post-trib Rapture model. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct. [/FONT]


29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is by far and away the most used proof text for the Post-Trib Rapture model. The logic behind its use is basically: "since it says 'after the tribulation..' then the rapture is clearly post-trib" without much more exposition done on the verse. The problem with this is that it ignores the signs that are also given in that verse. We have:

1) The sun being darkened
2) The moon not giving light
3) The stars fall from heaven
4) The powers of the heavens shall be shaken

These are all very important identifiers. Verse 29 is one of the few verses where Jesus gives very specific, detailed signs to know when something is going to take place. So where do we see these signs, ALL taking place at one time?? The Post-Trib model compels its adherents to see this happening presumably at the 7th Trumpet:

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


I am not going to take the time to evaluate this passage as it is clearly NOT containing any of the signs spoken of in Matthew 24:29.

The other common location for the Post-Trib rapture would be at the 7th vial:

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Ok, so once again, we do not see ANY of the 4 signs Jesus specifically stated would happen "after the tribulation." So where are they??

Once again, we can look to the 6th Seal, where the Rapture takes place:

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Here we see all 4 signs. The sun is darkened, the moon does not give its light, the heavens are shaken and the heavenly beings are shaken as well. This is the start of the Day of The Lord, the true end times "Great Tribulation." And all these signs happen at the BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation, not the end. The posty-trib model forces a misinterpretation of this verse, placing all the events incorrectly at the end of the Great Tribulation.



Interestingly enough, we also have an Old Testament confirmation of the correct timing as well:

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


God CLEARLY and unequivocally shakes the heaven and earth in this passage. And we see this fulfilled at the 6th Seal.



21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.



Here we see a reference to the "hosts of the high ones" of Heaven being shaken. These are "powers" of Heaven Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:29. Ephesians 6:12 tells us that "powers" are just another name for Fallen angelic beings. They are going to be shaken up at the 6th Seal.


Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.



Here we see yet another reference to the "host of Heaven" being shaken. These are angelic beings. And we see the same prophetic language of the figs falling from the fig tree.


These passages make it clear that the Jesus was confirming their fulfillment when discussing Matthew 24:29.

So what about the term "tribulation" in verse 29?? Doesn't Jesus reference it? To find the answer, we have to look at Luke 21. Luke 21 fills in several gaps to its parallel passages Mark 13 and Matthew 24:

7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

This is the "tribulation" Jesus is speaking of. He clearly identifies 3 things that will take place before the end times: false christs, wars and rumors of wars and persecution of the saints. All these things take place BEFORE the end of the world Great Tribulation even starts. And again, looking at the seals, this is exactly what we see taking place before the Day of The Lord and the rapture of the 6th Seal. Wars and rumors of wars, false christs and persecution of the saints (5th Seal) all happens before the 6th Seal rapture.

With basic Biblical scrutiny it is impossible to place the signs that Jesus delineates in Matthew 24:29 to any other part of Revelation but the 6th seal. It is abundantly obvious that Jesus is referring to this time. The Post-trib model fails here because it attributes verse 29 to the end of the Great Tribulation (and thus the rapture) when it is clearly not. It is at the 6th Seal. And that is when the Day of The Lord begins and God pours His wrath out on the heathen world. But Jesus leaves a final word of encouragement:

36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The idea that Daniel's 70th week is still in the future is a mistake. It was fulfilled in the first century already. The Messiah was cut off in 30 AD, just to fulfill the 70 week prophecy of Daniel.
It all was finished in the 70 weeks by 34 AD, the end of the great tribulation of those days.
We cannot know how many years in the future will be during the future Antichrist, nor can any man know when this will come. We cannot know, either, the day nor the hour for the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The idea that Daniel's 70th week is still in the future is a mistake. It was fulfilled in the first century already. The Messiah was cut off in 30 AD, just to fulfill the 70 week prophecy of Daniel.
It all was finished in the 70 weeks by 34 AD, the end of the great tribulation of those days.
We cannot know how many years in the future will be during the future Antichrist, nor can any man know when this will come. We cannot know, either, the day nor the hour for the second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Daniels 70th week has not yet been fulfilled.

Messiah was cut of at the end of the 69th That left one more week to follow. Yet many things which daniel was told would happen during that week have yet to be fulfilled.

He spoke of many wars. which would continue until the end of these 'wars and desolations" were determined.

He spoke of someone confirming a 1 week covenant

He spoke of this same person committing the abomination in the middle of this 7 week period.

None of these things have occurred yet.

 

[prophecyman]

To: A-Omega,

Firstly let me commend you on such a fine apologetic approach to prophecy and presenting your argument in a logical and well formatted display of reason, however I find several flaws or misconcepts concerning your theological conception of a failed posr-trib model.

I am sure that you agree that it is vital that nothing is taken out of context in reference to the scriptures, especially those having to do with your proposed theological theory.

That being said, we will need to consider the prophecy of Joel...

Joel 2:31 "The Sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. KJV

Here the scripture is very specific as to the when in the timeline of prophetic events, this correlates with what Jesus said in Matt. 24:29-30 "Immediately after the distress of those days "The sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light; the stars (fallen ones) will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. "At that time the sign (signal) of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. NIV

It also must be understood that the majority of Matt. 24 was specifically having to do with the land of Israel, so it stands to reason that if we are to properly understand the outline of time appointed events, then we must keep a close eye on the day to day developments in Israel.

I especially like how this passage reads in the New living Translation... "The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about--the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place." (Reader, pay attention!) NLT

We clearly understand that the false prophet shall set up an image of the beast in the Temple, and we further understand that the Son of perdition will declare himself God in the temple of God, showing that he is God. So whatever Jesus said concerning these times, he very specifically pointed to the time of Jacobs trouble. he warned his people to flee to the mountains and not turn back... As it was in the days of Lot, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man.

I also want to comment that a undertanding of Lev. 23 will provide the seven keys to the calendar of God for these prophetic events. Of the seven APPOINTED TIMES (feasts) 4 were fulfilled in Jesus, there are yet three to be fulfilled in the future...

1. TRUMPETS
2. Attonement (Redemption)
3. Tabernacles

The redemption is specific to the resurrection of the righteous, when all that be in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of Man, and like in the days of Lot, he shall sent forth his angels and gather his elect (chosen).

I do not like the term 'Rapture' as it causes confusion, but I rather prefer what Jesus very specifically taught verbally, as it is evident by what Martha said in John 11:24 "Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day!

The last day is not the end of the world, but is very specific as to the end of an age, and that is the end of Gentile rule. This is the day of redemption, this is the day (time) of the restoration, when Christ will rule the nations, for the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of the Lord Christ.

This correlates to Daniels prophecy of the rock (JESUS) that was cut out without hands (SPIRIT OF THE FATHER/HOLY SPIRIT) and smote the great image at the feet and it (Nations) fell. Then the rock became a moutain that filled the whole earth... Jesus rules the kingdoms!

I could elaborate on a great deal of other scriptures that point to the specific time period that our God gave us to observe through his signals (appointed times) but at least i provided a general overview of the subject matter. Thank you for your post!

Regards, Prophecyman

 

[A-Omega]

To: A-Omega,

Firstly let me commend you on such a fine apologetic approach to prophecy and presenting your argument in a logical and well formatted display of reason, however I find several flaws or misconcepts concerning your theological conception of a failed posr-trib model.

I am sure that you agree that it is vital that nothing is taken out of context in reference to the scriptures, especially those having to do with your proposed theological theory.

That being said, we will need to consider the prophecy of Joel...

Joel 2:31 "The Sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. KJV

Here the scripture is very specific as to the when in the timeline of prophetic events, this correlates with what Jesus said in Matt. 24:29-30 "Immediately after the distress of those days "The sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light; the stars (fallen ones) will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. "At that time the sign (signal) of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. NIV

Ok, up to here I am in complete agreement.

It also must be understood that the majority of Matt. 24 was specifically having to do with the land of Israel,

I 100% categorically disagree with this statement. There is nothing in Matthew 24 that makes it "Israel-exclusive." Jesus says from the onset "nation shall rise against nation" and "kingdom against kingdom." This language inherently means the scope of what Jesus is discussing is international if not just global.

so it stands to reason that if we are to properly understand the outline of time appointed events, then we must keep a close eye on the day to day developments in Israel.

Again, I disagree. Jesus listed signs to know when these things would begin and none of them relate specifically to Israel. In fact, most of the signs are supernatural and in the sky, meaning again, the whole world will see them. So I don't need to check Israeli news reports. The Bible has all the answers on signs we should be looking for.

I especially like how this passage reads in the New living Translation... "The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about--the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place." (Reader, pay attention!) NLT

We clearly understand that the false prophet shall set up an image of the beast in the Temple, and we further understand that the Son of perdition will declare himself God in the temple of God, showing that he is God. So whatever Jesus said concerning these times, he very specifically pointed to the time of Jacobs trouble. he warned his people to flee to the mountains and not turn back... As it was in the days of Lot, so shall it be in the coming of the Son of Man.

I don't see the relevance of this to my argument in my original post.

I also want to comment that a undertanding of Lev. 23 will provide the seven keys to the calendar of God for these prophetic events. Of the seven APPOINTED TIMES (feasts) 4 were fulfilled in Jesus, there are yet three to be fulfilled in the future...

1. TRUMPETS
2. Attonement (Redemption)
3. Tabernacles

The redemption is specific to the resurrection of the righteous, when all that be in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of Man, and like in the days of Lot, he shall sent forth his angels and gather his elect (chosen).

I do not like the term 'Rapture' as it causes confusion, but I rather prefer what Jesus very specifically taught verbally, as it is evident by what Martha said in John 11:24 "Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day!

The last day is not the end of the world, but is very specific as to the end of an age, and that is the end of Gentile rule. This is the day of redemption, this is the day (time) of the restoration, when Christ will rule the nations, for the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of the Lord Christ.

This correlates to Daniels prophecy of the rock (JESUS) that was cut out without hands (SPIRIT OF THE FATHER/HOLY SPIRIT) and smote the great image at the feet and it (Nations) fell. Then the rock became a moutain that filled the whole earth... Jesus rules the kingdoms!

I could elaborate on a great deal of other scriptures that point to the specific time period that our God gave us to observe through his signals (appointed times) but at least i provided a general overview of the subject matter. Thank you for your post!

Regards, Prophecyman

You're very welcome. I think we have similar principles on parts of Matthew 24 but then greatly diverge. If you are trying to assert that the post-tribulation rapture is correct, I obviously am not in agreement with that. I am also not sure how your explanation deals with the clear supernatural signs given by Jesus to know when the Day of The Lord would begin and why it is not at the end of the Great Tribulation, but rather signal the beginning of it. If you would care to elaborate to my points there i look forward to that. God bless.

 

[A-Omega]

Daniels 70th week has not yet been fulfilled.

Messiah was cut of at the end of the 69th That left one more week to follow. Yet many things which daniel was told would happen during that week have yet to be fulfilled.

He spoke of many wars. which would continue until the end of these 'wars and desolations" were determined.

He spoke of someone confirming a 1 week covenant

He spoke of this same person committing the abomination in the middle of this 7 week period.

None of these things have occurred yet.

>>>>>>>



Amen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Post Trib Failure -- Matthew 24:29 "After The Tribulation..."

[FONT=&quot]I have decided to do a series on the Post-trib Rapture model. I believe that despite its popularity, it is a very flawed model when put under Biblical scrutiny. Instead of making one mega-post, I decided to make threads focusing on key salient issues that I think show why the model cannot be correct. [/FONT]


29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is by far and away the most used proof text for the Post-Trib Rapture model. The logic behind its use is basically: "since it says 'after the tribulation..' then the rapture is clearly post-trib" without much more exposition done on the verse. The problem with this is that it ignores the signs that are also given in that verse. We have:

1) The sun being darkened
2) The moon not giving light
3) The stars fall from heaven
4) The powers of the heavens shall be shaken

These are all very important identifiers. Verse 29 is one of the few verses where Jesus gives very specific, detailed signs to know when something is going to take place. So where do we see these signs, ALL taking place at one time?? The Post-Trib model compels its adherents to see this happening presumably at the 7th Trumpet:

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


I am not going to take the time to evaluate this passage as it is clearly NOT containing any of the signs spoken of in Matthew 24:29.

The other common location for the Post-Trib rapture would be at the 7th vial:

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Ok, so once again, we do not see ANY of the 4 signs Jesus specifically stated would happen "after the tribulation." So where are they??

Once again, we can look to the 6th Seal, where the Rapture takes place:

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Here we see all 4 signs. The sun is darkened, the moon does not give its light, the heavens are shaken and the heavenly beings are shaken as well. This is the start of the Day of The Lord, the true end times "Great Tribulation." And all these signs happen at the BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation, not the end. The posty-trib model forces a misinterpretation of this verse, placing all the events incorrectly at the end of the Great Tribulation.



Interestingly enough, we also have an Old Testament confirmation of the correct timing as well:

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


God CLEARLY and unequivocally shakes the heaven and earth in this passage. And we see this fulfilled at the 6th Seal.



21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.



Here we see a reference to the "hosts of the high ones" of Heaven being shaken. These are "powers" of Heaven Jesus mentions in Matthew 24:29. Ephesians 6:12 tells us that "powers" are just another name for Fallen angelic beings. They are going to be shaken up at the 6th Seal.


Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.



Here we see yet another reference to the "host of Heaven" being shaken. These are angelic beings. And we see the same prophetic language of the figs falling from the fig tree.


These passages make it clear that the Jesus was confirming their fulfillment when discussing Matthew 24:29.

So what about the term "tribulation" in verse 29?? Doesn't Jesus reference it? To find the answer, we have to look at Luke 21. Luke 21 fills in several gaps to its parallel passages Mark 13 and Matthew 24:

7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? 8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

This is the "tribulation" Jesus is speaking of. He clearly identifies 3 things that will take place before the end times: false christs, wars and rumors of wars and persecution of the saints. All these things take place BEFORE the end of the world Great Tribulation even starts. And again, looking at the seals, this is exactly what we see taking place before the Day of The Lord and the rapture of the 6th Seal. Wars and rumors of wars, false christs and persecution of the saints (5th Seal) all happens before the 6th Seal rapture.

With basic Biblical scrutiny it is impossible to place the signs that Jesus delineates in Matthew 24:29 to any other part of Revelation but the 6th seal. It is abundantly obvious that Jesus is referring to this time. The Post-trib model fails here because it attributes verse 29 to the end of the Great Tribulation (and thus the rapture) when it is clearly not. It is at the 6th Seal. And that is when the Day of The Lord begins and God pours His wrath out on the heathen world. But Jesus leaves a final word of encouragement:

36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

a few thoughts.

1. After great tribulation.. what is the time period of this tribulation.

to see this. we know the abomination occurs in the midpoint of the 7 year covenant. This time period is so sever that according to Christ. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

It is the return of Christ which puts and end to it, we know this by what follows;

His return to earth. Where the battle and defeat of satan's beast and his armies. and Jesus sets up his kingdom. The only living people who will enter this future kingdom will be those "endure to the end"

Thus we can know this period will last for 3 1/2 years. And will be completed when Christ returns to put an end to it.

2. This time period does have a Jewish aspect to it. Jeremiah calls this time the time of "Jacobs trouble" in which God restores both the northern and southern kingdoms of Israel to her land/ God uses the great tribulation to bring his people to repentance and to him.

 

[A-Omega]

a few thoughts.

1. After great tribulation.. what is the time period of this tribulation.

Ah, but see Jesus does NOT say "after great tribulation" in Matthew 24. He says "after the tribulation of those days.." This is a very important distinction. The Great Tribulation starts at the 6th Seal. This is what the verse is clearly stating by the very clear supernatural signs Jesus provides.

to see this. we know the abomination occurs in the midpoint of the 7 year covenant. This time period is so sever that according to Christ. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Well the abomination is indeed at the midpoint of the 7 year covenant but that is NOT the beginning of the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation.

It is the return of Christ which puts and end to it, we know this by what follows;

His return to earth. Where the battle and defeat of satan's beast and his armies. and Jesus sets up his kingdom. The only living people who will enter this future kingdom will be those "endure to the end"

Thus we can know this period will last for 3 1/2 years. And will be completed when Christ returns to put an end to it.

But you cannot ignore verse 29. Jesus gives 4 supernatural signs. And they ONLY match up with the 6th Seal. I just don't grasp how we can discuss timing and not look at this very clear, blatant signpost from The Lord.

2. This time period does have a Jewish aspect to it. Jeremiah calls this time the time of "Jacobs trouble" in which God restores both the northern and southern kingdoms of Israel to her land/ God uses the great tribulation to bring his people to repentance and to him.

Amen! I agree 100% "Jacob's Trouble" is a type and foreshadow of the Great Tribulation/Day of The Lord. And Jacob had trouble twice: when he had to work for Laban to be able to marry Rachel and when he had the famine that forced him to send his sons to Egypt. And BOTH times Jacob's trouble was....7 YEARS. The entire end times is 7 years. And it starts at the 6th seal as Jesus clearly indicates in verse 29. God bless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ah, but see Jesus does NOT say "after great tribulation" in Matthew 24. He says "after the tribulation of those days.." This is a very important distinction. The Great Tribulation starts at the 6th Seal. This is what the verse is clearly stating by the very clear supernatural signs Jesus provides.

After the TRIBULATION of those days

Those days are the days he is talking about/

The tribulation is what occurs on those days.

either way, it can not be the start of the tribulation. because he would not use the words after. Also. No one will see Christ at the rapture. All they will know is people disappear. and God sends a great delusion.

Well the abomination is indeed at the midpoint of the 7 year covenant but that is NOT the beginning of the Day of The Lord/Great Tribulation.

I can't agree. Jesus says when you see this run, hide. because THEN there will be great tribulation. The "day of the lord" and the "great tribulation" are not the same events.

Paul in thess saying the day of the lord comes as a theif would only support a pre trib rapture. because any other theory we can know the day the lord will return. Post trib we would know it will happen 3 1/2 years following the abomination. Mid trib, we would know it would occur 3 1/2 years after a covenant ids made.

But you cannot ignore verse 29. Jesus gives 4 supernatural signs. And they ONLY match up with the 6th Seal. I just don't grasp how we can discuss timing and not look at this very clear, blatant signpost from The Lord.

If you read Isaiah, you will see a few things.

1. nations are gathered together to war.
2. God gathers his armies to also make war
3. The battle is one by God and evil is destroyed.
4. The sun moon and stars HIDE their light (no mention of stars falling to earth, or probably meteors)

if we look at the 6th seal. we see the sun and moon hide their light, and stars falling to earth. And kings of nations hiding from the wrath of God which is to come. Not gathered to battle

Is speaks of the end, the final battle.
the 6th seal is the beginning of great wrath, however. the first 5 seals are nothing to be happy about. these are a part of Gods wrath also. just the beginning. Anyone who thinks the first 5 seals are not major catastrophes and part of Gods wrath does not understand what is really going on.

Amen!

I agree 100% "Jacob's Trouble" is a type and foreshadow of the Great Tribulation/Day of The Lord. And Jacob had trouble twice: when he had to work for Laban to be able to marry Rachel and when he had the famine that forced him to send his sons to Egypt. And BOTH times Jacob's trouble was....7 YEARS. The entire end times is 7 years. And it starts at the 6th seal as Jesus clearly indicates in verse 29. God bless.

Jacob's trouble is not a type, it and the tribulation are the same event, just given two different names. jacob here is not the literal person jacob, but the nation jacob bore, also called Isreal.

3 For behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will bring back from captivity My people Israel and Judah,’ says the LORD. ‘And I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.’”
4 Now these are the words that the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah.
5 “For thus says the LORD: 7 Alas! For that day is great,
So that none is like it;
And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble,
But he shall be saved out of it.
8 ‘ For it shall come to pass in that day,’
Says the LORD of hosts,

‘ That I will break his yoke from your neck,
And will burst your bonds;
Foreigners shall no more enslave them.
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God,
And David their king,
Whom I will raise up for them.
10 ‘ Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the LORD,

‘ Nor be dismayed, O Israel;
For behold, I will save you from afar,
And your seed from the land of their captivity.
Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet,
And no one shall make him afraid.

 

[prophecyman]

Ok, up to here I am in complete agreement.



[/color][/b]I 100% categorically disagree with this statement. There is nothing in Matthew 24 that makes it "Israel-exclusive." Jesus says from the onset "nation shall rise against nation" and "kingdom against kingdom." This language inherently means the scope of what Jesus is discussing is international if not just global.




Again, I disagree. Jesus listed signs to know when these things would begin and none of them relate specifically to Israel. In fact, most of the signs are supernatural and in the sky, meaning again, the whole world will see them. So I don't need to check Israeli news reports. The Bible has all the answers on signs we should be looking for.



I don't see the relevance of this to my argument in my original post.



You're very welcome. I think we have similar principles on parts of Matthew 24 but then greatly diverge. If you are trying to assert that the post-tribulation rapture is correct, I obviously am not in agreement with that. I am also not sure how your explanation deals with the clear supernatural signs given by Jesus to know when the Day of The Lord would begin and why it is not at the end of the Great Tribulation, but rather signal the beginning of it. If you would care to elaborate to my points there i look forward to that. God bless.

First of all, I did not say "Israel exclusively" I said the majority of matt. 24 was addressed to the Jews. Which if the whole text were taken into account then this truth would be thus established.

I know of the wars and rumor of wars, the distress of nations etc. But there was very specific instructions to the Jew only as was categorically outlined. So the emphasis is the Temple and the events surrounding it is the point of interest.

I don't feel like arguing with you, as it is well manifested that you are trying to establish how right you are, this is not a discussion, rather it is an argument! I don't want any part in it.
thanks, but no thanks!

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Daniels 70th week has not yet been fulfilled.

Messiah was cut of at the end of the 69th That left one more week to follow. Yet many things which daniel was told would happen during that week have yet to be fulfilled.

He spoke of many wars. which would continue until the end of these 'wars and desolations" were determined.

He spoke of someone confirming a 1 week covenant

He spoke of this same person committing the abomination in the middle of this 7 week period.

None of these things have occurred yet.

You are appealing to the future. It is impossible to prove something that has not happened yet. You're merely assuming Daniel's 70th week has not been fulfilled. Find evidence from the Church Fathers, please. If they didn't believe it, it isn't true.
As for abomination, that happened in 70 AD when the Romans defiled the Jewish temple. They brought an end to the Jewish animal sacrifices, and set up their pagan idols in the Jewish holy of holies. Just as Daniel predicted.
See: Chilton, David. (1987). The Great Tribulation. Fort Worth, TX: Dominion Press.
Chilton, David. The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation. Dominion Press.
TX.
See: Mauro, Philip. The 70 Weeks and the Great Tribulation.
See: Gentry, Kenneth L., JR. The Beast of Revelation. Institute For Christian Economics.

 

[Crossfire]

You can not discuss Matthew 24 without also discussing Mark 13 and Luke 21. Both Matthew 24 and Mark 13 basically coincide with one another. Luke 21, however, is somewhat different.

I suggest studying all three side by side noting both the similarities and the differences. Once you have done this, take a look at Revelations 6.

 

[A-Omega]

I don't feel like arguing with you, as it is well manifested that you are trying to establish how right you are, this is not a discussion, rather it is an argument! I don't want any part in it.
thanks, but no thanks!

I did not argue with you in the least. You can check any of my posts in any of the threads in this forum. I am not here looking for a fight nor do I try to attack or malign anyone. Just because we disagree on the substance of the Bible does not mean that I am arguing with you. I can talk about sports for hours with my best friends and have complete disagreement and it's just a conversation. It shouldn't be any difference in a Christian forum. Mere disagreement is not an attack when you are respectful to others. If I came off like I was attacking you or offended you, I sincerely apologize. God bless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are appealing to the future. It is impossible to prove something that has not happened yet. You're merely assuming Daniel's 70th week has not been fulfilled. Find evidence from the Church Fathers, please. If they didn't believe it, it isn't true.

Thanks Scott. That is what prophesy is, Future events. Some prophesies have been fulfilled. SOme things have not. All we have to do is look at history to see if those things have been fulfilled or not. For example. We know from history that Jesus was cut off after 69 weeks as prophesy predicted he would. For the rest. we just look for the signs that they have not been fulfilled or not. Ask church fathers?? Which ones? Peter, Paul and James, maybe John? Those are the only church fathers I trust. all others are just words of men. All I need to do is look at scripture and I can prove it. i don't need to look at what men say, I don't follow men.

As for abomination, that happened in 70 AD when the Romans defiled the Jewish temple. They brought an end to the Jewish animal sacrifices, and set up their pagan idols in the Jewish holy of holies. Just as Daniel predicted.

No Scott. they destroyed the temple. they did not abominate it.

See: Chilton, David. (1987). The Great Tribulation. Fort Worth, TX: Dominion Press.
Chilton, David. The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation. Dominion Press.
TX.
See: Mauro, Philip. The 70 Weeks and the Great Tribulation.
See: Gentry, Kenneth L., JR. The Beast of Revelation. Institute For Christian Economics.

Why would I want to look at this when all I have to do is look at scripture?

1. What covenant was confirmed in AD 68 by the future prince? there was non.
2. Daniel says this prince that confirms the covenant commits the abomination. What covenant did Titus confirm? He did not even have power to confirm any covenant.
3. What wars and desolation were supposed to be completed BEFORE this covenant was confirmed? There is still wars today. the end of wars have not been determined.

Try studying Gods word, and stop listening to men scott. and you will see it could not have been fulfilled yet.

 

[mpaper345]

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Here we see all 4 signs. The sun is darkened, the moon does not give its light, the heavens are shaken and the heavenly beings are shaken as well. This is the start of the Day of The Lord, the true end times "Great Tribulation." And all these signs happen at the BEGINNING of the Great Tribulation, not the end. The posty-trib model forces a misinterpretation of this verse, placing all the events incorrectly at the end of the Great Tribulation.



Interestingly enough, we also have an Old Testament confirmation of the correct timing as well:

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


God CLEARLY and unequivocally shakes the heaven and earth in this passage. And we see this fulfilled at the 6th Seal.

These scriptures are talking of the wrath of God being poured upon the heathen.

But the wrath of God does get poured out on the heathen until after the tribulation period,so these scriptures are talking about after the tribulation.

The tribulation is not a tribulation for the world of the wrath of God being poured upon them,but the tribulation is a tribulation for the saints,persecution of the saints.

The Bible says that the beast has power to operate during his reign,and the only one to give him this power is God,which God is allowing the beast to deceive all people who do not love Him(Revelation 13).

Since God is allowing the beast power to operate and deceive the world,then God will not violate that and punish him and the world until after he rules for three and one half years.

Those scriptures are talking of God punishing the world,which happens after the tribulation period.
The tribulation is persecution of the saints,not punishment of the world.

When the beast appears he blasphemes against God and His tabernacle,which means the saints have to be on earth,because if the saints are not on earth,then he would not go against the Christian religion,for there would be no sense to do so,and he makes war against the saints(Revelation 13).

Why would the beast go against the Christian religion if the Christians are not there on earth.There is no need to go against something to convince the world that it is not truth and not beneficial,if it is not present to be a threat to their system.

When the beast appears he tells the world that the Christian religion is not truth,and their God is not true,and that it is all about man with no authority above them,and they go against the Christians.

The Bible says the saints cannot be united with Christ until the man of sin,the beast,appears claiming to be God(2 Thessalonians 2),and the saints shall be given in to the little horn's hands,the beast,for three and one half years(Daniel 7),which the saints shall be persecuted by the world which is the tribulation.

The wrath of God does not get poured upon the world until after the reign of the beast,after the tribulation.

Those scriptures are talking of God punishing the world which comes after the great tribulation.

 

[A-Omega]

These scriptures are talking of the wrath of God being poured upon the heathen.

But the wrath of God does get poured out on the heathen until after the tribulation period,so these scriptures are talking about after the tribulation.

The tribulation is not a tribulation for the world of the wrath of God being poured upon them,but the tribulation is a tribulation for the saints,persecution of the saints.

See, these to me are like man-made ideas about Scripture. If you look at my original post I am discussing the specific identifying events that Jesus The Lord Himself states. That is how we can know when things occur in the prophetic timeline. Saying things like "the tribulation period" which is not a proper noun biblical event in the Bible leaves us to keep guessing for meaning. Jesus identifed 4 supernatural signs and I think it's clear upon Biblical examination that they only take place once in the Bible. That is my position.

The Bible says that the beast has power to operate during his reign,and the only one to give him this power is God,which God is allowing the beast to deceive all people who do not love Him(Revelation 13).

Since God is allowing the beast power to operate and deceive the world,then God will not violate that and punish him and the world until after he rules for three and one half years.

Again saying God will not violate that implies that there is some verse in Scripture that says that the Antichrist will reign with complete peace and God will never interfere or judge the world at that time. Yet the Bible does not say this. I am just trying to interpret these passages based on plain statements of scripture.

Why would the beast go against the Christian religion if the Christians are not there on earth.There is no need to go against something to convince the world that it is not truth and not beneficial,if it is not present to be a threat to their system.

There will be new Christians in the world during the 7 year reign of the Antichrist. This is why God sends 144,000 witnesses. This is why Jesus sends His 2 witnesses to Jerusalem to preach for the first ha;f of the 70th week. There are also angels going out in the world proclaiming the Gospel. So there will be lots of new Christians. And the Antichrist will persecute them.

The Bible says the saints cannot be united with Christ until the man of sin,the beast,appears claiming to be God(2 Thessalonians 2),and the saints shall be given in to the little horn's hands,the beast,for three and one half years(Daniel 7),which the saints shall be persecuted by the world which is the tribulation.

The Bible says that first the Antichrist will be "revealed." For all we know he may not even be in power at that time, but his identity will be known (i.e., he is on the rise).

The wrath of God does not get poured upon the world until after the reign of the beast,after the tribulation.

Again, I think people are really latching onto to the phrase "after the tribulation.." and ignoring the rest of the verse. Jesus gives clear markers that line up with the 6th Seal. That is the clear delineation to the start of the end times provided by Jesus Himself. not to mention at the 6th Seal, the world exlclaims that the great day of God's wrath has come. It just seems to really line up when you just look at what the verses are saying and let go of the rules and notions that are not explicitly stated in Scripture. Just something to consider. God bless.

 

[peterT]

There will be new Christians in the world during the 7 year reign of the Antichrist. This is why God sends 144,000 witnesses. This is why Jesus sends His 2 witnesses to Jerusalem to preach for the first ha;f of the 70th week. There are also angels going out in the world proclaiming the Gospel. So there will be lots of new Christians. And the Antichrist will persecute them.



.

Where does it say the Antichrist he will reign for seven years?

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

And if there’s no resurrection/rapture before the great tribulation, then the Antichrist will persecute us, not some new Christians.

All you have to do is show a resurrection/rapture before the great tribulation and your theory will have merit.

And don’t use Lot as an example of a pre-trib coming.

The example of Lot was he obeyed the lord and was spared God’s wrath, just like the children of Israel obeyed the lord and was spared God’s wrath (the blood on the door posts)

 

[A-Omega]

Where does it say the Antichrist he will reign for seven years?

Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.

And if there’s no resurrection/rapture before the great tribulation, then the Antichrist will persecute us, not some new Christians.

All you have to do is show a resurrection/rapture before the great tribulation and your theory will have merit.

No, I don't. This is what I am stating in this thread:


29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is by far and away the most used proof text for the Post-Trib Rapture model. The logic behind its use is basically: "since it says 'after the tribulation..' then the rapture is clearly post-trib" without much more exposition done on the verse. The problem with this is that it ignores the signs that are also given in that verse. We have:

1) The sun being darkened
2) The moon not giving light
3) The stars fall from heaven
4) The powers of the heavens shall be shaken

And I submit these signs ALL occur at the 6th Seal. If you can show me otherwise, please, by all means, show me. This is the main point I am making. And for some reason, I am not getting much response addressing that actual text that I cite. But if you'd like to, I'm all ears.

 

[peterT]

No, I don't. This is what I am stating in this thread:


29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This is by far and away the most used proof text for the Post-Trib Rapture model. The logic behind its use is basically: "since it says 'after the tribulation..' then the rapture is clearly post-trib" without much more exposition done on the verse. The problem with this is that it ignores the signs that are also given in that verse. We have:

1) The sun being darkened
2) The moon not giving light
3) The stars fall from heaven
4) The powers of the heavens shall be shaken

And I submit these signs ALL occur at the 6th Seal. If you can show me otherwise, please, by all means, show me. This is the main point I am making. And for some reason, I am not getting much response addressing that actual text that I cite. But if you'd like to, I'm all ears.

No its not. And it’s not the only text, here is some more for you.


It just happens that Jesus comes in the clouds.

It just happens that Jesus comes at the last trumpet.

It just happens that Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel..

It just happens that Jesus raises the dead first.



It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised from the dead.

It just happens that the two end time prophets hear a voce saying come up hither.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised in the clouds

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised at the sound of the last trumpet.



all this at the end of the tribulation
　
　
THE FIRST RESURRECTION


Rv20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in THE FIRST RESURRECTION:


1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


THE FIRST RESURRECTION

 

[A-Omega]

No its not. And it’s not the only text, here is some more for you.


It just happens that Jesus comes in the clouds.

It just happens that Jesus comes at the last trumpet.

It just happens that Jesus comes with the voice of the archangel..

It just happens that Jesus raises the dead first.



It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised from the dead.

It just happens that the two end time prophets hear a voce saying come up hither.

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised in the clouds

It just happens that the two end time prophets are raised at the sound of the last trumpet.



all this at the end of the tribulation
　
　
THE FIRST RESURRECTION


Rv20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in THE FIRST RESURRECTION:


1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past; [and], behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.


THE FIRST RESURRECTION

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say. If you care to explain what you mean with these verses I'd be glad to respond.