Pray your flight not be in winter

[Shilo]

The Maccabees in 165 BC looked upon an abomination that caused desolation. They then to cleanse the temple, built a new clean altar, made new holy vessels, lampstand, table, and altar of incense. Then they had a dedication ( Chanukah) to the LORD.
In the Bible you also have another festival of dedication ( Chanukah) in the bible it is in Daniel 3
1 King Nebuchadnezzar made an image of gold, sixty cubits high and six cubits wide,[a] and set it up on the plain of Dura in the province of Babylon. 2 He then summoned the satraps, prefects, governors, advisers, treasurers, judges, magistrates and all the other provincial officials to come to the dedication of the image he had set up. 3 So the satraps, prefects, governors, advisers, treasurers, judges, magistrates and all the other provincial officials assembled for the dedication ( Chanukah) of the image that King Nebuchadnezzar had set up, and they stood before it.
4 Then the herald loudly proclaimed, “Nations and peoples of every language, this is what you are commanded to do: 5 As soon as you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, you must fall down and worship the image of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up. 6 Whoever does not fall down and worship will immediately be thrown into a blazing furnace.”
Chanukah is celebrated in the winter.
John 10:22 It was now winter, and Jesus was in Jerusalem at the time of Chanukah, the Festival of Dedication.
Matthew 24:15-22
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
In 70 AD no abomination was set up in the temple it was justransacked and burned. This destruction of the temple did not fulfill Matthew 24
Is Yeshua giving us the time when the Abomination that causes desolation will be set up winter?

 

[tribesman]

...In 70 AD no abomination was set up in the temple it was justransacked and burned. This destruction of the temple did not fulfill Matthew 24...

There are plenty of interpreters that disagree with that statement.

Matthew 24:15 - Abomination of Desolation* |* Study Archive <- link

On Thin Ice: How Thomas Ice Refutes a Future Great Tribulation <- link

 

[midwestbob]

There are plenty of interpreters that disagree with that statement.

Matthew 24:15 - Abomination of Desolation* |* Study Archive <- link

On Thin Ice: How Thomas Ice Refutes a Future Great Tribulation <- link

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke tells us that it is Jerusalem that is desolated, in his parallel verse:

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains...

All three apostles also confirm something about the timing, because we find it is written about a future event as in "... ye shall see...", so we can conclude that it was to be an abomination, associated with the desolation of Jerusalem, in the future to the time at which Jesus delivered this discourse, even though it was "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" well over 500 years prior to when Jesus delivered this Olivet Discourse.

Jerusalem was compassed with armies on many occasions after the discourse was delivered including 70 AD, 132, 639, 1099, 1187, 1948, 1967 and indeed even as of this writing. In 70 AD, a million Jews were killed, and an already long desolate temple was torn down. Jesus had declared almost 40 years earlier: Matt 23:38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.", in part because the Pharisees had made "...the word of God of none effect through your tradition..." (Mark 7:13), a condition in which we seem to find much of today's church. If the temple had not already been rendered desolate as Jesus' declaration above would seem to suggest, then it was certainly rendered desolate through Jesus' shed blood on the Cross, almost 40 years before the temple was torn down in 70 AD. That is also why "...the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom..." after Jesus had "...yielded up the ghost..." on the Cross (Matt 27:50-51). In 70 AD the Christians escaped, and were saved from the slaughter of the Romans, not even desolating the Christian community.

Though a significant and horrific event in 70 AD, the Roman Gentiles came back to slaughter another 600,000-750,000 Jews less than 65 years later, in the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132-135 AD.

Later in the Olivet Discourse we find:

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

So Luke gives us another historical time pin. It would seem problematic indeed to suggest that the "times of the Gentiles" were fulfilled in 70 AD since the Roman Gentiles came back for a double dip of Jewish slaughter less than 65 years later. Let alone the list of Gentile armies from throughout the Christian era listed earlier. Blessedly, as Daniel's "times" seem to demonstrate - both mathematically and textually - the "times of the Gentiles" were fulfilled in 1967, when the Jews were restored to power and control of Jerusalem for the first time in over 2500 years. We read "... when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people..." - the end of the scattering of the power of the Jews - the only "holy people" of Daniel's day.

Jerusalem was temporarily desolated in 70 AD, again in 132 AD, and conquered again in 639 AD when Khalifah Omar marched into town during the Islamic First Jihad. The church was alive and well since history tells us that Bishop Sophronius was compelled to show Khalifah Omar around town. History has shown that nothing was more physically or spiritually desolating to Jerusalem than 1100 years of Islamization and accompanying exile of Christians and Jews. By the early 1800's there were just 550 residents. This is why the historical record of Jerusalem in first quarter of the 19th century is sketchy and anecdotal at best.

In "A History of the Jews" Paul Johnson writes on page 321: "Between 1827 and 1839, largely through British efforts, the population of Jerusalem rose from 550 to 5,500 and in all Palestine it topped 10,000 - the real beginning of the Jewish return to the Promised Land. In 1838 Palmerston appointed the first western vice-consul in Jerusalem, W.T. Young, and told him 'to afford protection to the Jews generally'."

Even 30 years later in 1867 Mark Twain described it thus: “ ...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”


As I said earlier the events of 70AD were certainly horrific, but the events of 70AD pale when compared to the desolation that occurred under the 1100 years of Islamization and accompanying exile of Christians and Jews

 

[mpaper345]

Jesus did not say that it would happen in the winter time,but pray that it will not happen in the winter time.

The reason it would seem like,for the Jews to pray that it does not happen in the winter time,is because when the abomination of desolation is set up,which is when the man of sin enters the soon to come Jews newly built temple,and claims to be God,then they are to run like the dickens,get out of Jerusalem as fast as possible,and hope that there is nothing to hinder you from escaping as fast as you can.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understan 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be(Matthew 24:15-21).


Jesus told them to flee,and if someone is on the housetop do not go in your house to get personal things,but flee as fast as you can.
If someone is in the field,do not go to get clothes from your house,but flee as fast as you can.


What Jesus is saying is to flee as fast as you can,not bothering to go back for anything,but from where ever you are,flee as fast as you can from that point,not going back for anything.


Then Jesus said woe unto them that are with child,and to those who have children,because these things will hinder them from fleeing as fast as they can for they are pregnant,or have small children to take along,or both.A person cannot flee as fast as they can,when they are pregnant,or have to take small children with them.


Then Jesus said pray that your flight be not in the winter,for that is another thing that can hinder a person from fleeing as fast as they can,and pray that your flight is not on the sabbath day,for that is another thing that can hinder a person from fleeing as fast as they can,probably because on the sabbath day the Jews are limited on how far they can travel,and might have people try to stop them from traveling too far,if they know where they came from,or observed them.


What Jesus is saying is flee as fast as you can,not going back for anything,and pray that it does not happen in winter,for that could slow you down.


Jesus is pointing out the importance of getting out of there as fast as possible,for there will be persecution against those that are with Jesus that has never been seen before in the history of mankind,and will never be seen again.


Since the man of sin will step in their temple and claim to be God,who will exalt himself above all that is called God or is worshipped,and his agenda will be it is all about man,then he will persecute worldwide all Christians and get control of the world to have the world on his side.

Of course Jesus is speaking to the Jews who are on Jesus' side to flee as fast as they can,which God will soon send two witnesses to the Jews to turn their hearts to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah(Revelation chapter 11).

The Bible says that the Jews will rebuild their temple soon,which will probably be placed next to the Arabs Mosque on the temple mount,which the Bible says the Gentiles will tread on the outer court for three and one half years,which would be by way of a peace treaty between them,giving them both liberty on the temple mount,agreed by both because of the treaty.

It appears that because of the treaty Jerusalem will be split between them,for when God comes to save the Jews and fight the world,half of the city is taken captive,but the other half is not touched(Zechariah chapter 14).

The Jews are not only to pray that their flight is not in the winter time,but also it is not on the sabbath day.

 

[Shilo]

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun Ecc 1:9

For a prophecy to be fulfilled it must have all the verses of the prophecy done or it is only a partial fulfillment.

70 AD did not do that.

Yeshua told us to pray that it does not happen in winter. Look in the old testamant when God said do something and they did not do it they got the curse and not the blessing. I have not heard of people praying about our flight not being in winter. You could be right if people start praying about it then it will not be in the winter.

 

[mpaper345]

I think what Jesus is trying to convey seriously,overall,by different examples,is to pray that nothing hinders the Jews from fleeing as fast as they can away from the man of sin,which going back to get something,having children,winter time,and the sabbath day,would slow them down from fleeing as fast as they can,because the man of sin is not playing,but will persecute all Christians,when the 10 horns,which is the world,hands their power over to him,and not that it will be in winter time,although it could be,but that is not the point Jesus was making.

 

[midwestbob]

The Bible says that the Jews will rebuild their temple soon,

We can’t assume that the Jews will build a temple because of 2Th2:3-4 Remember Jesus declared their temple desolate years before it was destroyed. Even if the Jews rebuild that building, nothing changed it will still be just a desolate building, not the temple of God. Scripture tells us the temple of God is the body of a believer (1Cor3:16-17 2Cor6:16) or the corporate body of believer’s (Eph2:19-21)

which will probably be placed next to the Arabs Mosque on the temple mount,which the Bible says the Gentiles will tread on the outer court for three and one half years

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

It is Jerusalem that is trodden over for 42 months, the court was given to the Gentiles as a result Gentiles may still be controlling the temple mount when the Lord returns.

,which would be by way of a peace treaty between them,giving them both liberty on the temple mount,agreed by both because of the treaty.

Nothing in Scripture says anything about a treaty “giving them both liberty on the temple mount,agreed by both because of the treaty”

 

[tribesman]

What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun Ecc 1:9

For a prophecy to be fulfilled it must have all the verses of the prophecy done or it is only a partial fulfillment.

70 AD did not do that.

Yeshua told us to pray that it does not happen in winter. Look in the old testamant when God said do something and they did not do it they got the curse and not the blessing. I have not heard of people praying about our flight not being in winter. You could be right if people start praying about it then it will not be in the winter.

You are entitled to your opinion. However so far you have presented no plausible arguments for them. And you have been presented with other views and interpretations of same scriptures.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As for winter time. I agree with those who said Jesus said pray your flight is not in winter or sabaath. Because this would stop you from fleeing (Which is forbidden in those situation) thus would prevent or hinder you from fleeing to the mountains.

As for when it happens. We do not know. Although, even though some in here disagree, I agree, it has not happened yet. For many reasons.

1. Reasons it did not happen in 70 AD.

In daniel. the destruction of the city is prophesied. Then many things happen before the desolation occurs.

The end of desolation's of the city will be with a flood (Overwhelming power) Meaning the city of David will be kept desolate by an overwhelming power, prevenitng it and the temple to be rebuilt.

This will continue until wars and desolation's are determined. It is not a "one time event" as many want to believe, It will continue through many wars and desolation's, which is predetermined, most likely by God. meaning during this time, Isreal will not just be allowed to rebuild the city and temple (This is going on today as we speak. Even though Isreal has regained occupancy of most of her land, She is still forbidden from taking over jeruslam and temple by the same flood, even though almost every jew wants to do just this.

Some future leader (who comes from the people who destroyed jerusalem and the temple) will confirm a 7 year covenant.

in the middle of this week, he will then commit this abomination which Jesus speaks of.

We then can go to another prophetic book, and see why Jesus tells them to flee to the mountains of judea.

The man of sin goes after the woman. Yet God protects the woman. The woman is the one who gave birth to Christ (Israel)

Since the man of sin is prevented from hurting the woman, he turns his sights on her children (Gentiles who follow God or the church)

We also know a few other things will happen.

1. Tribulation such as has never been seen, even till this day. This could not have been 70 AD, because ww1 and ww2 were far more sever and great in tribulation than 70 AD could think of being (which is scary because this time will make both world wars look like a picnic)

2. This time will be so dangerous and sever, man has the chance to wipe itself off the face of the earth. We know, because Jesus says if he did not intervine, ALL FLESH WOULD BE KILLED. But he comes for the sake of the elect (Israel and gentile believers who are alive at the time)

All it takes is an open mind and open heart to see and understand 70 AD could not have fuflilled this prophesy, of Daniel, or Jesus, or revelation. All these things are yet future in nature.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are entitled to your opinion. However so far you have presented no plausible arguments for them. And you have been presented with other views and interpretations of same scriptures.

Yet those views have not been proven. but are mere speculation. Sadly they do not follow scriptural proof or reasoning.

 

[tribesman]

Yet those views have not been proven. but are mere speculation. Sadly they do not follow scriptural proof or reasoning.

Have you looked at the links provided in my first post of this thread?:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/35295-pray-your-flight-not-winter.html#post607355 <-link (caution, quite a lot of reading)

While at it, you may look at this one as well:

What Early Christians believed about Mt 24 & destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD <-link

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Have you looked at the links provided in my first post of this thread?:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/35295-pray-your-flight-not-winter.html#post607355 <-link (caution, quite a lot of reading)

While at it, you may look at this one as well:

What Early Christians believed about Mt 24 & destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD <-link

Did you read what I posted above? There are to many unanswered questions in the belief that all this happened in 70 AD. In fact. It is IMPOSSIBLE that they did happen in 70 AD. If you would like to show me where I erred above. feel free. But I can't see it.

 

[tribesman]

Did you read what I posted above? There are to many unanswered questions in the belief that all this happened in 70 AD. In fact. It is IMPOSSIBLE that they did happen in 70 AD. If you would like to show me where I erred above. feel free. But I can't see it.

Yep, I read that. You were talking about "speculations" earlier. But how would term the notion that a temple has to be rebuilt in order for this prophecy to be fulfilled? Where is a scripture that supports the view that a temple has to be rebuilt, or even will be rebuilt to this end?

This "7 year covenant" is classical dispensational, pre-trib teaching, it has been disproven elsewhere at this forum and you, and anyone else interested, can seek for the posts. Again, an alternative interpretation of Daniel, but no explicit biblical statements.

The tribulation Jesus spoke of was all about Jerusalem and for the jews. The concepts "world" and "end of the world" in the contemporary context did not mean the entire planet earth and all its inhabitants but the chosen people and the Holy Land. And this horrible tribulation was a one time event. Tribulation there is and will always be for christians however, until the Lord returns as prophesied. And that one prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.

Now, did you read the links I gave?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep, I read that. You were talking about "speculations" earlier. But how would term the notion that a temple has to be rebuilt in order for this prophecy to be fulfilled? Where is a scripture that supports the view that a temple has to be rebuilt, or even will be rebuilt to this end?

Again, as I said, an open mind must be used to see this.
What is an "abomination which makes desolate" it is something which can only occure in the inner sanctum of the jewish temple. Thus to see if a temple might be built, we must see when this will take place. If it has not occured yet. Simple logic dictates that a temple must be rebuilt for this to take place. I have seen no proof that this occured in 70 AD. in fact I see quite the opposite.

This "7 year covenant" is classical dispensational, pre-trib teaching, it has been disproven elsewhere at this forum and you, and anyone else interested, can seek for the posts. Again, an alternative interpretation of Daniel, but no explicit biblical statements.

Thats your opinion. But the facts do not support your theory. Gabriel made a statement of fact. Some leader will confirm a covenant for one week. In jewish timeline, a week is 7 years. And in the middle of that week (after 3 1/2 years) that same leader will commit the abomination of desolation. No time in history, on or about 70 AD was any covenant confirmed. Let alone, in the middle of that week. no abomination was made. The facts alone destroy the 70 AD theory.

This does not even take into account the "end of wars and desolations" which occure between the destruction and the abomination.

The tribulation Jesus spoke of was all about Jerusalem and for the jews. The concepts "world" and "end of the world" in the contemporary context did not mean the entire planet earth and all its inhabitants but the chosen people and the Holy Land. And this horrible tribulation was a one time event. Tribulation there is and will always be for christians however, until the Lord returns as prophesied. And that one prophecy has not yet been fulfilled.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

1. What days need to be shortened
2. "No flesh" this is speaking of only jews?? says who?
3. Before this. Jesus says nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kigdom. But the end is not near. What wars were jesus talking about before this abomination at the end takes place??

sorry. But I have read all the posts concerning these events. and have seen nothing but mere speculation. with no proof these things have occured yet.

Now, did you read the links I gave?

Why should i read them? I have probably read and discussed the post in here. And have spent years on this subject. This is a bible discussion forum, if you would like to discuss. lets discuss.

 

[mpaper345]

You are right midwestbob,it is the holy city they tread under foot for three and one half years.I should of checked with that scripture,for I knew the outer court was for the Gentiles,but thought it was the outer court the tread under foot.

 

[Shilo]

The antichrist is going to be dealing with wars, famines, disease and natural disasters. People will blame Christians for what they are going through. Jesus lets us know that those who are in Judea need to flee to the mountains. Judea means The praised one. We who love Jesus are all in him the praised one. Jesus could be telling all his people to flee to the mountains like a great exodus. The antichrist will have his hands full with the christians who do not leave the cities and all the other things going on to go get a few people from the mountains.
But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time rev 12:14
'You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles' wings and brought you to myself ex 19:4
Doesn&#8217;t it stand to reason that God would want all his people to come out of the cities?
He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God 2thes 2:4
This did not happen in 70ad Titus did not do this

 

[tribesman]

Again, as I said, an open mind must be used to see this.
What is an "abomination which makes desolate" it is something which can only occure in the inner sanctum of the jewish temple. Thus to see if a temple might be built, we must see when this will take place. If it has not occured yet. Simple logic dictates that a temple must be rebuilt for this to take place. I have seen no proof that this occured in 70 AD. in fact I see quite the opposite.

These pagan romans who defiled the sanctuary were not considered abominations enough? I asked for a scriipture which explicitly says that the temple must or will be rebuilt in order for this prophesy to be fulfilled.

Thats your opinion. But the facts do not support your theory. Gabriel made a statement of fact. Some leader will confirm a covenant for one week. In jewish timeline, a week is 7 years. And in the middle of that week (after 3 1/2 years) that same leader will commit the abomination of desolation. No time in history, on or about 70 AD was any covenant confirmed. Let alone, in the middle of that week. no abomination was made. The facts alone destroy the 70 AD theory.

If so,then these are your opinions. As said, dispensationalism has been disproven before at this forum and I see no need to repeat it.

Why should i read them? I have probably read and discussed the post in here. And have spent years on this subject. This is a bible discussion forum, if you would like to discuss. lets discuss.

It's up to you if you read them or not. In these links the view of the early church and much of the church in history (especially before the appearance of dispensationalism) on the matter is presented. This is also my view. There's nothing I wish to add to it. Anyone who want to know about it may look it up.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

These pagan romans who defiled the sanctuary were not considered abominations enough? I asked for a scriipture which explicitly says that the temple must or will be rebuilt in order for this prophesy to be fulfilled.

Did you read Daniel?
1. The prince of the people who destroy the temple commit the abomnination. not the people themselves.
2. An "Abomination" of desolation is sacrificing a forign God, or unclean thing in the inner sanctom. Destroying it is not committing an abomination that makes desolate. As you was shown. Macabbes records one of these, when antiochus epiphanes sacrificed a pig in the inner sanctum. This was an abomination, which makes desolate the inner sanctum.

Abomination in the hebrew used By daniel.

9199 &#1513;&#1473;&#1460;&#1511;&#1468;&#1493;&#1468;&#1509; (&#353;iq&#8729;qû&#7779: n.masc.; &#8801; Str 8251; TWOT 2459b&#8212;1. LN 53.33&#8211;53.40 vileness, i.e., a state of detestable uncleanness (Hos 9:10+); 2. LN 53.33&#8211;53.40 vile idol, i.e., an idol, and the pagan god which it represents, with a special focus of being an abominable, repulsive thing which causes covenantal uncleanness

Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Hebrew (Old Testament) (electronic ed.). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

It means the same in the greek. To abominate something is to make it unclean. Or an "idol"

&#946;&#948;&#941;&#955;&#965;&#947;&#956;&#945;, -&#964;&#959;&#962;, &#964;&#972;, (&#946;&#948;&#949;&#955;&#973;&#963;&#963;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953, a bibl. and eccl. word; in Sept. mostly for &#1514;&#1468;&#1493;&#775;&#1506;&#1461;&#1489;&#1464;&#1492;, also for &#1513;&#1473;&#1460;&#1511;&#1493;&#1468;&#1509; and &#1513;&#1473;&#1462;&#1511;&#1462;&#1509;, a foul thing (loathsome on acct. of its stench), a detestable thing; (Tertull. abominarmentum); Luth. Greuel; [A. V. abomination];

Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (99). New York: Harper & Brothers.

The romans destroyed the temple. they did not "abominate" it, or make it unclean.

If it has not happened yet. How can it happen unless the temple is rebuilt? It is in scripture. you can't see it only because you think it already happened!

If so,then these are your opinions. As said, dispensationalism has been disproven before at this forum and I see no need to repeat it.

well thats your opinion. And it has not been disproven. Your unwillingness to show how I am wrong speaks volumes.

it is not opinion it is fact. Daniel would have understood a week to mean 7 years. He also would have understood the "abomination" would happen in the middle of this 7 year period. You can't destroy that and make it mean something else.

It's up to you if you read them or not. In these links the view of the early church and much of the church in history (especially before the appearance of dispensationalism) on the matter is presented. This is also my view. There's nothing I wish to add to it. Anyone who want to know about it may look it up.

Or I could listen ot the HS and see what he says. Who cares what those who call themselves the early church believed. If we listened to them we would all be catholic. Think about what your saying.,

It is fact the early church (at leasdt in writings we have that the catholics did not destroy) believed two things.

1. God was done with the jews.
2. The church took over ALL the covenants.

for these things to be true. All future prophesy must be taken symbolically, not literally. or made to have "already taken place"

Forgive me if I have a major problem with this. All OT prophesy was fulfilled literally. It would be a grave mistake to symbolize all future prophesy. God does not change the way he does things.

One of the major things which separates God from all False gods. is his ability to prophesy. And these prophesies LITERALLY take place. If God can not prophesy literally. he is no better than a false God. who you can symbolize their prophesies and almost make all of them come true too.

Sorry. My God says "this will happen" in "this time frome" It wass happen 100 % as God says it will.

God may use symbology to symbolise things and events. But he never symbolised time, EVER

As for it being "up to me " to read them.

Dude I have studied this topic for over 20 years. You think I am going to read something I never read before?

 

[Shilo]

Revelation 11:1 shows there is a temple

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Revelation 11:1 shows there is a temple

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there

Good point. Especially what is said after. The gentiles will trample it and control it for 3 1/2 years. This temple was not destroyed, It is the temple of the man of sin, who commits the abomination and takes it for himself. Until the "times of the gentiles "spoken all over scripture is fulfilled.