Prayer of the Arminian, Charles Spurgeon

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ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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For a Deterministic Calvinist, prayer is the predetermined “means” to a prescripted end.

remember, God has sent me here to point out the futility of the Calvinistic position or I would not be here

which of course, if you are Calvinist, pretermines everything you will retort or even think

best to get off that merry-go-round and the dizzying consequences with predetermined conclusions that make prayer obsolete

the op, it would seem, cannot distinguish between an insult and biblical support for his position

as others have stated here, it appears that some Calvinists absolutely enjoy insulting others and think that somehow undergirds their obvious self righteous platform
"God has sent me" is a very bold statement. It might be a good thing to re-evaluate just who did send you!
 

garee

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You evidently have no clue as to why God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel, Gen 33:28.
It would seem no clue or no interest in how God designs meaning into words .Change the meaning destroy the purpose intended. And in the end violate the warning not to. (Deuteronomy 4:2)

The very fact that all Israel is elect, yet all Israel was not saved proves the two ways the word all is used. #1 A remnant of the whole or #2the whole as a mix of those elected and those he did not have mercy on. The remnant not elected are classified as gentiles or outward Jews pertaining to the flesh and not inward Jew according to the unseen Spirit of Christ. . . the born again seed. .

It would be the same kind of interpretation below.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all the (remnant) be made alive.

Not the first birth in Adam, but the second in Christ .As many as the father gave they alone can come. Not one more or one less.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Mark 13:20

“Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 21“And then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ’; or, ‘Behold, He is there’; do not believe him; 22for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

It doesnt get any clearer than that Melach…...
Consider the following TWO (or 3, actually, and some of it is abbreviated for "length-sake" :D ) passages, about which I will also make some very brief points/comments:

1)--Matthew 25:31-46 -

The Sheep and the Goats

31 And when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit upon His throne of glory [this is His *earthly throne; see also Matt19:28!]. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him [these are "still-living" persons on the earth upon His "RETURN" there], and He will separate them one from another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And indeed He will set the sheep on His right hand, and the goats on His left.

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, those being blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom having been prepared for you from [apo; not BEFORE/pro said of OTHERS elsewhere!] the foundation of the world. 35 For I hungered, and you gave Me to eat [...<snip>... (etc)]

37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungering [etc...etc...]
40 And the King answering, will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did it to Me.’

41 Then also He will say to those on the left, ‘Depart from Me, those being cursed, into the eternal fire, having been prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I hungered, and you gave to Me nothing to eat [...<snip>... (etc)]

44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?’
45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither did you to Me.’
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life.”

[these/"the righteous" (of the nationS [plural]) are who enter the MK age along with the believing remnant of Israel ("the WISE [of Israel]" spoken of in Dan12:1-4,10, and v.12 [to whom the "the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom WAS PROMISED (see Acts 1:6, Matt19:28, Matt22:8-14, Lk12:35-36,38,40,42-44, Matt8:11, among other passages])... the nationS/Gentiles being "the guests [plural]" in these kinds of contexts... meaning, their/Israel's "INVITED guests [plural]" to their promised and prophesied earthly MK age<---neither of these being "the Church which is His body," per contexts; and Matthew 24:29-31 parallels Isaiah 27:12-13 (plz see this passage!) when the elect of Israel (having come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture) will (at the END of the trib) be gathered "ONE by ONE" to "worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM" (ENTERING the MK AGE)]


2)--Matthew 20:16 and Matthew 22:14 (considered in their contexts*), "For many are called [G2822 - [kletoi], but few chosen [G1588 - eklektoi]."

[*contexts: Matthew 20:16 is in the context of "Labourers in the vineyard" (see Isa5:7 "the VINEYARD of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel"); and Matthew 22:14 is in the context of "inviting the guests [plural (i.e. "the nations")] to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [aka the earthly MK age]" (note: not "the MARRIAGE/UNION-with[G4862]" thing! "The BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" is NOT "the guestS [PLURAL]" etc); these TWO passages cover both "Israel" and "the Gentiles/nations" which are both distinct [and kept distinct in these passages and other related ones (like, for example in Rev7, where they are set in contradistinction to each other)] not only from each other [distinct], but also distinct from "the Church which is His body"]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ EDIT to finish what I ran out of time to ADD (in the BOLD):

" ... (like, for example in Rev7, where they are set in contradistinction to each other)] not only from each other [distinct], but also distinct from "the Church which is His body" (wherein there is NO DISTINCTION)]


[my post formatted improperly, so I also lost a few of the personal comments at top... basically saying to feel free to respond or not, to this post, as you wish :) ]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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This might be a good place for me to reiterate (for the sake of the readers who may not have followed CC long):
I am neither Calvinist[/Reformed] NOR Arminianist.
 

TooFastTurtle

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Apr 10, 2019
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This might be a good place for me to reiterate (for the sake of the readers who may not have followed CC long):
I am neither Calvinist[/Reformed] NOR Arminianist.
When you hear someone say that it usually means they are 4 point arminians. They agree with every point except for the last one. You believe in free will, but you believe you cannot forfeit salvation. Is that right?
 

TooFastTurtle

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What of Molinism?
Everyone is free to believe what they want or see as truth.

In my opinion there is only two logical conclusions and two suitable choices.

If one holds to OSAS, I believe the consistent path to follow is Reformed theology, because if the salvation is not up to man's will in any sort of way, OSAS makes perfect sense.

However if one believes in the freedom of the will, I believe the consistent path to follow is that of "Arminianism" as they call it, or "Semi-Pelagianism" as they call it.

What drew me to the conclusion is that I believe it is inconsistent to say you can accept Jesus of your free will, but then all of a sudden your will stops and you are saved forever, regardless of behavior. This is again why I consider many of the Reformed my brethren in the faith, they got the consistent OSAS belief which maintains repentance and holy living. Not the have your cake and eat it too theology being splattered on our TV-screens and books and media.

That is just my opinion, I will not be debating it, just putting my view here.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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When you hear someone say that it usually means they are 4 point arminians. They agree with every point except for the last one. You believe in free will, but you believe you cannot forfeit salvation. Is that right?
No. I do not believe any member of the Church which is His body can ever lose OR FORFEIT salvation.

So, no, your assessment (of my view, and my wording) is not correct. :)

[I believe 'OSAS' / 'eternal security' of the believer]
 

Magenta

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Everyone is free to believe what they want or see as truth.

In my opinion there is only two logical conclusions and two suitable choices.

If one holds to OSAS, I believe the consistent path to follow is Reformed theology, because if the salvation is not up to man's will in any sort of way, OSAS makes perfect sense.

However if one believes in the freedom of the will, I believe the consistent path to follow is that of "Arminianism" as they call it, or "Semi-Pelagianism" as they call it.

What drew me to the conclusion is that I believe it is inconsistent to say you can accept Jesus of your free will, but then all of a sudden your will stops and you are saved forever, regardless of behavior. This is again why I consider many of the Reformed my brethren in the faith, they got the consistent OSAS belief which maintains repentance and holy living. Not the have your cake and eat it too theology being splattered on our TV-screens and books and media.

That is just my opinion, I will not be debating it, just putting my view here.
For the record, I do not care for the term "free will" :)
 

TooFastTurtle

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Apr 10, 2019
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No. I do not believe any member of the Church which is His body can ever lose OR FORFEIT salvation.

So, no, your assessment (of my view, and my wording) is not correct. :)

[I believe 'OSAS' / 'eternal security' of the believer]
I was right you just confirmed what I said? :D

What I said was: You believe in free will, but you believe you cannot forfeit salvation. Is that right?

I think you read the word cannot as "can"
 

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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For the record, I do not care for the term "free will" :)
Its one of those phrases that generates love as well as hate.

God created mankind upright giving them his will that worked in them. He did not make them into robots But according to his loving authority he did not want them to experience obeying the will of another as in dying death will occur.

The source of faith, the glory of God departed .As a result of their new corrupted will in bondage they knew the glory had departed they saw their nakedness with their own eyes . . and tried to cover their naked shame.

Free will to a new creature as a son of God is to do the will of the father not seen just as by example of the Son of man, Jesus . Why be captive to the will of the father of lies?

I would think if it feels robotic we can be sure whose voice it is . Take off the armor of God... You will not surely die, keep eating to your hearts content. if it feels good just do it. ..

As sons of God what we are is not what we will be. Beleive without murmuring.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:philipian2:13-14

Husbands obey your wives.. . Re calculating Wives love your husbands . . Re calculating (LOL)
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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Its one of those phrases that generates love as well as hate.

God created mankind upright giving them his will that worked in them. He did not make them into robots But according to his loving authority he did not want them to experience obeying the will of another as in dying death will occur.

The source of faith, the glory of God departed .As a result of their new corrupted will in bondage they knew the glory had departed they saw their nakedness with their own eyes . . and tried to cover their naked shame.

Free will to a new creature as a son of God is to do the will of the father not seen just as by example of the Son of man, Jesus . Why be captive to the will of the father of lies?

I would think if it feels robotic we can be sure whose voice it is . Take off the armor of God... You will not surely die, keep eating to your hearts content. if it feels good just do it. ..

As sons of God what we are is not what we will be. Beleive without murmuring.

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:philipian2:13-14

Husbands obey your wives.. . Re calculating Wives love your husbands . . Re calculating (LOL)
Hello Garee. I see the term free will as a misnomer. On the other hand, self will = that which is in opposition to God's will = is all throughout Scripture. Erroneous thinking proliferates in Christendom and is a major problem. Poorly defining the condition is a bad start.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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It would seem no clue or no interest in how God designs meaning into words .Change the meaning destroy the purpose intended. And in the end violate the warning not to. (Deuteronomy 4:2)

The very fact that all Israel is elect, yet all Israel was not saved proves the two ways the word all is used. #1 A remnant of the whole or #2the whole as a mix of those elected and those he did not have mercy on. The remnant not elected are classified as gentiles or outward Jews pertaining to the flesh and not inward Jew according to the unseen Spirit of Christ. . . the born again seed. .

It would be the same kind of interpretation below.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all the (remnant) be made alive.

Not the first birth in Adam, but the second in Christ .As many as the father gave they alone can come. Not one more or one less.
The nation of Israel was God's favored nation, but not all of the nation of Israel is elect, but all of Jacob, as Israel, are elect. If you read into all of the scriptures pertaining to Israel as being the nation of Israel, and not some of them referring to Jacob as Israel, the scriptures will not harmonize. God had a reason for changing Jacob's name to be called Israel. All believers in God are of the elect, but only a remnant of the elect are made to understand the fullness of the gospel.
 

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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The nation of Israel was God's favored nation, but not all of the nation of Israel is elect, but all of Jacob, as Israel, are elect. If you read into all of the scriptures pertaining to Israel as being the nation of Israel, and not some of them referring to Jacob as Israel, the scriptures will not harmonize. God had a reason for changing Jacob's name to be called Israel. All believers in God are of the elect, but only a remnant of the elect are made to understand the fullness of the gospel.

Genesis 32:27-28 King James Version (KJV) And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

While Jacob meaning. . he who wrestles with flesh and blood with no power to overcome . (the temporal seen).Is used represent the whole of mankind natural unconverted, as a outward Jew .

Israel meaning he who wrestles with flesh and blood with the aid of the Spirit of Christ working in him and overcomes by the power of God represents born again mankind as a inward Jew.

If any man has not the Spirit of Christ then neither do they belong to Him .

The fullness of the gospel is not after the flesh as to what the eyes see. Jeus says it profits for nothing. It the unseen Spirit of faith through words of faith that does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure .


John 6: 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Flesh nothing, nada, zero

All of the elect who are given ears to hear the gospel and therefore believe and are made to understand the fullness of the gospel.

There is no such thing as remnant of the gospel .Either Christ supllies all the grace neded to be born again .Or he supplies nothing .

Sounds like Catholicism a remnant of grace then comes limbo and purgatory .