Praying for the dead

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T

TheLearner

Well-known member
#81
Jan 14, 2019
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Brighton, MI
#81
On the other side of the coin,

We know from Isaiah 14:1-11 that the dead sleep like we do and wake up for their day. They have no direct knowledge what is going on "under the sun" or on the surface of the earth. We know from the book of Job that Angels go to heaven daily, thus it is possible for an guardian angel to make a side trip to speak to our relatives. Sometimes, God brings the name of person to our attentions --- I pray for that person. It is also possible for God to do that for those in Heaven too. When someone dies they can visit talk to someone who knows people on earth too.
 
listenyoumustAll

listenyoumustAll

Well-known member
#82
Jul 22, 2021
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#82
TheLearner said:
Is it correct, that the dead in Ecc does not know what is going on "under the Sun" that is on the earth?
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Records says seeking unfamiliar spirits is sin. Yes they have crossed and have no right to interfere in today's reality
 
TMS

TMS

Senior Member
#83
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
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Australia
#83
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
 
J

jb

Senior Member
#84
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
591
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#84
persistent said:
Should Christians pray for 'people' who have died?
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No, not for people who have died, as they have already met Jesus at their death.

Some Corinthians Christians did this, however, it was an erroneous practice.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#85
#85
jb said:
Some Corinthians Christians did this, however, it was an erroneous practice.
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Interesting you mention 'Corinthian' Christians. Recent reading which mentioned that sect as one of the earliest but I don't recall the wiki article that mentioned them. They were likely based in Corinth which may have been a predominantly 'Roman' colonized region. Or so I read. So what?

Seems that the Romans, Greeks and all various 'settlers' brought religious practices common to their origins and 'mingled' those practices with Christianity. This makes me reflect on Catholic practices throughout history seem to continue 'mingling' Christian with local religions. Or so I have read. This practice of 'mingling' may have been unanticipated. Maybe this 'mingling' was viewed as innocuous and only recognized as insidious from a historical perspective. More grist for the mill...!!!
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#86
Jul 3, 2015
61,137
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#86
persistent said:
Interesting you mention 'Corinthian' Christians. Recent reading which mentioned that sect as one of the earliest but I don't recall the wiki article that mentioned them. They were likely based in Corinth which may have been a predominantly 'Roman' colonized region. Or so I read. So what?

Seems that the Romans, Greeks and all various 'settlers' brought religious practices common to their origins and 'mingled' those practices with Christianity. This makes me reflect on Catholic practices throughout history seem to continue 'mingling' Christian with local religions. Or so I have read. This practice of 'mingling' may have been unanticipated. Maybe this 'mingling' was viewed as innocuous and only recognized as insidious from a historical perspective. More grist for the mill...!!!
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I do not think that the practice of 'mingling' may have been unanticipated. In fact, it goes to the heart
of what Jesus was teaching/warning of in some cases, such as in Matthew 16:6-12. In Luke 12:1, Jesus
also identifies hypocrisy as leaven. Paul also warned against leaven in 1 Corinthians 5:6–8.
Leaven was likened to false teachings which could pervade a person’s heart and mind.

“Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough?”

Elsewhere, leaven represents sin or corruption. For example, the law forbade grain offerings made
with leaven (Leviticus 2:11), and no yeast was allowed to be burned on the altar for any sacrifice.
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
#87
Sep 2, 2020
14,652
5,908
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#87
Magenta said:
I do not think that the practice of 'mingling' may have been unanticipated. In fact, it goes to the heart
of what Jesus was teaching/warning of in some cases, such as in Matthew 16:6-12. In Luke 12:1, Jesus
also identifies hypocrisy as leaven. Paul also warned against leaven in 1 Corinthians 5:6–8.
Leaven was likened to false teachings which could pervade a person’s heart and mind.

“Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough?”

Elsewhere, leaven represents sin or corruption. For example, the law forbade grain offerings made
with leaven (Leviticus 2:11), and no yeast was allowed to be burned on the altar for any sacrifice.
Click to expand...
“Elsewhere, leaven represents sin or corruption. For example, the law forbade grain offerings made
with leaven (Leviticus 2:11), and no yeast was allowed to be burned on the altar for any sacrifice.”

the proper use of the law for a Christian learning from the figures and patterns showing forth sin and seeing them through the gospel
 
P

persistent

Guest
#88
#88
Magenta said:
I do not think that the practice of 'mingling' may have been unanticipated. In fact, it goes to the heart
of what Jesus was teaching/warning of in some cases, such as in Matthew 16:6-12. In Luke 12:1, Jesus
also identifies hypocrisy as leaven. Paul also warned against leaven in 1 Corinthians 5:6–8.
Leaven was likened to false teachings which could pervade a person’s heart and mind.

“Don’t you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough?”

Elsewhere, leaven represents sin or corruption. For example, the law forbade grain offerings made
with leaven (Leviticus 2:11), and no yeast was allowed to be burned on the altar for any sacrifice.
Click to expand...
Only thing is that the writings of New Testament were possibly not readily available to all. Probably was a lot of footwork in getting info from place to place. And when you read of the opposition encountered at places like Ephesus and Lystra and even the debates at Mars Hill indicate possible efforts of locals to 'discourage' materials relevant to this 'Intrusion' on custom. The NT was only single letters at the time of possibly even the 'Corinthians'. Not sure on that as to when that group was first known to exist. Historical matters are difficult to be certain of. Philip Schaff does a good job it seems but when I read his work all the references get me into the weeds.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#89
Jul 3, 2015
61,137
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113
#89
persistent said:
Only thing is that the writings of New Testament were possibly not readily available to all. Probably was a lot of footwork in getting info from place to place. And when you read of the opposition encountered at places like Ephesus and Lystra and even the debates at Mars Hill indicate possible efforts of locals to 'discourage' materials relevant to this 'Intrusion' on custom. The NT was only single letters at the time of possibly even the 'Corinthians'. Not sure on that as to when that group was first known to exist. Historical matters are difficult to be certain of. Philip Schaff does a good job it seems but when I read his work all the references get me into the weeds.
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Leaven represented sin or corruption from the OT law, and Jewish believers would have been aware of this.
Mars Hill is where Paul addressed those who worshipped an unknown God. They were not Jews but Greeks.
 
brighthouse98

brighthouse98

Senior Member
#90
Apr 16, 2015
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#90
Brother Cliff (Luke 9:60-62) There is no point to praying for the dead, your prayers cannot change their final result, I know some Catholics who believe they can but as Jesus said forget it! And as you may well know speaking to the dead is an abomination!!(Lev 20:27) The dead cannot praise the Lord even! (Psalm 115:17-18) The real reason people do this, is that they are thinking about their loss, I understand!! But it has no value I am sorry to say!
 
P

persistent

Guest
#91
#91
brighthouse98 said:
Brother Cliff (Luke 9:60-62) There is no point to praying for the dead, your prayers cannot change their final result, I know some Catholics who believe they can but as Jesus said forget it! And as you may well know speaking to the dead is an abomination!!(Lev 20:27) The dead cannot praise the Lord even! (Psalm 115:17-18) The real reason people do this, is that they are thinking about their loss, I understand!! But it has no value I am sorry to say!
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Thanks for your reply, I was only recently considering praying for the dead but never have done it. And the ones I was thinking of are not even family but people that I have been aquainted with and some I feel a sense of not having done more to interact with them even though I was not a Christian at the time but still get a sense of guilt somewhat.

Particularly this example of a young woman who lived in the same building tried it seems reaching out and while I did help prevent her first suicide attempt I maybe should have concerned myself more but then the Jerk commissioner of police was managing the building and he and I had our disputes and the idiot was acting like her guardian but did nothing to help her when I made suggestions and she ended up hanging herself. I just get an occasional sense of crying and remorse over quite a few of these kinds of things and think maybe I should pray for them.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#92
#92
jb said:
Some Corinthians Christians did this, however, it was an erroneous practice
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The Corinthian letter is available via wiki under Clement of Rome. Not sure whether the article mentions the possible impact the eruption of Vesuvius may have had on peoples perception in those times but these excerpts of the letter gives one something to consider as to what 'understanding' Clement had. The mention of the 'Phoenix' is perplexing. Superstition in 'The Church'? Was Clement truly a Christian?

1Clem1:1
By reason of the sudden and repeated calamities and reverses which
are befalling us, brethren, we consider that we have been somewhat
tardy in giving heed to the matters of dispute that have arisen among
you, dearly beloved, and to the detestable and unholy sedition, so
alien and strange to the elect of God, which a few headstrong and
self-willed persons have kindled to such a pitch of madness that your
name, once revered and renowned and lovely in the sight of all men,
hath been greatly reviled.




1Clem25:2
There is a bird, which is named the phoenix. This, being the only
one of its kind, liveth for five hundred years; and when it hath now
reached the time of its dissolution that it should die, it maketh for
itself a coffin of frankincense and myrrh and the other spices, into
the which in the fullness of time it entereth, and so it dieth.
 
J

jb

Senior Member
#93
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
591
113
#93
jb said:
...

Some Corinthians Christians did this, however, it was an erroneous practice.
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Apologies, this point is not correct, the point that Paul was correcting with the Corinthians was in regards to baptism for the dead (which was erroneous). 1Cor 15v29
 
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