Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?

[ChosenbyHim]

Actually Chosen,

I have not been deceived for I have searched the scriptures daily for years and cannot find a single passage that supports the Pre-Trib Rapture view. You my dear friend are the one deceived. I have found many passages that support the Rapture or "gathering" of saints at the 7th Trumpet which is of course mid-Trib, pre-wrath.

I have challenged you repeatedly to provide one passage that clearly puts the "rapture" BEFORE the Tribulation or as an alternative clearly has two returns of Christ which would allow for the theory of an earlier rapture of the church to occur. You have failed on both counts. Instead you cite passages that don't clearly state either needed fact, you cite works of men, and you use conjecture to twist the Word. It is indisputable that Christ does come and is gathering saints at the last or 7th trumpet. Those passages are clear and do not rely on dispensational or other doctrines of men.

With that, it is clear to me that you are set in your mind and in the face of all the scriptures that have been cited, you will not open your eyes. Unfortunately you fall into the category of the old axiom, "There are none so blind as those who will not see." That does not change that I love you as a brother in Christ and wish you the best.

Plain, I see that you have not answered my two questions. Now if you want to continue this discussion, then please answer those two questions if you be so kind. Thanks.

And if you do answer them, then I can see why it is that you believe the way you do. And then I can show you why it is a big problem, if the rapture would happen at anytime after the time of Jacob's trouble.

Again, here are my two questions to you:

Do you believe in the Eternal Security of a true born again Christian?

And secondly, do you believe that in this dispensation known as the Church Age which we are now living in, do you believe that the way a person gets saved now is by grace through faith, with absolutely no works?

I await your response.

 

[PlainWord]

Plain, I see that you have not answered my two questions. Now if you want to continue this discussion, then please answer those two questions if you be so kind. Thanks.

And if you do answer them, then I can see why it is that you believe the way you do. And then I can show you why it is a big problem, if the rapture would happen at anytime after the time of Jacob's trouble.

Again, here are my two questions to you:

Do you believe in the Eternal Security of a true born again Christian?

And secondly, do you believe that in this dispensation known as the Church Age which we are now living in, do you believe that the way a person gets saved now is by grace through faith, with absolutely no works?

I await your response.

Making dinner. Will respond ASAP. In the meantime, please do the same to my questions below:

1. If not the Rapture of the Saints, please explain the event described in Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thes 2:1-3, Rev 11:15-19. Keep in mind Jesus was talking to believing Jews and fathers of the Church at his Olivet Discourse.

2. Please cite the passage that clearly places the Rapture BEFORE the start of the Tribulation.

3. If you can't cite #2, cite the passage that has the Lord returning and gathering saints on two separate occasions. This must be the same passage so it is clear that there are two separate events of "rapturing" taking place.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Making dinner. Will respond ASAP. In the meantime, please do the same to my questions below:

1. If not the Rapture of the Saints, please explain the event described in Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thes 2:1-3, Rev 11:15-19. Keep in mind Jesus was talking to believing Jews and fathers of the Church at his Olivet Discourse.

2. Please cite the passage that clearly places the Rapture BEFORE the start of the Tribulation.

3. If you can't cite #2, cite the passage that has the Lord returning and gathering saints on two separate occasions. This must be the same passage so it is clear that there are two separate events of "rapturing" taking place.

I will address those questions of yours when you answer first my two questions. Again, I await your response.

 

[PlainWord]

I will address those questions of yours when you answer first my two questions. Again, I await your response.

Ha Ha Ha. I can see where this is going again. You don't want to answer my questions because they present serious problems for you. Rather you want to deflect the serious holes in your theory by examining what I believe in areas not related to the rapture or tribulation. My beliefs concerning eternal security and saved by grace may certainly shape my global views relative to certain things but they in no way change what the Bible actually tells us.

But okay, I am willing to play your game to see where this gets us because I have never received meaningful answers from Pre-tribbers concerning the 3 questions I posed. I'm hoping you can provide insight there where all others have failed.

1. I do believe in eternal security for TRUE believers. I believe the only way you can lose your salvation is if you subsequently commit the unpardonable sin. This sin, of course, TRUE believers wouldn't commit.

Matthew 12:31 [ The Unpardonable Sin ] “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

I believe it is possible to denounce your faith in God. I know of examples of people that have done this, who appeared to be Christians on fire for the Lord but later fall away and totally reject God and their faith. I worry about those people making it to heaven but it will be the Lord who judges, not I.

2. Paul teaches us in Ephesians 2:8-9

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The sinner on the cross who acknowledged Jesus was saved at the last minute without the chance to do any works.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Ha Ha Ha. I can see where this is going again. You don't want to answer my questions because they present serious problems for you. Rather you want to deflect the serious holes in your theory by examining what I believe in areas not related to the rapture or tribulation. My beliefs concerning eternal security and saved by grace may certainly shape my global views relative to certain things but they in no way change what the Bible actually tells us.

Actually eternal security and salvation by grace alone do relate to the rapture when it comes to the Scripture as a whole. Oh yes they do. And you will see why as you read further in my response.

But okay, I am willing to play your game to see where this gets us because I have never received meaningful answers from Pre-tribbers concerning the 3 questions I posed. I'm hoping you can provide insight there where all others have failed.

Well I will do my best to answer your questions Plain.

In fact, what I will do is, I will answer those 3 questions you asked me in a separate post. Just so that I can respond solely to this post of yours.

1. I do believe in eternal security for TRUE believers. I believe the only way you can lose your salvation is if you subsequently commit the unpardonable sin. This sin, of course, TRUE believers wouldn't commit.

Matthew 12:31 [ The Unpardonable Sin ] “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

Well of course a true born again Christian could not commit such blasphemy.


23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit. - Mark 3:23-30 (KJV)


What theologians call the unpardonable sin, is really the unforgivable blasphemy. Because that is what the Bible calls it. That is how our Lord Jesus Christ Himself described it.


Also notice what the Lord Jesus also said:All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:


We are not sons of men Plain. We are sons of God. How do I know this?




3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. - 1 John 3:1 (KJV)



Therefore, we cannot commit this unforgivable blasphemy. It can only be committed by the sons of men. And also think about this too Plain, how can we, being saved and having the Holy Ghost living in us, commit the unforgivable blasphemy?


That is just it. We cannot, it is impossible.

I believe it is possible to denounce your faith in God. I know of examples of people that have done this, who appeared to be Christians on fire for the Lord but later fall away and totally reject God and their faith. I worry about those people making it to heaven but it will be the Lord who judges, not I.

2. Paul teaches us in Ephesians 2:8-9

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The sinner on the cross who acknowledged Jesus was saved at the last minute without the chance to do any works.

Okay now that I see what you believe about eternal security and salvation by grace alone, now I can show you why a rapture after the tribulation cannot work.


I am going to give you two passages that teach something different in terms of salvation, and I want to see Plain if you can reconcile them. Here they are:


4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. - Ephesians 2:4-13 (KJV)



14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? - James 2:14-20 (KJV)

So here we have two passages Plain, that teach two different things in regard to salvation.

One passage teaches faith without works. The other teaches faith with works. So which one are we to believe?

Are you beginning to see the discrepancy here? How do you reconcile these two passages?

The only way to reconcile them is by following the command given in 2 Timothy 2:15:

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

I will give you another example of where this occurs.


13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 then let them which be in Judæa flee into the mountains: 17 let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. - Matthew 24:13-22 (KJV)


3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 and the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:15 because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. - Romans 4:3-17 (KJV)

So again Plain, we see here a discrepancy. One passage, where our Lord Jesus Christ is teachig that for one to be saved, then they must endure unto the end.

While in Roman 4, it says that: to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The Apostle Paul said that he that does not work, but simply believes on the Lord Jesus, then he is saved.

Now Plain, you do see the difference don't you?

If a person has to endure to the end to be saved, that takes work. It involves work, because if you don't endure then you won't be saved. And again to reconcile these two passages is by following 2 Timothy 2:15.

I said this a while ago in my post True Born Again Believers Have Eternal Security, where I stated that there are discrepancies that are clearly in the Scriptures. And what a lot of these discrepancies look like apparent contradictions to people, generally the lost. Now of course they are not contradictions, they just appear to be. And the way that you reconcile these discrepancies is by rightly dividing the word of truth. A Christian has to be dispensational in their Bible Study because if they are not, they will soon begin to get messed up doctrinally. And I cannot begin to stress enough the importance of being dispensational in your Bible studies.

Another thing that happens when you are not dispensational is that you can fall for false teachings like the post millennial and ammillennial heresies. It is that simple.

So now we understand and have established the importance of right division of the Scriptures. In the Church Age, which are now living in, salvation is obtained by simply repenting, and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. No works involved. Now works will come after salvation. But we do not do works to stay saved. We do works because we are saved. Again see Ephesians 2:10.

Now also in the Church Age, a true born again Christian cannot lose their salvation because they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of God and they are baptized into the Body of Christ.

10 that in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 in whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:10-14 (KJV)


26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. - Ephesians 4:26-32 (KJV)

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Ha Ha Ha. I can see where this is going again. You don't want to answer my questions because they present serious problems for you. Rather you want to deflect the serious holes in your theory by examining what I believe in areas not related to the rapture or tribulation. My beliefs concerning eternal security and saved by grace may certainly shape my global views relative to certain things but they in no way change what the Bible actually tells us.

But okay, I am willing to play your game to see where this gets us because I have never received meaningful answers from Pre-tribbers concerning the 3 questions I posed. I'm hoping you can provide insight there where all others have failed.

1. I do believe in eternal security for TRUE believers. I believe the only way you can lose your salvation is if you subsequently commit the unpardonable sin. This sin, of course, TRUE believers wouldn't commit.

Matthew 12:31 [ The Unpardonable Sin ] “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

I believe it is possible to denounce your faith in God. I know of examples of people that have done this, who appeared to be Christians on fire for the Lord but later fall away and totally reject God and their faith. I worry about those people making it to heaven but it will be the Lord who judges, not I.

2. Paul teaches us in Ephesians 2:8-9

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [SUP]9 [/SUP]not of works, lest anyone should boast.

The sinner on the cross who acknowledged Jesus was saved at the last minute without the chance to do any works.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? 18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 and those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 that there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. - 1 Corinthians 12:12-27 (KJV)

Also, we are bone of His Bone, and flesh of His Flesh.


25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband. - Ephesians 5:25-33 (KJV)

So if we are members of the Body of Christ, bone of His bone, and flesh of His flesh. Then we cannot lose our salvation, because Jesus Christ is not going to allow any part of his flesh or bone to be mutilated.

You have to understand the Biblical Doctrine of Eternal Security and that of salvation by Grace to understand the timing of the Rapture.

Okay now Plain, here is another thing that one must understand and that is this, the Rapture of the Church is an essential Bible Doctrine. The Rapture, the timing of it is very important in regard to its relation to Bible Prophecy. Now the Bible teaches that the Rapture can happen at any moment.

Let us look at Scripture to confirm what I just said:

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortalmust put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord. - 1 Corinthians 15:50-58 (KJV)

Now did you see that Plain? The Scripture is very clear that the Rapture will happen in a moment.

It said a moment. Which means any moment. Di you understand Plain, that for the rapture to take place at any moment, that it has to be pre-trib?

Think about this and consider this matter, when the antichrist signs the peace treaty (Daniel 9:27) and the 7 year countdown is started. Wouldn't we be able to time the second coming and the return of Christ?

Let's just say for the sake of argument that your right and that Christians will have to be in the time of Jacob's trouble, how would the imminent rapture work if we can time the return of Christ. Now of course even though we could calculate the precise year that Christ would return, we still would not know the day or the hour. But we would indeed know the year. That is if we had to go through the time of Jacob's trouble.

So again Plain, for the Rapture to be imminent and for it to take place at ANY Moment, it has got to be Pre-Trib. It is that simple.

But here is another important thing to consider as well Plain. The Bible does indeed teach a Pre-Trib. Rapture. Here is why. And this is where comparing Scripture with Scripture works.


11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. - Titus 2:11-15 (KJV)


4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;2 preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8 henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. - 2 Timothy 4:1-8 (KJV)


Now let me ask you Plain, do you suppose that all these teachers out there who are teaching a post trib or a mid trib rapture, do you suppose that they are looking for the blessed hope? Do you suppose that they are looking for the Lord Jesus Christ?

Can I tell you something and please don't get offended. But this is the truth. If you believe in a post trib. Rapture or a Mid Trib. Rapture, well then you are not looking for the Lord Jesus Christ. Do you know who you are looking for? You're looking for the antichrist. Your looking for the New World Order. Your looking for the Mark of The Beast.

That is the truth. How can you be looking for the Lord Jesus Christ if you are constantly worried about having to go through the time of Jacob's trouble?

Again, that is why I emphasized the importance of understanding the Dispensations. The Bible teaches an imminent Rapture which could take place at any moment. But if the Rapture is mid trib. Then it cannot take place at any moment. That is the issue here.

Did you know that the Rapture is a purifying hope Plain?

Check this out:


3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. - 1 John 3:1-3 (KJV)


See? The Rapture is a purifying hope. Now if it is a purifying hope Plain, then what do you think would motivate a Christian to live more holy and a sanctified life?

It would be the Bible Doctrine of the Pre-Trib. Rapture. You see, when a Christian is expecting Jesus Christ to return at any moment, they will start getting sin out of their lives, they will walk more sanctified and holy.

I mean just look at the modern churches these days. Take Rick Warren's church building for an example. Do you think he is really looking for the Lord Jesus Christ? Do you think the people who sit underneath his teaching are?

I mean just study a lot of the modern churches. And when you see how the people are, it is just vexing, I mean no holiness, no separation from the world. No fear of God. Why? Because they stopped looking for Jesus, that's why!

Rick Warren wants to bring Christianity and Islam together, he wants to build world ties. Again, why? Well I believe he is a false prophet but not only that, but it is because his mind is not on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Beware of any ministries that are out there trying to build kingdoms and big buildings. That is another sign that they are not looking for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Ministries that are trying to "fix" the system, the government. It ain't going to happen. America is already finished. The whole world is already set up for the Mark of the Beast system and the New World Order. Everything is already in place. There is no turning back. All we can do now is reach out to lost souls. Because that is the reason why the Lord is tarrying. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

Let me share with you this Scripture again:


11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee. - Titus 2:11-15 (KJV).


Again, what is more motivating for a Christian to live soberly and righteously and in working to purify his life? Is it knowing when Jesus could return?

Or is it expecting the Lord Jesus Christ to return at any moment. Which is what the Pre-Trib. Rapture is. It can happen at any moment. If you are looking for Jesus Christ and are expecting Him to return at any moment, then that will be a great motivator to get sin out of your life and to purify yourself more and more as the day is approaching.

Well I'll leave you with that. And I will answer your questions on the very next response. I have to go to the Library now to meet up with some friends. But I will answer your questions. I just wanted to focus on responding to your answer first. Alright, so please look for my next response, which will be an answer to your three questions. Thanks for your patience.

 

[PlainWord]

Chosen,

It appears we agree on the topic of eternal security - Praise be!! Haha.
I don't have any problems with the supposed conflict re: faith and works as taught in Ephesians and James.

Paul is teaching us the you can't get into heaven with works, it requires FAITH.

James is teaching that Faith without works is dead. He isn't saying you can't get to heaven without works in addition to faith. He's saying that if you have faith but aren't doing the work of God then you are dead to Him in terms of helping His kingdom.

As far as "rightly dividing" is concerned, I agree with this principle. It is how you are dividing it that I disagree with. It is totally necessary to understand who the audience is be it Gentile, Samaritan or Jew. I get that. But concerning His second coming, the two angels that stood next to the disciples as Jesus ascended declared that He will come again. They didn't say HE would come two more times. Therefore you can't divide or discount the time where He comes AFTER the Tribulation to mean he is coming that time just for the Jews and that the Church was taken earlier.

ACTS 1:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, [SUP]11 [/SUP]who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”


You can't use dispensationalism to add another second coming of Christ. That is taking far too much license and is ADDING to the Word. When you study all the passages dealing with the Lord's second coming you find only one time in the future when He comes and that is AFTER the Tribulation, from the Lord's own mouth. You can't say that in the Olivet Discourse he was talking to just Jews because his disciples were Jewish and not talking about the future Church because these particular Jews were the first Christians and if the Lord came back while they were still alive, they would be raptured and not wait for some 3rd coming meant for just the Jews who convert during the Tribulation later.

When Christ comes, He stays, defeats His enemies and reigns for 1,000 years. He doesn't come down and rapture the church then take them back to heaven and wait up there while Satan and his minions have a field day on earth. That isn't dividing the Word, that is making things up. When Christ returns in all His glory, the world recognizes him immediately and worships Him.

 

[PlainWord]

I had forgotten the Acts 1:9 passage as it related to this. Here you have 2 angels telling the disciples that "this same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner..." You pre-tribbers love to quote this passage. But note the audience is the same. The audience are the disciples. Four of the disciples are the audience for the Olivet Discourse. During the Olivet Discourse Jesus told the four that he would return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days. Here in Acts it is told Jesus will come back in the same manner as He left - i.e., in the Clouds.

Coming in the clouds has always been the distinction used by Pre-Tribbers to argue for a Pre Trib Rapture. But since the audience is the same, there can be no dividing of the Word here. Without telling us of two separate comings we MUST assume ONE SECOND COMING. Therefore the only timing we have is AFTER the Tribulation. The Pre-Trib Rapture clearly MUST FALL ON ITS FACE!!!

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Making dinner. Will respond ASAP. In the meantime, please do the same to my questions below:

1. If not the Rapture of the Saints, please explain the event described in Matt 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, 2 Thes 2:1-3, Rev 11:15-19. Keep in mind Jesus was talking to believing Jews and fathers of the Church at his Olivet Discourse.

To answer your first question Plain, I will quote more of the passage in Matthew 24 to get the context of what is going on here.


13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Matthew 24:13-31 (KJV)


In this passage, the Lord Jesus Christ is describing the events that will take place in the time of Jacob's trouble.

The Lord Jesus Christ is not talking about the Rapture here. He is referring of how the earth will be during the time of Jacob's trouble right before His Second Coming and Advent. And note, The Second Coming of Jesus Christ is a different event from the Rapture of the Church. Notice during this time of Jacob's trouble, the Sabbath will be back into effect. And also those Jews which are in Judaea will have to flee into the mountains. Now Plain, what Christian do you know right now or group of Christians do you know who are living in Judaea right now?


Now for the passage in Mark, again, I am going to share more of the passage to get the context of what is being described.


13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. - Mark 13:13-27 (KJV)


Again Plain, what our Lord Jesus Christ is teaching His disciples in this passage are the events that will take place in the time of Jacob's trouble, and what will happen up to His Second Coming and Advent. It lines up well with Matthew 24.

And the abomination of desolation is the antichrist. It is the man of sin.

Here is another reason why we cannot be on this earth in the time of Jacob's trouble. Where is the temple of God now? What is the temple of God in the Church Age?

It is our body.


14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. - 1 Corinthians 6:14-20 (KJV)



So that passage of Scripture clearly teaches that a Christian's body is the temple of the Holy Ghost.

That is another way you can tell that the Lord Jesus Christ is referring to the time of Jacob's trouble. In the time of Jacob's trouble, salvation is different.

The temple of God and holy place in Matthew 24:15 is different than the one in 1 Corinthians 6:19. Another important distinction that must be made.


2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: - 2 Thessalonians 2:1-13 (KJV)


What the Apostle Paul was doing here was comforting the Saints at Thessalonica, because apparently there were false teachers posing as Paul and the other apostles telling the Christians at Thessalonica that they were already in the Tribulation. That is what is happening there Plain. The Saints at Thessalonica thought that they had missed the rapture. And they thought that they were in the time of Jacob's trouble. So the Apostle Paul cleared things up by telling them that the Rapture had not happened yet. You see the Apostle Paul and the other Apostles and the Christians were expecting the Lord Jesus Christ to come back in their lifetime.


3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. - Revelation 11:3-19 (KJV)


Now as far as what I know about this passage of Scripture, I know that once Moses and Elijah are taken up, then once the earthquake hits, then the second woe is past. And what I believe the last four verses (verses 15-19) of this passage are describing here is the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

2. Please cite the passage that clearly places the Rapture BEFORE the start of the Tribulation.

3. If you can't cite #2, cite the passage that has the Lord returning and gathering saints on two separate occasions. This must be the same passage so it is clear that there are two separate events of "rapturing" taking place.

Again Plain, the Rapture and Second Coming are two different events. There is only one Second Advent. The Rapture is where the Lord Jesus Christ comes back in the clouds and translates us up into the air to meet Him.


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (KJV)


Now to show you that the rapture and Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ are two different events, let me now give you Matthew 24 again:



27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Matthew 24:27-31 (KJV)



Now two questions Plain. Where do you see a Resurrection taking place in Matthew 24?

And the signs that are given in Matthew 24:29, how come they are not listed in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18?

 

[PlainWord]

Chosen,

Okay so to summarize your view. All of the passages that provide the timing of the Lord's coming are the "Second Advent" coming, not the Rapture. The Rapture doesn't count as a "coming" because His feet doesn't touch the ground (I heard that one a few times too).

You are saying we must infer that the Church is Raptured because a Christian's body is the Temple of God. You didn't say why the Temple of God can't through the Tribulation so I miss your point here. It seems to me that God's Temple was plundered plenty of times in the OT and of course in AD 70 so clearly God doesn't always protect His temple. Was not the Temple of God dwelling in Paul and His disciples? Yet, all of them (except John) will killed for the Lord's sake. So that pretty much destroys your idea that God must save his "temples."

Please be honest with me Chosen, doesn't it bother you just a little that you can't find a single passage that clearly states the Church will be Raptured BEFORE the tribulation? Doesn't it bother you, just a little, that you can't find a single passage that describes two returns of Christ so that we can know that there are two distinct comings? It bothers me. Ask yourself why it is that every place you see the timing given you attribute it to the "2nd advent" and Not the Rapture. The answer is of course that it would otherwise destroy your theory.

To believe in a separate Rapture for the Church means you MUST by definition believe that God has two separate plans for HIS church and the Nation of Israel. God will spare the Church any and all suffering from the Tribulation but will allow His people, Israel, to be decimated with 2/3 killed, with Jerusalem sacked again. Please go back and read Romans 11 again. God has ONE plan for the Church and the Nation of Israel. We are grafted into them, not the other way around. God doesn't say ANYWHERE that he is going to ungraft the Church branches and rescue us and allow the rest of the olive tree to go through Tribulation. To think the Church has some special status is exactly what Paul warns us about below. This is just common sense.

17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you (Gentile Church), being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.

The verse in blue says it all. Once we (Gentiles) have all (Fullness) come in, then Israel will be saved. God has ONE PLAN for his people. The above clearly tells us this but since it doesn't fit into your theory, you discard it as you do all the other evidence I've shown you.

 

[PlainWord]

Again Plain, the Rapture and Second Coming are two different events. There is only one Second Advent. The Rapture is where the Lord Jesus Christ comes back in the clouds and translates us up into the air to meet Him.


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (KJV)


Now to show you that the rapture and Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ are two different events, let me now give you Matthew 24 again:

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. - Matthew 24:27-31 (KJV)



Now two questions Plain. Where do you see a Resurrection taking place in Matthew 24?

And the signs that are given in Matthew 24:29, how come they are not listed in 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18?

Chosen,

It is common for different passages that discuss the same events to be slightly different. We see this all the time with the Gospels. Just within the Olivet Discourse Luke's version is very different from Matthew or Mark's. So, I don't think you can draw any conclusions from Jesus not specifically using the word, "resurrection." But he does use the concept in this vs from Mat 24:
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

If he is gathering elect from "one end of heaven to the other" Jesus is clearly resurrecting His saints. If you are in heaven, you have died!! Just because he doesn't say "resurrect" that is what he is doing as we see from John 6:40.

Keep in mind that Matthew wrote Matthew and Paul wrote the letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians. Literary differences alone explain why the various accounts are slightly different. The signs are not listed in Thes and Cor because Paul wasn't answering a specific question about the signs as Jesus was. Thanks for leaving me a tap in birdie putt on that question, lol. There are plenty of similarities too:

Both accounts have:

1. A Trumpet Sounding
2. The Lord descending from Heaven
3. Caught up or gathered of saints/his elect in the clouds
4. Voice or sound of Angel(s)

Again my friend, my view is consistent with the plain reading of the Word while your view requires a lot of speculation and conjecture.

I think the whole grafting thing really destroys your theory because Romans 11 is very clear. John 4 also tells us:

22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

 

[Anonimous]

I had forgotten the Acts 1:9 passage as it related to this. Here you have 2 angels telling the disciples that "this same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner..." You pre-tribbers love to quote this passage. But note the audience is the same. The audience are the disciples. Four of the disciples are the audience for the Olivet Discourse. During the Olivet Discourse Jesus told the four that he would return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days. Here in Acts it is told Jesus will come back in the same manner as He left - i.e., in the Clouds.

Coming in the clouds has always been the distinction used by Pre-Tribbers to argue for a Pre Trib Rapture. But since the audience is the same, there can be no dividing of the Word here. Without telling us of two separate comings we MUST assume ONE SECOND COMING. Therefore the only timing we have is AFTER the Tribulation. The Pre-Trib Rapture clearly MUST FALL ON ITS FACE!!!

I have taken the above RED verse to say there is only one coming...not a "rapture" and then another coming seven years later. I believed in the "rapture" for years until I started to study on my own.

 

[GRA]

I have taken the above RED verse to say there is only one coming...not a "rapture" and then another coming seven years later. I believed in the "rapture" for years until I started to study on my own.

"That whole 'studying on your own' thing makes all the difference in the world -- doesn't it...?"

 

[PlainWord]

What happened to my friend Chosen? Is the debate over?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Hey there plain. I apologize for the delay. I have been real busy with work and other things. And no the debate or should I say this discussion is not over just yet.

Let me ask you a question, will the Gospel be different in the time of Jacob's trouble than the Gospel we have now?

Also, what ends the church age?

 

[PlainWord]

Hey there plain. I apologize for the delay. I have been real busy with work and other things. And no the debate or should I say this discussion is not over just yet.

Let me ask you a question, will the Gospel be different in the time of Jacob's trouble than the Gospel we have now?

Also, what ends the church age?

Hey Good buddy. Nice to hear from you. Correct, just a discussion, not a debate.

The Gospel is the Gospel. The Word does not change.

By Church age, I assume you mean the dispensation Church Age? It ends when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in. The end of the age happens at the Day of the Lord, which is AKA the Last Day, see John 6:40, 44, 54. They could very well be the same day, in fact I think they are.

 

[PlainWord]

Hey Chosen,

I pray that you may focus more on what the Word says rather than doctrines taught by man. I don't have a problem with Dispensational teaching per se but when they conflict with the Word of God, then I have a problem, not saying this is happening here.

Now, I have some questions for you and they are multi-part. It will take me a few posts to set up, so please be patient and please answer each, okay?

From 1 Thes 4:

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1. Are we in total agreement that this passage describes the Rapture, the Pre-Trib one that you have been advocating for?

2. Are we in agreement that when the Rapture happens, the dead in Christ arise first?

3. Do we agree that this event is the first resurrection?

4. Are there any other mass resurrections that you know about that happen before the one discussed in 1 Thes 4? (not talking about Lazarus or Jesus, talking big resurrections involving many believers.)

5. What do you think Paul meant when he uses the phrase. "alive and remain?" What do you think we are remaining from?

Please answer these 5 questions and I will follow up. Thanks.

 

[Mammachickadee]

I don't buy into the whole future seven year trib with silent rapture theory.
But if I were a post tribber......I'd laugh at the thought that it's the post tribbers who are loaded with fear..
Post tribbers believe they're going to go through the worst time in the history of this planet.
It takes tons of guts to believe that.
It doesn't take much courage to believe you'll be swooped out just before everything goes downhill.

Exactly. Christians are no better human beings in God's eyes than the atheist, the rapist, the homosexual, etc. Why would we be spared a judgement that was brought about by the first sin... a consequence of a sinful world that we reside in?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Exactly. Christians are no better human beings in God's eyes than the atheist, the rapist, the homosexual, etc. Why would we be spared a judgement that was brought about by the first sin... a consequence of a sinful world that we reside in?

Because we are not appointed to wrath (1 Thess. 5:9). The time of Jacob's trouble is a time where God Almighty pours out His wrath upon the earth. The Body of Christ will be removed from off of the earth before the time of Jacob's trouble begins where God will pour out His wrath upon the earth.