Pre-tribulation raptiure or post-tribulation rapture?

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waynebo59

Guest
The church is not even partially 'removed' at any stage in Revelation until Christ's second coming. It is seen a present on earth throughout Revelation.
So Pauls words about us not enduring the wrath are wrong?
He states clearly "we shall not endure the wrath"
 
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flob

Guest
The greatest victory in the history of the world, as Jesus defeated Satan, and you say it would be of no use to mention it.
Please don't either lie or be senile.
I said no use, in Revelation, to RETELL. Not your altering my word to be the word 'mention.'
Jesus destroyed the Devil (by His blood and resurrection) explicitly in Revelation.
There's no need to rewrite what is plain record in the Gospels and Epistles, figuratively into symbols of Satan being cast out of heaven to come to the earth angry, knowing he has a short time. That is not past------that passage is future.




Satan was defeated at the cross not by some airy fairy battle in the heavens. And the victory is central to Revelation.
Christ is in the heavens, in the Bible; and so is Satan. As in Job, as in Ephesians. Neither one is a fairy. Both are enemies.
Angels aren't fairies. Michael and his angels warring isn't a symbol of Jesus Christ. Jesus is man and God, and 'Another Angel,'
The Angel of Jehovah, the Word of God. What is plain and history in the Gospels isn't symbolized by Michael in Revelation!
There's no need for that. It's definitely not the Bible's way. I'm sorry it's your way, at least temporarily.
The heavens aren't a symbol of the cross. Christ didn't need help from angels winning at the cross. In fact He told Pilate although He could summon a legion of angels, He wouldn't. How do any details fit in with your unnecessary, hyper-internalization, hyper-spiritualization, of the Bible? The Bible doesn't need that kind of 'help.'





He is the prince of the power of the air. But He is not himself ruling there for he has been bound by Christ (Matt 12.28-29). It is his minions who are active in 'the air' (Eph 6.10 ff.). He rules them from the Abyss from which 9.1-11 reveals him as finally released.
So then he is not effectively a prince nor ruling...........anywhere. To the contrary, we human beings must bind what has already been bound. We must apply what Christ accomplished. By faith. It is absurd equally to suggest that Satan is already
limited to the abyss as a matter of all human experience, but that his minions are not. The one RELEASED
(another matter which elsewhere you seem to disparage and dispute--eg Revelation 20) in Revelation 9 is Antichrist. His spirit. (Specifically Nero). Not Satan. In fact Revelation 9:1 matches Revelation 12 with Satan being cast out of heaven by your 'fairy battle' to the earth. Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
 
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popeye

Guest
And what is God the Father doing during all of this, sitting back on His throne in heaven watching, or does He return also?
The biggest clue we have is the wedding dimension. This ONE THING rips everything but pretrib.

Your question is answered in this dimension. (The Jewish father would send the son to fetch the bride BACK TO THEIR HOUSE.)

HELLO????????