Predestination; are fates set in some cases?

[Nehemiah6]

Yes, that's who you're arguing with. Scripture is clear.

What? Scripture is clear that God predestines some for salvation and others for damnation? How can that be when He offers salvation to all mankind, and Christ died for the sins of the whole world?

 

[Lafftur]

BOTH Freewill AND Predestination apply….

There are two Paths which gives us two choices- Life or Death.

The Path of Life is predestined to end in Life - body, soul and spirit.

The Path of Death is predestined to end in Death - body, soul and spirit.

With our free will we get to choose which path - Life or Death.

I choose Jesus Christ, in Him is Life.

 

[John146]

If God was simply reacting to events, how do explain all the scriptures relating to prophesy?

Prophecy are things God is going to make sure will come to pass.

 

[John146]

God acted according to His word and character. Even when God pronounces judgment, His preference is mercy.
Giving only 2 choices as you have doesn't account for the 2 choices God has always given. Just because God didn't explicitly say forgiveness was an option doesn't mean it wasn't.

Forgiveness was an option for God, but he had every intention of destroying them in forty days. My question is, did God know ahead of time that Nineveh would repent, and in turn, he would repent and not destroy them? If you say yes, then you make God a liar.

 

[John146]

BOTH Freewill AND Predestination apply….

There are two Paths which gives us two choices- Life or Death.

The Path of Life is predestined to end in Life - body, soul and spirit.

The Path of Death is predestined to end in Death - body, soul and spirit.

With our free will we get to choose which path - Life or Death.

I choose Jesus Christ, in Him is Life.

Every passage containing the word "predestined" has to do with the future redemption of the body for the believer. Not one has to do with one's salvation. Not one.

 

[Cameron143]

Forgiveness was an option for God, but he had every intention of destroying them in forty days. My question is, did God know ahead of time that Nineveh would repent, and in turn, he would repent and not destroy them? If you say yes, then you make God a liar.

I understand. And that is a logical conclusion if you believe the binary choices you gave. But if those are the only 2 choices, why send Jonah?
What I am suggesting is that inherent in God's judgment is forgiveness. Jonah himself recognized this. It's the reason Jonah didn't want to go.

 

[DJT_47]

Prophecy are things God is going to make sure will come to pass.

And how is that? By watching real time and reacting because he can't see into the future and is bound by the same time line that binds us (which thing"time", he created by the way)? Goodbye, believe what you like.

 

[John146]

I understand. And that is a logical conclusion if you believe the binary choices you gave. But if those are the only 2 choices, why send Jonah?
What I am suggesting is that inherent in God's judgment is forgiveness. Jonah himself recognized this. It's the reason Jonah didn't want to go.

Jonah didn't want to go because he knew if he preached the message of destruction, there is a chance that Nineveh would believe it, repent, and in turn, God would be merciful and not do what he said he would do. Jonah knew this about God.

 

[Cameron143]

Jonah didn't want to go because he knew if he preached the message of destruction, there is a chance that Nineveh would believe it, repent, and in turn, God would be merciful and not do what he said he would do. Jonah knew this about God.

Right, because inherit in God's judgment is His forgiveness. That's why I believe the binary choice you gave earlier wasn't accurate.

 

[John146]

Right, because inherit in God's judgment is His forgiveness. That's why I believe the binary choice you gave earlier wasn't accurate.

There was no declaration from God saying, if you don’t repent I’ll destroy you. It was declaration of you are being destroyed in forty days. God changed his mind based upon Nineveh’s response to his word.

 

[John146]

God told Hezekiah that he’s going to die. Hezekiah prayed to the Lord. The Lord responded and Hezekiah lived another 15 years.

1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came unto him, and said unto him, Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live.
2 Then Hezekiah turned his face toward the wall, and prayed unto the Lord,
3 And said, Remember now, O Lord, I beseech thee, how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
4 Then came the word of the Lord to Isaiah, saying,
5 Go, and say to Hezekiah, Thus saith the Lord, the God of David thy father, I
have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.

 

[Cameron143]

There was no declaration from God saying, if you don’t repent I’ll destroy you. It was declaration of you are being destroyed in forty days. God changed his mind based upon Nineveh’s response to his word.

I guess we'll agree to disagree. But thanks for taking time to respond.

 

[Magenta]

I guess we'll agree to disagree. But thanks for taking time to respond.

It should be said that it has always been God's plan to forgive upon repentance.

Therefore He did not change His mind about anything. He did what He will always do.

 

[Cameron143]

It should be said that it has always been God's plan to forgive upon repentance.

Therefore He did not change His mind about anything. He did what He will always do.

That's what's i was trying to say so inarticulate. That's why I don't believe there were only the 2 choices.

 

[Mem]

That's what's i was trying to say so inarticulate. That's why I don't believe there were only the 2 choices.

You can die by the law, or you cannot go to heaven by the law or
You can live by grace or not go to hell by grace or
You cannot die by grace, or you cannot live by the law or
You can die to the law and live by grace.... did I cover all the options?

 

[Cameron143]

You can die by the law, or you cannot go to heaven by the law or
You can live by grace or not go to hell by grace or
You cannot die by grace, or you cannot live by the law or
You can die to the law and live by grace.... did I cover all the options?

That's a question for early in the day after a couple of cups of coffee. Do you have a later in evening veging out version of the question?
Actually, this is a Magenta question. She's a stickler for detail. But I will commend you on the depth and scope of your question.

 

[Magenta]

Actually, this is a Magenta question. She's a stickler for detail.

And persnickety, too! .

 

[Mem]

I wanted to post this observation after looking over Psalm 92: A song for the Sabbath...
But I lost the exact spot where I thought to place it.

"But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil." v.10

Just noticing the nuance, here, relative to that of the commandment "thou shalt"...

And this is the conclusion of the chapter...

Mine eye also shall see my desire on mine enemies, and mine ears shall hear my desire of the wicked that rise up against me. v.11
The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon. v. 12
Those that be planted in the house of the LORD shall flourish in the courts of our God. v. 13
They shall still bring forth fruit in old age; they shall be fat and flourishing; v. 14 (BSB says, "healthy and green they will remain" ...And now I remember I looked up "green" prompted in search for the distinction b/w those branches cut off and those that are pruned to produce more fruit but, anyway, looking here...).
To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him. v. 15

The entire chapter is a praise with the KJV heading, "How Great Are Your Works."

 

[Evmur]

1:5 KJV “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.”

The answer is YES but it is very hard to prove. Predestination touches on truths in a way that most people cannot fathom nor would be willing to accept, though the Bible is really all about predestination.

It's about - who is forever - and who is not forever. I think that what happened in rebellion sealed many fates; and that people today, as we know them, must just simply live it out; else the below Scriptures do not seem fair:

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John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (KJV)
John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (KJV)

The irony.
That there are some that were to be born into their fate is clear:

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Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. KJV

My opinion, drawn from the totality of the Scriptures; and admittedly not able to be documented by any one Scripture alone, as would have been desired; is that certain were fated to work for satan, and certain were destined to work for God; and between these two groups lies the overwhelming majority of people who have choice and free will.
Those that I refer to as satan's, would be the Kenites; and those that I refer to as God's, would be what we (sometimes confusingly) refer to as God's Elect.

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NOTE: Please do not confuse "God's Elect" with all Christians. And please understand that many times all Christians are referred to as the Elect, but that within that group is a body of individuals that were afore-ordained to work for God.


Many people read the scriptures wherein it mentions "the Elect" and "the Elect Lady," etc., and suppose that this is not speaking of the general body of Christians, but only of a sub-group. This is an error. All Christians are Elect, but there is a sub-group of these Elect that is ordained from before the world began to work the purpose of God. The difficulty is in how to know when it is speaking of the main group or when it is speaking of the sub-group.

The bottom line is that God is fair; and that if there are some "who were before of old ordained to this condemnation", and there are, then it is because of what they did in the rebellion of the First Earth Age. What is the condemnation? Observe as the Master tells us:

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John 3:17-21
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. KJV
Jude 4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. KJV

Ephesians 4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

To arrive at the true meaning of this expression, we must note that there are two words translated "foundation" in the New Testament:

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(1) themelios, and​

(2) katabole.​

The Noun, themelios,

occurs in Luke 6:48-49, 14:29, Acts 16:26, Romans 15:20,1Corinthians 3:l0-12, Ephesians 2:20, 1Timothy 6:19, 2Timothy 2:19, Hebrews 6:1, 11:10, Revelation 21:14,19. It is never used of the world (kosmos) or the earth (ge). The corresponding Verb (themelioo) occurs in Matthew 7:25, Luke 6:48, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 1:10 and 1Peter 5:10. The verb is only once used of the earth (ge). Hebrews 1:10.​

A comparison of all these passages will show that these are proper and regular terms for the English words "to found", and "foundation".​

The Noun, katabole,

occurs in Matthew 13:35, 25:34, Luke 11:50, John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, Hebrews 4:3, 9:26 , 11:11, 1Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8, 17:8 and the corresponding Verb (kataballo) occurs in 2Corinthians 4:9, Hebrews 6:1 and Revelation 12:10.​

A comparison of all these passages (especially 2Corinthians 4:9and Revelation 12:10) will show that kataballo and katabole are not the proper terms for founding and foundation, but the correct meaning is casting down, or overthrow.​

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Evmur replied

Predestination is to be conformed to the image of God's Son, that's a perfect jewel. we all wanna be like Jesus.. Again we are chosen in Christ before all worlds began to be a people for praise of God's glorious praise, again wonderful, we all wanna tell about Jesus.

that's US, the church, the people of God, We are to be a city set upon a hill WHY? to exclude everybody? no but that men and women hungry and lost may find food and shelter.

Others can and will be saved.

The church has got it wrong and has from the early Catholic days ... the last judgement is always portrayed as the judgement unto damnation ... but the scripture does not say so.

Who believes in the rapture?

If you believe in the rapture of the church 1, 000 years before the last judgement, "so shall we ever be with the Lord" then you must know that we the church can never be subjects to the last judgement. It's impossible. Yet we see some will gain an inheritance.

The wicked will be turned into hell.

Blessed be those who hunger and thirst for righteousness for theirs is the kingdom of God
blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.

 

[Evmur]

I don't know why it came out as it did ... sorry, but I did signified which portion was my reply.