Predestination I think not.

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garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,888
928
113
#21
1 Corinthians 14:33) For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

I believe in the Holy Trinity
I do not believe in the Holy Trinity
I believe Jesus is God
I do not believe Jesus is God
I believe in the Young Earth
I believe in the Old Earth
I believe Grace Only
I do not believe Grace Only
I believe we should Tithe
I do not believe we should Tithe
I believe water baptism is for salvation
I do not believe water baptism is for salvation
I believe women can not have authority over men or be Pastors/Leaders
I believe women can have authority over men or be Pastors/Leaders
I believe Once Saved Always Saved
I believe that God will never forsake us, but we can forsake Him
I believe in Predestination
I believe in Free Will
I believe the Holy Spirit is the Comforter promised to come to us and instructing us in all things
I believe the Written Word (Bible) is the Comforter sent to instruct us in all things
I believe we should observe the celebration of Foot Washing
I do not believe we should not observe the celebration of Foot Washing
I believe the New Earth will be our eternal home
I believe Heaven will be our eternal home
I believe the Ten Commandments are still in effect for the Church
I do not believe the Ten Commandments are still in effect for the Church
I believe Pre........ Post ......... A ........ millennial
I believe we must obey the Commandments of Christ
I do not believe we must obey the Commandments of Christ
I believe we should baptize "in the name of Jesus."
I believe we should baptize "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

.............and on, and on, and on, and..............

SO: If God is not the Author of Confusion, why did He predestine so many people to believe so many different things, which has resulted in so very much confusion within the Church?

He is still teaching them . The creature could never be above his master or call himself equal . All men die still learning.

Even the Son of man Jesus when call good master as a infallible, fleshly mediator between man seen and God not seen said. . . only God is good. He would not stand in that Holy place .One is our master in heaven we are to call no man confused because they are not God.

Set your teaching on him he always has more we can learn.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
25,120
2,630
113
#22
Sorry, I miss how your comment reflects/refers to mine.......

My point is:

God is not the Author of Confusion! Thus.........He WOULD NOT predestine His children to have such varied understandings of Scripture. We reach those all by our lonesome!

Meaning, free will, the ability to choose what we think Scripture means is how so many misunderstandings occur.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
25,120
2,630
113
#23
GOd does not presdestine people to believe! Lol. Anyone who has that idea is talking a load of nonsense. Its clear that people make a choice whether to believe the gospel or not. jesus could be in your living room and having dinner with you right in front of your eyes and you STILL would have a choice whether to believe Him or not.
Amen.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
3,534
536
113
#24
Anyone can read the word and create there own God. Sad but true. And that's been a practice since the garden.
Gods thinking and ways of doing things are far beyond our comprehension but man insist on having the answers.
Knowing the end from the beginning we can't refute that God knows the exact number of the harvest it's his design.
The new Jerusalem is built to specific specks.
But let me throw something at you saints, most here believe Jesus is God in the flesh and that he was equal with God so says the scriptures. Yet Jesus did not know the time of his second coming......ponder that.....yet he is the alpha and Omega and all things written are written about him.
I'd be very interested to see your comments on how you would answer this mystery.
Is the second coming of Christ the act of God alone and not a triune decision?

Here's another example....most of us agree that the Holy Spirit our helper sent is for the establishment of the church (bride) of Christ but yet Paul says he will be removed and the restraint of evil will be lifted which ushers in the man of sin.
Saints with the pre-trib view have no problem with this those on post trib have a problem how is the church to function without it's helper?? Are we left to our own devices?
Jesus said without me you can do nothing.

Some doctrines are Spurs of man's way of reason and thinking....the finite taking on the infinite...it would do us all good to step back and be that berean we are called to be.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
3,534
536
113
#25
Anyone can read the word and create there own God. Sad but true. And that's been a practice since the garden.
Gods thinking and ways of doing things are far beyond our comprehension but man insist on having the answers.
Knowing the end from the beginning we can't refute that God knows the exact number of the harvest it's his design.
The new Jerusalem is built to specific specks.
But let me throw something at you saints, most here believe Jesus is God in the flesh and that he was equal with God so says the scriptures. Yet Jesus did not know the time of his second coming......ponder that.....yet he is the alpha and Omega and all things written are written about him.
I'd be very interested to see your comments on how you would answer this mystery.
Is the second coming of Christ the act of God alone and not a triune decision?

Here's another example....most of us agree that the Holy Spirit our helper sent is for the establishment of the church (bride) of Christ but yet Paul says he will be removed and the restraint of evil will be lifted which ushers in the man of sin.
Saints with the pre-trib view have no problem with this those on post trib have a problem how is the church to function without it's helper?? Are we left to our own devices?
Jesus said without me you can do nothing.

Some doctrines are Spurs of man's way of reason and thinking....the finite taking on the infinite...it would do us all good to step back and be that berean we are called to be.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,888
928
113
#26
The unseen understanding in that parable is according to the signified language of Revelation, addressed in the opening statement.

The father of lies has no form...those are simply metaphors used in that parable.

It is simply saying the father of lies is coming in full glory and battle array .Having the face of man and the hair of woman is one of the representative glory in describing our relationship with God in a ceremonial law .

Here the father of lies is coming as the counterfeit god. The spirit of lies riding on a horse.His armor of iron was earthly inspired by the devil . Continuing to describe the father of lies he lies as false prophecy it is shown as poison of a scorpion that poison will not harm those the believer.

Its when those try to literalize the signified meaning in that parable that Hollywood brings the imagination of ones heart into the picture. There someone's dream can become true.

Revelation 9:6-8 King James Version (KJV)And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
149
44
28
#27
BTW: In my opinion only I suspect, Predestination is the Father of OSAS. Folks who believe in Calvin's Teachings, believe they were saved from "the beginning" and nothing can change that, or keep them from Heaven. OSAS'ers believe that once saved, there is nothing that can keep them from Heaven. So, basically, OSAS'ers turn into Calvinists once they are saved. OSAS is Calvin Light I suppose........

:)
If it is your option are belief that God did not or does not know the names of every soul born into this world and which of these souls are or will enter His Kingdom then let me introduce you to my God. His Sovereignty is without approval.My God has never learned anything. For those who would make a religion out of predestination its not likely that you have the mind of God.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,888
928
113
#28
Predestination is talking about Jesus. Its not talking about anyone else. I think people get it confused and think oh it must mean me as a believer.

Not so. GOds plan from the foundation of the world was for redemption of mankind, and to that end He sent Jesus. People did know, from all that time before Jesus was sent, that there had to be a Messiah. He came at the appointed time to set up a Kingdom at the appointed time. And he was sent to a particular group of people God had chosen, the Israelites. They were to be his peculiar (special) people, holy and set apart

But because not all believed, and rejected Him the way was open for the gentiles to believe. The differece is the Gentiles, who were not originally chosen, did not have the lineage or the language, actually had the heart to believe more than the Israelites when they heard the gospel!

GOd does not presdestine people to believe! Lol. Anyone who has that idea is talking a load of nonsense. Its clear that people make a choice whether to believe the gospel or not. jesus could be in your living room and having dinner with you right in front of your eyes and you STILL would have a choice whether to believe Him or not.
Mankind was not created with a blank memory but one subject to do the will of another. The written law of God. Mankind fell when they refused to obey the will of God in exchange for the will of the things seen the serpent. From a fortress to a prison (the gates of hell) having become subject to the will of the father of lies in bondage to sin

You have a choice to not beleive. But to beleive is proven by its actions . If any man has not the Spirit of Christ working in them to both will, (the vision) and the power to perform it working it out, then they can expect to be no pleasure coming from God. He informs us as one of the better things that do accompany salvation .He will not forget the love we have shown by the good works he works in us that we offer towards His name or power to move us..

If we deny him in unbelief he cannot deny himself as Abba father has begun the good work in us he promises to finish it to the end. (Philippian 1:6. )

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:philipians2:12

Without murmurring. Its like he knew some would resist I idea of Him freeing up our will as a promise to the end helping them to become more humble as he increases and we decrease

Free will is to do the will of the unseen father and finish it as he strengthens us to make it possible. The kind of strengthening food the disciples at first knew not of . Taste like Bit-O-Honey. Providing the humility not to eat too much. I have no control when it comes to sweets .LOL

John 4:31-34 King James Version (KJV) In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of. Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him (freed will) that sent me, and to finish his work.
.
 

Leastamongmany

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2019
3,270
1,247
113
Usa
#29
ON ,HOW WONDERFUL WOULD IT HAVE BEEN TO SIT AT JESUS FEET,TO WALK AND COMUINE WITH HIM,AND RECIEVE THE TRUE WORDS HE SPOKE OF HIS FATHER! THERE WOULD BE NO TRANSLATIONS,INTERPETIONS, OR COMMENTARIES NEEDED......IT WOULD BE LOVELY TO JUST ABSORB!
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,587
1,802
113
#30
If it is your option are belief that God did not or does not know the names of every soul born into this world and which of these souls are or will enter His Kingdom then let me introduce you to my God. His Sovereignty is without approval.My God has never learned anything. For those who would make a religion out of predestination its not likely that you have the mind of God.
Foreknowledge:


What is described above is foreknowledge.
Foreknowledge is simply to have knowledge of things, and to have that knowledge of things before they occur.

There is a problem here: knowledge is causally impotent.
That means knowledge doesn't actually CAUSE anything, it doesn't DO anything... information is just information.

So having foreknowledge does not actually CAUSE anything.
That is logically impossible, knowledge is causally impotent.

However, the Calvinist could reasonable argue like this:
"God has predetermined everything, and that act of predetermining leads to his naturally foreknowing everything"... that works.
But we can't really say it in the reverse, "God foreknows, and the foreknowing causes everything"... that doesn't really work.

So for the Calvinist, it would seem more sound to stick directly to proofs for predeterminism.
And foreknowledge is not one of those proofs.
Foreknowledge doesn't constitute a proof for determinism.


So... you could reasonably argue that predeterminism causes foreknowledge, but you can't really argue that foreknowledge causes predeterminism... as knowledge has no logical ability to cause anything.

I realize all my Calvinist friends have heard this, but it doesn't really seem to work.
Your favorite pastor may be a great guy, but that doesn't mean he has to be 100% correct on every single thing he's ever said.
He's still a good guy.
To recap: it isn't just that knowledge DOES NOT cause anything, it's that knowledge CANNOT cause anything.
The knowledge of a future event has no power to cause the event... knowledge has no causative power.
We can easily demonstrate this, and give proofs for this.
It's provable.
Knowledge has no causative power.

There are lots of better arguments for Calvinism.

Hope this all made sense.
..


..
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,587
1,802
113
#31
A bit more:

The stuff I said previously hinges primarily on two logical principles that can get confusing:

A. A thing can be logically prior without being chronologically prior... the two aren't the same.
This can get very weird and confusing.
However, it's considered a very rudimentary principle of logic.
B. Knowledge is causally impotent... and if it has no causal power, then it has no causal power.... regardless of WHEN that knowledge came into being.
This too can be confusing... until we think about it a bit.


I realize I'm so boring I put everyone into a coma...
sorry.
:)
..
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
149
44
28
#32
A bit more:

The stuff I said previously hinges primarily on two logical principles that can get confusing:

A. A thing can be logically prior without being chronologically prior... the two aren't the same.
This can get very weird and confusing.
However, it's considered a very rudimentary principle of logic.
B. Knowledge is causally impotent... and if it has no causal power, then it has no causal power.... regardless of WHEN that knowledge came into being.
This too can be confusing... until we think about it a bit.


I realize I'm so boring I put everyone into a coma...
sorry.
:)
..
Dear maxwell: God has never projected Himself into humanity through logic. His presence and His knowledge comes only through faith.
How can we apply logic to things we cannot see? Indeed how can we apply logic to anything that applies to God and mans purpose in this earth?
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,587
1,802
113
#33
Dear maxwell: God has never projected Himself into humanity through logic. His presence and His knowledge comes only through faith.
How can we apply logic to things we cannot see? Indeed how can we apply logic to anything that applies to God and mans purpose in this earth?
I think you may have an inaccurate understanding of what logic actually is, as well as where it comes from.

God Bless.

.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,587
1,802
113
#34
More:

Logic & Faith

You may also have a well-intended but less than accurate view of faith.

The concept of faith is commonly misunderstood and mischaracterized.

FAITH:
Faith is never the act of believing something blindly with no reason; biblically, faith just means to believe what God says.
A good definition of faith is: " TO TRUST IN SOMETHING YOU HAVE GOOD REASON TO BELIEVE."

In Scripture the concept of "faith" is never to be "blind" or "ignorant."

I think that's a concept that really came out of the 19th century, and it's still affecting christian culture to this day.

LOGIC:
Biblically, God never tells us to be ignorant or irrational... and if you study scripture carefully, you'll find that God is very "orderly" and logical. God is very orderly, he is very methodical, he is very adept at planning. He is even the very creator of our rational minds, so that we can think carefully and orderly. God even commands us, in scripture, to be "orderly", and in other places he talks about prioritizing, planning, and even time management. These things all rely upon logic, and cannot exist without it.

Language cannot even exist without logic... without logic things like syntax cannot even occur, and words would be meaningless.

God created language, and without logic language cannot even exist... let alone be understood.

Since God uses logic in all he does, and in all he creates, and He commands us in scripture to do countless things which require logic to do... it's very likely you just have an inaccurate understand of logic, and of what it actually is.

..
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
149
44
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#35
I think you may have an inaccurate understanding of what logic actually is, as well as where it comes from.

God Bless.
.
The type of logic you express is an enemy to faith. Your like Nicodemus "how can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Intellect is possibly the single biggest stumbling block to new Christians. I speak from experience.
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
9,432
5,880
113
#36
The type of logic you express is an enemy to faith. Your like Nicodemus "how can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Intellect is possibly the single biggest stumbling block to new Christians. I speak from experience.
Not intellect, it is the biases, presuppositions and perceptions that exist within the intellect/mind/heart.
 
Mar 14, 2011
63,335
9,857
113
#37
Foreknowledge:


What is described above is foreknowledge.
Foreknowledge is simply to have knowledge of things, and to have that knowledge of things before they occur.

There is a problem here: knowledge is causally impotent.
That means knowledge doesn't actually CAUSE anything, it doesn't DO anything... information is just information.

So having foreknowledge does not actually CAUSE anything.
That is logically impossible, knowledge is causally impotent.

However, the Calvinist could reasonable argue like this:
"God has predetermined everything, and that act of predetermining leads to his naturally foreknowing everything"... that works.
But we can't really say it in the reverse, "God foreknows, and the foreknowing causes everything"... that doesn't really work.

So for the Calvinist, it would seem more sound to stick directly to proofs for predeterminism.
And foreknowledge is not one of those proofs.
Foreknowledge doesn't constitute a proof for determinism.


So... you could reasonably argue that predeterminism causes foreknowledge, but you can't really argue that foreknowledge causes predeterminism... as knowledge has no logical ability to cause anything.

I realize all my Calvinist friends have heard this, but it doesn't really seem to work.
Your favorite pastor may be a great guy, but that doesn't mean he has to be 100% correct on every single thing he's ever said.
He's still a good guy.
To recap: it isn't just that knowledge DOES NOT cause anything, it's that knowledge CANNOT cause anything.
The knowledge of a future event has no power to cause the event... knowledge has no causative power.
We can easily demonstrate this, and give proofs for this.
It's provable.
Knowledge has no causative power.

There are lots of better arguments for Calvinism.

Hope this all made sense.
..


..
Lets put it more like this

Gods sovereignty

He chose Pharoah, Because he foreknew pharoah would do by his own free will what God needed him to do.


While your correct is saying foreknwoledge does not CAUSE events, It can and doea (and literally did ( cause decisions to be made. Based on gods knowing not only what will happen. But who will do what he needs to be done.

God chose Judas KNOWING he would reject him, and also would turn him in to the jews. Because that was his plan. If judas would not have done this, God would have chosen someone else.
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
149
44
28
#38
Not intellect, it is the biases, presuppositions and perceptions that exist within the intellect/mind/heart.
Biases, presuppositions, and perceptions are the work of the intellect.
 

UnderGrace

Senior Member
May 8, 2016
9,432
5,880
113
#39
Biases, presuppositions, and perceptions are the work of the intellect.
I have met many people with low intellect that were far more biased and unmovable in their beliefs even with solid evidence to the contrary than people with higher intellect.

But I am not sure if when you state "intellect" you mean level of cognitive functioning (intelligence) or just intellect as part of a person apart from intelligence.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,095
1,532
113
#40
Predestination is talking about Jesus. Its not talking about anyone else. I think people get it confused and think oh it must mean me as a believer.

Not so. GOds plan from the foundation of the world was for redemption of mankind, and to that end He sent Jesus. People did know, from all that time before Jesus was sent, that there had to be a Messiah. He came at the appointed time to set up a Kingdom at the appointed time. And he was sent to a particular group of people God had chosen, the Israelites. They were to be his peculiar (special) people, holy and set apart

But because not all believed, and rejected Him the way was open for the gentiles to believe. The differece is the Gentiles, who were not originally chosen, did not have the lineage or the language, actually had the heart to believe more than the Israelites when they heard the gospel!

GOd does not presdestine people to believe! Lol. Anyone who has that idea is talking a load of nonsense. Its clear that people make a choice whether to believe the gospel or not. jesus could be in your living room and having dinner with you right in front of your eyes and you STILL would have a choice whether to believe Him or not.
Agree. It was Jesus who was predestined to save the world because they (trinity) foreknew what would occur.

I don’t agree with free will. At either end of eternity will be a destiny. Either eternally with God, or with satan. If we had free will, there would be no consequences in eternity.

Free choice? I used to think yes. But, we have promises concerning our seed and our seeds seed, plus the promise that is to our house and all afar. So now I’m not sure.

I agree that we will know when our glass is not dark.