Predestination is misunderstood...

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
False dichotomy. Those are not the only two options. Another option is to read the Bible for yourself and just share with others what you see in a passage and listening to them as to what they truly see in it, and comparing perspectives to decide for yourself what the most persuasive message of the passage is so far, and to be open to learning more and perhaps changing opinions. I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I don't even know what Arminius taught. I base my understanding of scripture on what the Bible says, not on what some mere man says.

So you lean on your own understanding to interpret the Bible, while God has appointed Sheppard's to interpret the scriptures for us Sheep.

Why wouldn't you take advantage of the interpretations of highly educated theologians. Private Bible study's are not recommended by most Churches, it's best to study in a group with at least a few elders to guide us.

God doesn't give everyone the gift of discernment, to interpret the scriptures. He gives that gift to those He appoints to be Shepherds. Private interpretation is like taking the law into your own hands.

The Bible is packed with deep theology, it's not possible to understand it correctly if we read it like an ordinary book. It takes many years of diligent study to become a Shepherd, who is equipped to teach others.

I suppose I should have mentioned trusting the Holy Spirit to guide my reading, thinking and understanding. But I was responding to a post which was dealing only with the alleged theologies of Arminius and Calvin, and did not include the Holy Spirit. I am interested in the perspectives of other bible readers, but I want to see whether their reasons for their perspectives stack up with scripture, or are importing presuppositions that do not derive directly from scripture.
I am not about to hand over my personal relationship with God to someone who is no more or less reliable at interpreting scripture than I am. Aeonous life is a relationship with God and Jesus (John 17:3) not a relationship with some other man and His teaching. I won't be selling my aeonous life for a mess of potage.

 

[Magenta]

First..

Is God's nature revealed in the Bible?

Is He omniscient?
Is He all powerful?

Is He eternal, having no beginning nor end?

I take it you are not able to answer the question.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

First..

Is God's nature revealed in the Bible?

Is He omniscient?
Is He all powerful?

Is He eternal, having no beginning nor end?

Because he's all theese things does it further your understanding of your trading insults and disregard for scripture.

Your talking to a load of Calvinists who follow mainly a doctrine of one person,

Which does have truths,

(However)
Where as my knowledge of God's will and predestination has been experienced first hand for over 15 years through living it,, where I have studied every aspect of scripture in this field, left right and back to front. because of my experience, I have spoke to God more than you will ever know in this field,

And so far the Calvinists in this thread has rejected dozens of accurate understandings put to them,

I do believe with all my heart, Calvinists have a wonderful insight into many aspects of will, and do walk with God. And I respect the God that they serve.

But in one or two fields, there knowledge is clearly in error.

And I have yet to meet one who has had the real life experience as I have.

Until I do I won't find agreement in certain areas, I know this.

But at least I'm going to still talk it through with them and fully respect there walk and the God that they serve.

Where as you are going to get all legalistic.

 

[PaulThomson]

Romans 9:10-13 should confirm the Calvinist position. It clearly states that God hates some who haven't been born yet and likewise loves some who haven't been born.

And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

There are around 100 other verses which confirm the same bible doctrine.

I don't see how you can sit on the fence when faced with the question of how one is saved. That question has divided the Church into two main camps. One (Arminianism man centered works based) teaches that we are saved by obeying the gospel by responding to it with repentance and faith.

The other (Calvinism teaches a God centered grace based salvation) not by works. We believe God choses us and Armenians believe they choose God. There's no valid position whereby we can reject both views, as there's no Bible doctrine to support such a position. You would need to show where the Bible verses which say that a man can be saved on his own terms.

What does Gen 25:23 say is in Rebekah's womb?

When was it written " Jacob I have loved; but Esau I have hated"? Mal. 1 :1-4

Who was God referring to as Jacob and as Esau in Malachi.

When and why did God start hating Esau?

Are you still holding to "Romans 9:10-13 should confirm the Calvinist position. It clearly states that God hates some who haven't been born yet and likewise loves some who haven't been born" ?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Not at all, it was said the same way.

Adam sinned, God comes in like He doesn't know and asks questions.

Cain sins and God comes in like He doesn't know and asks questions.

If anything, it proves God is the SAME all of the time.

no Cains sin was after the fall and it was said in a totally different light, and you know it sir.

I aint.got time to go through it right now, but even if I was to, you would just reject it,..

You first tried to reject it with over 3 separate opinions before finding this one.

And so far you have failed to answer the suggestion, or discuss the original suggestion.

And you wouldn't even suggest the suggestion in the first place.

You knew what it was.

 

[PaulThomson]

Again you misstate my position, even after I went to some length to explain it. People can be persuaded of the truth of the gospel, recognize they are sinners, and even experience an earthly sorrow as a result of a convicting conscience. None of that will result in them being born again. That alone is the work of God.

If God will not despise a broken and contrite spirit (Ps. 51:17), do you think God could refuse to regenerate someone who hears the gospel with their natural ears and is sorry for their sins with their natural conscience and puts trust in Jesus as Saviour with their natural faith before they are regenerated?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

no Cains sin was after the fall and it was said in a totally different light, and you know it sir.

I aint.got time to go through it right now, but even if I was to, you would just reject it,..

You first tried to reject it with over 3 separate opinions before finding this one.

And so far you have failed to answer the suggestion, or discuss the original suggestion.

And you wouldn't even suggest the suggestion in the first place.

You knew what it was.

You don't need time.
God is the SAME yesterday, today, forever

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
To think that "knowing the end from the beginning" must mean "knowing every detail of the end from the beginning" is not logical.
To think that God never knew something is illogical, is itself illogical.

It was illogical? To tell Abraham who was a 99 years old, and Sarah who was almost 90, that they were going to have a child?
Abraham believed it.... by faith.

Yes. The expression "Knowing the end from the beginning" is not limited to meaning having perfect exhaustive knowledge of all details regarding the end.

God is powerful. He is certainly able to make a 99 year old woman conceive a child.

 

[PaulThomson]

He knows what is going to happen before it ever happens.

How far in advance do you believe He knows it? Based on what scriptures do you believe this?

 

[Magenta]

God is powerful. He is certainly able to make a 99 year old woman conceive a child.

True, but I believe Sarah was only 90 when she conceived and bore Isaac. 99 is closer to the age Abraham was when Isaac was born.

 

[Cameron143]

If God will not despise a broken and contrite spirit (Ps. 51:17), do you think God could refuse to regenerate someone who hears the gospel with their natural ears and is sorry for their sins with their natural conscience and puts trust in Jesus as Saviour with their natural faith before they are regenerated?

No,for 2 reasons.
1. They must be born from above.
2. It is an earthly sorrow that only has them considering the consequences to themselves, and not the offense to a holy God. It doesn't rise to the level of biblical contrition. It is a Godly sorrow that works repentance not to be repented of. This to is an action of God on behalf of an individual.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

How far in advance do you believe He knows it? Based on what scriptures do you believe this?

He knows the end from the Beginning. So He knows everything.

I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done

 

[Magenta]

He knows the end from the Beginning. So He knows everything.

I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done

Also 1 John 3:20, Psalm 139:4 and Job 28:24

 

[Magenta]

My apologies as I am on my phone and unable to copy and paste or give the verses while I'm making a post ... I'm technologically challenged while on my phone. I say that because normally I would give the verses with the verse citations...

 

[Cameron143]

My apologies as I am on my phone and unable to copy and paste or give the verses while I'm making a post ... I'm technologically challenged while on my phone. I say that because normally I would give the verses with the verse citations...

I'm technologically challenged on my abacus.

 

[Genez]

You really don't understand written English, do you?

Don't take it personally. It has not sunk in how serious a matter it is when handling the Word of God.

My guess is that his exposure to church (if he has had any) was the typical emotion driven, uneducated type
of teachings, that made him feel comfortable to say whatever he feels is just as good as what he assumes
that you are doing the same thing.

 

[Genez]

I take it you are not able to answer the question.

You mean about God is teaching angels?

 

[Magenta]

I take it... you do not understand that the question you asked should have been understood a long time ago...
That is what is puzzling me.

I am surprised you want to pretend the Bible says what you claimed.

And LOL at your assertion of questions that should have been understood a long time ago! Look at the questions you asked...

 

[Genez]

I am surprised you want to pretend the Bible says what you claimed.

That God is still teaching angels?

 

[Magenta]

You mean about God is teaching angels?

"Using man as a means to get angels to see reality" is what you said.