Predestination is misunderstood...
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Anyone can cite Scripture. Not too many can exegete it. Many use it out of context. You've cited 3 parts of Scripture and missed context all 3 times. You dropped Galatians awful quickly and lost your "winner" believer concept. Would you like to go through 1Cor11 verse-by-verse and make your case how, where, and why it says Christians can treat one another disrespectfully and with hostility over their different views of eschatology?
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I know all about what you are saying.....
Its the great excuse maker of first year seminary students.
You need to learn that some things must wait.
To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:
A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.
............
Its the great excuse maker of first year seminary students.
You need to learn that some things must wait.
To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven:
A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted;
A time to kill,
And a time to heal;
A time to break down,
And a time to build up;
A time to weep,
And a time to laugh;
A time to mourn,
And a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones,
And a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace,
And a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to gain,
And a time to lose;
A time to keep,
And a time to throw away;
A time to tear,
And a time to sew;
A time to keep silence,
And a time to speak;
A time to love,
And a time to hate;
A time of war,
And a time of peace.
............
This is what you told me I needed to wait for? If you only knew....
Go through and find his exegesis on 1Cor11 and see if he agrees with you that it can be used to justify treating Christian siblings with disrespect and hostility if they disagree with your - actually his - eschatology.
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Considering he probably spent about four hours teaching on it, and having to locate the CD with the message amongst many discs I have stored?
I think it best to just accept it as it now stands.
Though he does teach that there is the danger for the mature Christian, that it can be easy to feel hostile towards the young believer who assumes he is already mature...
I think it best to just accept it as it now stands.
Though he does teach that there is the danger for the mature Christian, that it can be easy to feel hostile towards the young believer who assumes he is already mature...
why do you never bother engaging with the Scripture verses given to you? What sin is in your life that has made you heart so hard to the truth which God gives to correct His people?
God is not a polygamist and only has ONE wife which is made up of people from all nations, tribes and tongues called His elect church in the NEW Covenant which fulfilled the shadows and types of the Old of which the nation of Israel was pointing to.
God is not a polygamist and only has ONE wife which is made up of people from all nations, tribes and tongues called His elect church in the NEW Covenant which fulfilled the shadows and types of the Old of which the nation of Israel was pointing to.
Just so you know, and with no disrespect intended towards you or to him, I'm not concerned with a link to a teaching about 1Cor11. My suggestion was for you to consider the context and how you're using the verses. Then my suggestion was for you to review whether or not your teacher says or suggests that those verses could be used to justify disrespect and hostility towards another Christian over interpretations of eschatology.
Paul does cover some of the issues related to the varied levels of spiritual growth of Christians, both in 1Cor and elsewhere. Yes, it can be a challenge for congregations, pastors, individual believers. It was an issue back then. It's still an issue. And one of the problems in this is temporal age or time under teaching does not assure spiritual maturity or the ability to deal with Scripture accurately. So there's no misunderstanding, I'm not insinuating anything about you or your 43 years of listening to rbthieme.
So, as you essentially say (I think), we can leave it here.
Thanks.
The KJV may say so... But OT believers were believers. Never called "saints."
I wonder if there is a schoolyard where you might be able to try your bully tactics on?
Not with me you don't.
The teaching you push was designed for those who like to bully young immature believers.
Now, be a strong big brave boy... and accept that no one here will take you seriously, unless they are still babes in Christ, and not know any better to not waste their time.
Titus 3:10-11
Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that
such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.
.. is that angel wings I hear?
I wonder if there is a schoolyard where you might be able to try your bully tactics on?
Not with me you don't.
The teaching you push was designed for those who like to bully young immature believers.
Now, be a strong big brave boy... and accept that no one here will take you seriously, unless they are still babes in Christ, and not know any better to not waste their time.
Titus 3:10-11
Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time.
After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that
such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.
.. is that angel wings I hear?
I was thinking of hostilities in a non physical sense...
Rather, in how some will approach the Word of God with their mind while not being controlled with the filling and leading of the Spirit. Someone hostile may even sound blase in his expression, yet be very much hostile concerning the truth.
There are some theologians who sublimate their hostility. Done in the guise of having a detached, intellectualized discourse, while claiming to be in the pursuit of the truth.
They can seem on the surface to be reasonable and impartial while they are attempting to dismantle a doctrinal concept they wish to prove otherwise.... Its a technique that those listening and functioning in their flesh will find humanly acceptable, while inwardly they too are being hostile in God's judgment.
The importance of presentation is placed over substance to have an appeal for those walking according to their flesh... They are often very religious and will feel secure as long as their approach is able to influence some to see it their way....
So, yes there is a type of denominational hostility when a denomination's false teaching is to be protected to keep the traditional thinking locked in.
Hostility does not have to be overt to be hostile to the truth. Even apathy can be a form of hostility when its in regards to spiritual matters.
So be it....
Rather, in how some will approach the Word of God with their mind while not being controlled with the filling and leading of the Spirit. Someone hostile may even sound blase in his expression, yet be very much hostile concerning the truth.
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:6-8
There are some theologians who sublimate their hostility. Done in the guise of having a detached, intellectualized discourse, while claiming to be in the pursuit of the truth.
They can seem on the surface to be reasonable and impartial while they are attempting to dismantle a doctrinal concept they wish to prove otherwise.... Its a technique that those listening and functioning in their flesh will find humanly acceptable, while inwardly they too are being hostile in God's judgment.
The importance of presentation is placed over substance to have an appeal for those walking according to their flesh... They are often very religious and will feel secure as long as their approach is able to influence some to see it their way....
So, yes there is a type of denominational hostility when a denomination's false teaching is to be protected to keep the traditional thinking locked in.
Hostility does not have to be overt to be hostile to the truth. Even apathy can be a form of hostility when its in regards to spiritual matters.
So be it....
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I understood that. But now that you've mentioned this, it wouldn't surprise me these days if someone found a video that shows some eschatological debate turning physical! And wouldn't it be nice if our Lord would just put the best of the best interpreters in the ring or cage and have the matter settled once and for all? Of course, with His sense of humor it could just end in a draw. So, it would actually be better if He would just show up for the match kind of like He did with Jacob. And since we're talking eschatology, maybe like He did in AD70. But, just by this statement some may now desire to debate the eschatology of AD70. So, goes eschatology...
Since it looks like you may prefer the NAS translation:
NAS 2 Timothy 2:22-26 Now flee from youthful lusts, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
NAS Ephesians 4:29-5:4 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. 3 But do not let immorality or any impurity or greed even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. (And I'd keep reading).
NAS 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
This type of mandate and instruction concerning relationship among Christian siblings in Christ in Spirit goes on and on..
Yes, I am aware of sarcasm used in the Text and of how our Lord, Paul and others said some aggressive things about God's enemies.
Yes, I am aware of Titus being sent to clean up congregation(s) and silence "empty talkers and deceivers". IMO too many immature Christians think they're Titus.
No, I'm not syrupy and emotional about love toward one another or neighbor. I do still get a bit choked up thinking about our Lord and first-born brother (Rom8:29) going to the cross. Then I temper that knowing it was the greatest act of love for our Father and for man. And I stand in awe and maximum admiration of His sacrifice, then go back to bowing the knee in submission to Him, which in part is love for Him.
Re: the Spirit. It's easy to claim we learned the truth from His Spirit or from a spiritual teacher educated or not educated in the original languages (I learned long ago to prefer educated BTW - as it seems you did). It's also easy at times to show from the Word how some supposed Spirit learned truth is wrong. And I learned that knowledge of the languages is not in itself a road to understanding Spirit enlightened truth. Again, I'm not targeting you, but men can sit under teaching for a lifetime, be obnoxious toward others who have done similarly but have been taught differently, and all the while one or both have been taught wrongly. We live in a time where there is supposedly something like 60,000 denominations (or some such absurd number). I doubt there is one or many doctrinal topics that can be fully agreed upon on these forums. Yet everyone thinks they know the Truth.
Since it looks like you may prefer the NAS translation:
NAS 2 Timothy 2:22-26 Now flee from youthful lusts, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
NAS Ephesians 4:29-5:4 Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, that it may give grace to those who hear. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. 3 But do not let immorality or any impurity or greed even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4 and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. (And I'd keep reading).
NAS 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind, and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
This type of mandate and instruction concerning relationship among Christian siblings in Christ in Spirit goes on and on..
Yes, I am aware of sarcasm used in the Text and of how our Lord, Paul and others said some aggressive things about God's enemies.
Yes, I am aware of Titus being sent to clean up congregation(s) and silence "empty talkers and deceivers". IMO too many immature Christians think they're Titus.
No, I'm not syrupy and emotional about love toward one another or neighbor. I do still get a bit choked up thinking about our Lord and first-born brother (Rom8:29) going to the cross. Then I temper that knowing it was the greatest act of love for our Father and for man. And I stand in awe and maximum admiration of His sacrifice, then go back to bowing the knee in submission to Him, which in part is love for Him.
Re: the Spirit. It's easy to claim we learned the truth from His Spirit or from a spiritual teacher educated or not educated in the original languages (I learned long ago to prefer educated BTW - as it seems you did). It's also easy at times to show from the Word how some supposed Spirit learned truth is wrong. And I learned that knowledge of the languages is not in itself a road to understanding Spirit enlightened truth. Again, I'm not targeting you, but men can sit under teaching for a lifetime, be obnoxious toward others who have done similarly but have been taught differently, and all the while one or both have been taught wrongly. We live in a time where there is supposedly something like 60,000 denominations (or some such absurd number). I doubt there is one or many doctrinal topics that can be fully agreed upon on these forums. Yet everyone thinks they know the Truth.