Predestination is misunderstood...

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Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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532
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I am stunned with all the rambling that you just went through! Please highlight the portion of my post that mentioned WORKS in any way, shape, or form!
Maybe you are saying the early reformers thought that works were needed for salvation. If so, then you need to read what they have to say, because they all agree man's works count for nothing.

As for your statement:
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works (plural) God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work (singular) of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:27-29

I totally agree. However, as ForestGreenCook posted earlier “The natural man, before he has been regenerated, receiveth not the things of the Spirit, neither can he know them”. In other words think (T), we are totally depraved. On second thought don't do that, It may make you think of Calvin!

God must therefore give us a new heart of flesh that we may hear, believe, and put our trust in him alone, in other words “believe in the one he has sent.” John 6:27-29. Without the work of the Spirit this could never happen. Therefore, there is no room to boast in yourself!

You might try studying the early reformers. You might just learn something!
Well then. I do not know what you were trying to tell me when you said....

I'm not sure where this thread is going. Early on, post #8 God chose us out from all those whom He knew would believe”, seemed to take grace out of the picture. He did not choose us because He knew that we would believe, His choice was not based on any merit in us at all.
We do not have merit when we believe in Christ. We believe because He holds the merit to believe in Him.
If someone hands you a million dollars with no strings attached, and you accept it? How could you claim merit for not refusing it?

The total depravity of man I agree with. Limited atonement is shameful in the light of what the Scriptures do tell us. Irresistible grace is an insult to God, as if He does not merit being believed in once grace suppresses the sin nature so our soul can choose to believe..... TULIP was attempt to explain how a fallen man can get saved, just like the Catholics made up Immaculate conception as a way to explain hos Jesus could be born sinless.......

But, why are you doing this?:
Potatoes do not need salvation.
They just need butter and salt,
That then causes man to experience salivation.

have a nice day.!

....
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,403
532
113
It's very dangerous to base an interpretation of Scripture on only three words or one verse. Study the context. That being said, "in him" or "in Christ" are favorite phrases of Paul.
AS FAR AS PREDESTINATION?
To be chosen "in Him?"

I'll ask you something I believe you can answer.

Where was Eve's body before the Lord put Adam into a deep sleep?
Her body was where? "In him."

And, where is now our resurrection body?

"IN HIM."

We are the Bride of Christ.
And, Eve was the bride of Adam...

We were chosen by God before the foundation of the world to become the Bride of Christ. Chosen "IN HIM."

Dangerous interpretation?

In the Devil's world the most dangerous interpretation would be having insight that explains truth.
That's the danger we must face. And, will, if we seek the Lord with all our heart.


selah....
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
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London
christianchat.com
Jesus said, "whosoever believes."

To believe in something is most definitely making a decision. Do you believe if you work a job you will get a pay check before accepting a job offer? If you do, you have made a decision that if I get this job I will get a paycheck because you "believe."
you have to look into the reason why they believed, If you say they decided then there was something good, of spiritual worth in them, something I deny.

If however the faith was given to them to believe as a free gift then all the praise and glory belongs to the Giver only.

Nobody believes, who can?

Who can believe that this man Jesus was nailed to a tree? that all our sins were put on Him and that 3 days later He was raised out of the grave?

It has to be a miraculous work in the heart.
 

Shepherd

Active member
May 11, 2022
248
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"For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world
to be holy and blameless in His presence."


Ephesians 1:4​

It does not say that we were simply chosen by Him.
But, specifically, that we were "chosen in Him."

What does "chosen in Him" mean?

Understanding that phrase is the key to understanding predestination.

grace and peace ..............
A little more context.....

Ephesians1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

The word "predestinated", in the Bible, is always referring to a group; not an individual. And God shows that it was His will for that group to have specific and very certain characteristics.
God chose that the group (we, us) would be holy and without blame and He chose that this group (we, us) would be adopted as His children. by Jesus Christ, by the will of God. And in another scripture it says that the group will be "conformed to the image of Christ" (see Romans 8:29). Of course, the only way for an individual to be included in that group is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Dec 18, 2023
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Yep, here is what Jonah preached.

4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Wow ok so you reject Jonah 3

Well ok how do you answer Gods predestination of the Israelites in the desert for 40 years.

Let me guess, pre destination and free will only means one thing. 😊
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,155
3,697
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Well ok how do you answer Gods predestination of the Israelites in the desert for 40 years.
God chose them to wander in the desert for 40 years because of their disobedience.

Are you rejecting Jonah 3?

Predestination is a beautiful doctrine for those who are in Christ. It is a promise of the future adoption, which is, the redemption of the body. It is the promise to be conformed to the image of Christ. One is not predestined until they are in Christ. Not one person is predestined to be in Christ.
 
Dec 18, 2023
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God chose them to wander in the desert for 40 years because of their disobedience.

Are you rejecting Jonah 3?

Predestination is a beautiful doctrine for those who are in Christ. It is a promise of the future adoption, which is, the redemption of the body. It is the promise to be conformed to the image of Christ. One is not predestined until they are in Christ. Not one person is predestined to be in Christ.
not true sorry.

Your to busy relating free will and pre destination to calvinism.

It's such a shame.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,155
3,697
113
not true sorry.

Your to busy relating free will and pre destination to calvinism.

It's such a shame.
Allow scripture to define predestined.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

What is the adoption? See scripture...

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is the future redemption of the body.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
3,049
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While no epistle would say this at the beginning, the very fact that Paul told the Philippian jailer "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" IMPLIES a free will decision to believe. Agrippa said to Paul "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian" (Acts 26:28). Had he been persuaded, would that not have been a free will decision? What about the 3,000 Jews who were saved on the day of Pentecost? Were they not convicted, and made free will decisions to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?

The whole point of preaching the Gospel is for sinners to RESPOND to the Gospel. And such a response is in fact a free will decision. God will compel none to be saved, and God will exclude none from salvation.
I have a question for you. Where does the credit and glory for the "choice" we make to follow Jesus go? It's our choice and not His right? With what you're pushing here it should go to us, yet His word tells us that NONE seek for God, and that our salvation is ALL Him lest any of us boast, right? But if "I" make the choice then "I" have something to boast about over the sad sap that rejects Him. Right?

See besides the part where all scripture says that God is sovereign, repentance is a gift, God chooses us, and that salvation is all God to the point we have NOTHING to boast about because there is NOTHING we can do to save ourselves, besides those points my personal testimony leaves absolutely NO room for what you're saying to be true. Please let me explain before this seems completely arrogant, for no reason.

See I wasn't born in the Church or anywhere near it. I thought about religion as most "pop culture" does today still. It was a system of control created by the power elite to keep the weak minded under thumb. Once I saw my first son was born when I was 22 I now felt there was more to the world than matter and energy, I didn't run to Jesus or anything, but no longer called myself an atheist. Okay shortly after this my wife was saved, she was awesome and not ever too pushy but slowly attracted me to church and this Jesus fella. I started going and then one day I responded to the alter call. I went up front and repeated the prayer and was told I was saved and now a Christian. I even went out and was baptized as well, to declare it publicly. Life went on and our next son was born 7 years later and life was pretty good. Right up to the day of my motorcycle wreak.

I was leaving work one day thinking "Man, I just paid all the bills, my bank accounts sitting fat, am leaving my awesome job, with my long Viking braid hanging halfway down my back, to hop on my motorcycle to go home to my beautiful wife, who happens to be making my favorite dinner, and 2 awesome sons. Bow down world, I got this whooped!"
Well after that I woke up 19 days later with no function at all in my right and dominate arm. There were more injuries like I had a external fixator on my left wrist and hand, and a few lacerations, but the main thing was the arm. Slowly figured out what was wrong and that it couldn't be repaired, my big insurance payout was 6,000, and life on top of it all. I was blessed in so many ways, but 100% blind to it. I still had my job, it came with insurance that made sure I never missed a check, a wife that had been by me through everything in life, and was still there unconditionally, friends that helped in ever way they could, so much. Yet I wanted nothing but to die. Remember at this point I thought I was a Christian and had "done that" and it wasn't helping. The doctors couldn't help, not science, nor insurance, not even God could help me in my mind.

For 2 years I wanted to kill myself every day. The suicidal thoughts I couldn't stop no matter what. Every 5 minutes for 2 solid years I would run it through my head that my job could replace me, my wife could find a better husband, and I'd justify doing it in ever way up to my two boys. I knew that no man on this earth would love them and fight for their well being like I would. Like their father would. So one day, Sept. 29th 2013 to be exact, it all came to a head. I was home alone and I just hit my knees in complete defeat. If I had ever believed in God, I didn't now. At this point in my head, God couldn't help me. I hit my knees and this was what I said through the waterfall of weeping tears "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I lose, and I QUIT!!"

That was it. I then woke up the next day, got ready, went to work, and it wasn't until lunch that it hit me. "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!". Right there I KNEW, whatever this is, it's God. And I KNEW" Jesus was His Son. Form there He lead me strait to His word and I read John. After 3 I went out to the receptionist and told her "I think I was born again!" That was when He saved me. Before this day I did NOT know Him.

You don't have to believe me, but this was how He saved me. When "I chose Him" as pop Christianity sells it today with the sinners prayer thing, I was not saved. Not at all. Please don't get me wrong, I believe He did this for a reason, but it wasn't until He granted me repentance and showed me exactly how much power I have to save myself, that He saved me. There is no way I chose Him, at the time I thought I already had and He was lacking. This seems to go against exactly what your saying we do to be saved.

I would love to hear how your we choose doctrine fits this into it, but I could be wrong. Maybe my first salvation had a delay and I was really saved then, but in my life I did not know Him until He made me new ALL by His power.
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
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Allow scripture to define predestined.

Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

What is the adoption? See scripture...

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is the future redemption of the body.
your just quoting one verse.

And making a story out of it.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,155
3,697
113
I have a question for you. Where does the credit and glory for the "choice" we make to follow Jesus go? It's our choice and not His right? With what you're pushing here it should go to us, yet His word tells us that NONE seek for God, and that our salvation is ALL Him lest any of us boast, right? But if "I" make the choice then "I" have something to boast about over the sad sap that rejects Him. Right?
Not a good argument. I could also say, "Look at me. Jesus chose me to be saved over you. I am somebody, you're not."
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
I have a question for you. Where does the credit and glory for the "choice" we make to follow Jesus go? It's our choice and not His right? With what you're pushing here it should go to us, yet His word tells us that NONE seek for God, and that our salvation is ALL Him lest any of us boast, right? But if "I" make the choice then "I" have something to boast about over the sad sap that rejects Him. Right?

See besides the part where all scripture says that God is sovereign, repentance is a gift, God chooses us, and that salvation is all God to the point we have NOTHING to boast about because there is NOTHING we can do to save ourselves, besides those points my personal testimony leaves absolutely NO room for what you're saying to be true. Please let me explain before this seems completely arrogant, for no reason.

See I wasn't born in the Church or anywhere near it. I thought about religion as most "pop culture" does today still. It was a system of control created by the power elite to keep the weak minded under thumb. Once I saw my first son was born when I was 22 I now felt there was more to the world than matter and energy, I didn't run to Jesus or anything, but no longer called myself an atheist. Okay shortly after this my wife was saved, she was awesome and not ever too pushy but slowly attracted me to church and this Jesus fella. I started going and then one day I responded to the alter call. I went up front and repeated the prayer and was told I was saved and now a Christian. I even went out and was baptized as well, to declare it publicly. Life went on and our next son was born 7 years later and life was pretty good. Right up to the day of my motorcycle wreak.

I was leaving work one day thinking "Man, I just paid all the bills, my bank accounts sitting fat, am leaving my awesome job, with my long Viking braid hanging halfway down my back, to hop on my motorcycle to go home to my beautiful wife, who happens to be making my favorite dinner, and 2 awesome sons. Bow down world, I got this whooped!"
Well after that I woke up 19 days later with no function at all in my right and dominate arm. There were more injuries like I had a external fixator on my left wrist and hand, and a few lacerations, but the main thing was the arm. Slowly figured out what was wrong and that it couldn't be repaired, my big insurance payout was 6,000, and life on top of it all. I was blessed in so many ways, but 100% blind to it. I still had my job, it came with insurance that made sure I never missed a check, a wife that had been by me through everything in life, and was still there unconditionally, friends that helped in ever way they could, so much. Yet I wanted nothing but to die. Remember at this point I thought I was a Christian and had "done that" and it wasn't helping. The doctors couldn't help, not science, nor insurance, not even God could help me in my mind.

For 2 years I wanted to kill myself every day. The suicidal thoughts I couldn't stop no matter what. Every 5 minutes for 2 solid years I would run it through my head that my job could replace me, my wife could find a better husband, and I'd justify doing it in ever way up to my two boys. I knew that no man on this earth would love them and fight for their well being like I would. Like their father would. So one day, Sept. 29th 2013 to be exact, it all came to a head. I was home alone and I just hit my knees in complete defeat. If I had ever believed in God, I didn't now. At this point in my head, God couldn't help me. I hit my knees and this was what I said through the waterfall of weeping tears "I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, I can't do this anymore, world you win, I lose, and I QUIT!!"

That was it. I then woke up the next day, got ready, went to work, and it wasn't until lunch that it hit me. "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!". Right there I KNEW, whatever this is, it's God. And I KNEW" Jesus was His Son. Form there He lead me strait to His word and I read John. After 3 I went out to the receptionist and told her "I think I was born again!" That was when He saved me. Before this day I did NOT know Him.

You don't have to believe me, but this was how He saved me. When "I chose Him" as pop Christianity sells it today with the sinners prayer thing, I was not saved. Not at all. Please don't get me wrong, I believe He did this for a reason, but it wasn't until He granted me repentance and showed me exactly how much power I have to save myself, that He saved me. There is no way I chose Him, at the time I thought I already had and He was lacking. This seems to go against exactly what your saying we do to be saved.

I would love to hear how your we choose doctrine fits this into it, but I could be wrong. Maybe my first salvation had a delay and I was really saved then, but in my life I did not know Him until He made me new ALL by His power.
I'm glad you made it through.

That was a certainly one of life's trials you've been through, tho I still believe you can't rule out the initial confession and water baptism you did, did not play any part in you becoming saved, until your next confession.

You would have to ask yourself, would you have confessed the way you had if a big part of you was not already saved.

Scripture speaks of a transformation that a person can go through.

Some people believe it can take up to a few years before they become fully saved.

Others believe it can happen instantly.

For what ever reason it may not happen instantly, may be because of some underlying doubt a person may have.

The freedom to choose part in this possition realty is down To God choosing to keep working with you.

But I do hope your injuries have recovered.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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you have to look into the reason why they believed, If you say they decided then there was something good, of spiritual worth in them, something I deny.

If however the faith was given to them to believe as a free gift then all the praise and glory belongs to the Giver only.

Nobody believes, who can?

Who can believe that this man Jesus was nailed to a tree? that all our sins were put on Him and that 3 days later He was raised out of the grave?

It has to be a miraculous work in the heart.
God giving us faith to believe still requires us to act and believe. Someone can give you a lawn mower but the grass isn't getting cut until you "choose" to put the lawn mower into action. We have belief but it doesn't work until we put that belief into action. That's only done by choice.
 

FollowerofShiloh

Well-known member
Jan 24, 2024
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God doesn't give gifts so we can say I have a gift from God. God gives us a gift so we put them into action. No action ever gets done until we put the gift into action. That's solely by "choice" to put the gift into action.

God gives a gift of healing. But no one gets healed until the one who has the gift puts it into action.
 

Shepherd

Active member
May 11, 2022
248
82
28
I have a question for you. Where does the credit and glory for the "choice" we make to follow Jesus go? It's our choice and not His right? With what you're pushing here it should go to us, yet His word tells us that NONE seek for God, and that our salvation is ALL Him lest any of us boast, right? But if "I" make the choice then "I" have something to boast about over the sad sap that rejects Him. Right?
...........
I can tell you how it was for me. The preacher had just preached a sermon entitled "The Lord is My Shepherd". I came under conviction of the Holy Spirit, saw myself as a lowdown, wicked, hateful sinner, started out the aisle when the thought came to me "don't do it". At that I physically shook my head at the thought and went crying down to the alter on the left side of that church, cried out to Jesus and fell on my knees. The "choice" that I made to say "no" to the devil and "yes" to Jesus was entirely SELFISH. I didn't want to go to Hell. So I called on the name of Jesus out loud in that church house, it came from the bottom of my heart and the depths of my soul and I didn't care who heard it: Meaning, I wasn't embarrassed or ashamed of it at all. Do I take credit for that? No sir. I just did what God WANTED me to do all along. It is His will for salvation to be our choice. He wants people to love him "because he first loved us", not because we were "programmed" or predetermined. God wants us to experience real joy and gratitude to Him for giving His Son for us when we don't deserve it. He doesn't want a bunch of robots programmed or forced to be saved which is what "irresistible grace" essentially would be. Please know that I could have resisted, but I didn't want to go to Hell. That my friend is what "being saved" is to be saved from....Hell.

Tell you something else. I think that to deny that the Lord Jesus Christ, the King of Glory, came and humbled Himself and "tasted death for EVERY man".....is to simply deny the glory of the real Jesus while giving glory to "another Jesus". The real Jesus didn't do no partial Job of anything. He gave Himself to die on the cross for ALL men and He is unwilling that ANY should perish. He alone gave us the ultimatim: Choose life or choose death. That was His design. No glory goes to any man for that.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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I have a question for you. Where does the credit and glory for the "choice" we make to follow Jesus go?
1. First of all this is not a matter of "credit" and "glory" since God and Christ already receive all the glory for offering the free gift of eternal live to "whosoever" believes. No one who is saved by grace claims any credit or glory.

2. You seem to forget that the purpose of the Gospel is to get a RESPONSE from the hearers. So "none seek after God" until they hear the Gospel. That is the whole point of the Gospel. That is why Christ commanded that the Gospel should be preached in all the world and to every creature.

3. Since God desires the salvation of all mankind, if He were to give the gift of saving faith, then absolutely every one would receive it. Since everyone does not get saved, God does not give the gift of saving faith. Rather He gives the Gospel to generate saving faith.