Predestination or free will?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,654
1,884
113
#22
I believe sin was covered at the time Adam and Eve were covered. However, when God comes a-knockin' on our hearts, what is our response? Do we allow Him in and live as He directs in His Word? Or do we reject Him and live any ole way we please?

If we reject, then that hell which has enlarged herself (Is 5:14) will include not only the devil and his angels (for whom hell was prepared), but also mankind (those who reject God when He calls).
"I believe sin was covered at the time Adam and Eve were covered."
"If we reject, then...hell....will include not only the devil and his angels... but also mankind"


So our sin was covered back when Adam and Ever were covered, and yet, we still have the ability to go to Hell as if our sin is NOT covered.

How exactly is our sin both covered, and not covered, at the same time?

..........
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#24
He is the covering. He is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world.
That was a promise. Jesus Christ was not slain (and our sins were not paid for) until ~4000 years after Adam.

Who gets saved? Everyone? Or those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,035
1,184
113
#25
"I believe sin was covered at the time Adam and Eve were covered."
"If we reject, then...hell....will include not only the devil and his angels... but also mankind"


So our sin was covered back when Adam and Ever were covered, and yet, we still have the ability to go to Hell as if our sin is NOT covered.

How exactly is our sin both covered, and not covered, at the same time?
Covered ... we accept what God offers and our sin is covered.

Not covered ... we reject what God offers and our sin is not covered.


Do you not believe that Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God, foreordained before the foundation of the world?

And that His sacrifice is sufficient to cover all the sin of all mankind?

1 Peter 1:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,035
1,184
113
#26
That was a promise. Jesus Christ was not slain (and our sins were not paid for) until ~4000 years after Adam.

Who gets saved? Everyone? Or those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?
Yes, a promise. And those in OT who lived before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ came are saved by the same faith in Him that we have.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise

Edited to add: Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ get saved.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#27
Yes, a promise. And those in OT who lived before our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ came are saved by the same faith in Him that we have.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise

Edited to add: Those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ get saved.
OK, I agree. But going back to this:
I believe sin was covered at the time Adam and Eve were covered.
While the promise of Christ coming was given in Gen 3:15, Adam and Eve's sins were only temporarily covered by the sacrifice of animals. Their sin (and ours) was not covered until the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
648
57
28
#28
I believe sin was covered at the time Adam and Eve were covered. However, when God comes a-knockin' on our hearts, what is our response? Do we allow Him in and live as He directs in His Word? Or do we reject Him and live any ole way we please?

If we reject, then that hell which has enlarged herself (Is 5:14) will include not only the devil and his angels (for whom hell was prepared), but also mankind (those who reject God when He calls).
If sin was covered when Adam and Eve covered their nakedness, how do we explain the sacrificial system for sins that were later implemented under God? And those sacrifices did not save eternally. They simply covered through the sacrificial blood of the unblemished animal, certain one's prescribed for covering of certain transgressions of the law of God, until the next offense. And then it started again.
Whereas in the new covenant Jesus was the last blood sacrifice on the altar that was the cross. He was the perfect unblemished lamb of God who took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. All by God's grace and not by anything we did at all. All that is required to receive that gift of eternal life, whereas prior we are dead in our sins, as were those described in the old testament sacrificial system, is to believe in the promise, the covenant. And receive Christ as our savior from those sins.

God's gifts and calling are without repentance. They are God's gifts to us. We do nothing to warrant them, earn them. It is God's gift held out to all who hear the call. And of course God would know who would respond to his gift because he knows all things.

God did not create some people to be saved and some to die damned. The paradigm of sin and salvation and God's law creates those two fates. Eternal Salvation or eternal damnation.
 
S

Seedz

Guest
#29
Romans 9 is frequently misinterpreted and misapplied to suggest that God elects some for salvation and others for damnation. That is false teaching. So let's look at some of the things mentioned.

1. The election of Isaac over Ishmael -- Isaac was the son of Abraham and Sarah and his birth was supernatural (in that they were well past child-bearing age). In contrast, Ishmael was the son of Hagar. So Isaac was the child of promise, and thus elected to continue the line of Abraham. This has nothing to do with election for salvation.

2. The election of Jacob over Esau -- In His divine foreknowledge, God knew that even though Jacob was a supplanter and a deceiver, he would be a man of faith. At the same time God saw that Esau would not be a man of faith, and would indeed become the enemy of Jacob (and Edom the enemy of Israel). So Jacob was elected to continue the line of Abraham. Again this has nothing to do with election for salvation.

3. The hardening of Pharaoh's heart -- This is frequently presented as election of damnation while ignoring how and why God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Even before Moses was born, Pharaoh CHOSE to become the enemy of Israel and God. Nonetheless, God gave him multiple opportunities to repent, but he continued to harden his heart. So eventually God hardened his heart.

God does not harden hearts arbitrarily, but gives all sinners several opportunities to repent. The book of Jonah is a good example. And God pleads with sinners in Scripture -- today if you will hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS.

4. Romans 9:15-16 -- For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

This passage is used to teach that God chooses some for salvation and others for damnation. But all it reveals is that God is sovereign in every way, and that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works ("him that willeth" and "him that runneth") lest any man should boast. Whenever this passage is presented, we need to immediately go to John 3:16,17 to see that God desires the salvation of ALL HUMANITY.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
I Never mentioned salvation. I literally referred to the honorable/not honorable use line.
 
S

Seedz

Guest
#30
Do you "test" the spirits (voices), thoughts, or ideas that come in between your ears? To determine that they are indeed OF God? Or, do you just not question any of this? Do you try, or strive to "bring unto Christ", any of those things I listed above?
Definitely, but who knows if I am doing it well enough? Kind of hard to tell.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,654
1,884
113
#31
Covered ... we accept what God offers and our sin is covered.

Not covered ... we reject what God offers and our sin is not covered.

Do you not believe that Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God, foreordained before the foundation of the world?

And that His sacrifice is sufficient to cover all the sin of all mankind?

1 Peter 1:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world

"Covered ... we accept what God offers and our sin is covered."

"Not covered ... we reject what God offers and our sin is not covered."



1. Your definition of "covered" is to "accept what God offers."
2. You previously claimed all of mankind was "covered" when Adam and Eve were covered.
3. According to your definitions, this would mean "all mankind accepted what God offered when Adam and Eve accepted what God offered."
4. Is that correct? Is that your belief?
5. If not, please restate it clearly, so we understand.




--------
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,035
1,184
113
#32
If sin was covered when Adam and Eve covered their nakedness, how do we explain the sacrificial system for sins that were later implemented under God? And those sacrifices did not save eternally. They simply covered through the sacrificial blood of the unblemished animal, certain one's prescribed for covering of certain transgressions of the law of God, until the next offense. And then it started again.
All the OT offerings and sacrifices point to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The OT believers had the same faith we have. They believed in the same Messiah we believe in.




AngelFrog said:
Whereas in the new covenant Jesus was the last blood sacrifice on the altar that was the cross. He was the perfect unblemished lamb of God who took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. All by God's grace and not by anything we did at all. All that is required to receive that gift of eternal life, whereas prior we are dead in our sins, as were those described in the old testament sacrificial system, is to believe in the promise, the covenant. And receive Christ as our savior from those sins.
Right. OT believers looked ahead in faith to Messiah.

We look back in faith and see the same Messiah.

Same faith. Same Messiah.




AngelFrog said:
God's gifts and calling are without repentance. They are God's gifts to us. We do nothing to warrant them, earn them. It is God's gift held out to all who hear the call. And of course God would know who would respond to his gift because he knows all things.

God did not create some people to be saved and some to die damned. The paradigm of sin and salvation and God's law creates those two fates. Eternal Salvation or eternal damnation.
God allows people to reject His goodness and grace.
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,035
1,184
113
#33
"Covered ... we accept what God offers and our sin is covered."

"Not covered ... we reject what God offers and our sin is not covered."



1. Your definition of "covered" is to "accept what God offers."
2. You previously claimed all of mankind was "covered" when Adam and Eve were covered.
3. According to your definitions, this would mean "all mankind accepted what God offered when Adam and Eve accepted what God offered."
4. Is that correct? Is that your belief?
5. If not, please restate it clearly, so we understand.
Do you believe this verse:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


There have been/are/will be some who reject what has been done for them. This does not mean payment has not been made. It just means they reject. And they will suffer the consequences of their rejection. Sad really because God made provision in His infinite wisdom and love.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
240
63
#34
I've received an appropriate number of responses about my gay bashing post but it was mostly about gays, the second paragraph questioned predestination. I was not being sarcastic when I admitted I don't understand it. Predestination, free will or both, I want to know. The only text I have I have trusted over biblical matters is the bible, (usually NIV) and it isn't clear to me. Can it be both? Please respond. CaliBob
c....,

No it cannot be both.

It is not predestination. If that were the case why would Christ have needed to die on the cross, etc?

Free will is alive and well as part of G-d's plan. Remember it was illustrated by G-d with Adam and Eve and Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.

It hasn't changed.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
8,654
1,884
113
#35
Do you believe this verse:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

There have been/are/will be some who reject what has been done for them. This does not mean payment has not been made. It just means they reject. And they will suffer the consequences of their rejection. Sad really because God made provision in His infinite wisdom and love.

Yeah, and that just has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the claim you made about Adam and Eve.

Absolutely nothing.

And for some reason you're afraid to answer a very simple question.


So let's try this again.

1. From your own words, your definition of "covered" is to "accept what God offers."
2. You previously claimed all of mankind was "covered" when Adam and Eve were covered.
3. According to your definitions, this would mean "all mankind accepted what God offered when Adam and Eve accepted what God offered."
4. Is that correct? Is that your belief?
5. If not, please restate it clearly, so we understand.







--------
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
648
57
28
#36
c....,

No it cannot be both.

It is not predestination. If that were the case why would Christ have needed to die on the cross, etc?

Free will is alive and well as part of G-d's plan. Remember it was illustrated by G-d with Adam and Eve and Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.

It hasn't changed.
Proverbs 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
687
113
#37
Free will is alive and well as part of G-d's plan. Remember it was illustrated by G-d with Adam and Eve and Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.

It hasn't changed.
You're right, free will is alive and well, but those who have been mesmerized by total inability think that things have changed.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
8,268
5,457
113
Anaheim, Cali.
#38
Yes, thank you. When I read the Bible, free will makes the most sense to me. However I've been told I was mistaken but nobody ever gave gave me a sensible explaination why. (grrr, why dosn't this thing have a spell/correct icon)
Anyway, Of course I think most people have embeded within their soul, (if they have one) a desire to be with God. Just like most people know better than to torture innocent things like babies, puppies and kitties. Maybe those that do (psychopaths) don't have a soul. The bible dosn't touch on psychopathy. I haven't changed my mind, it was up to me to accept or reject him. Usually on something like this if someone asks at bible study the teacher or embedded group will stick with the party line or 'doctrine' however there is two answers and depending which church a person goes to, thats the answer you'll get.

Here I have a neutral place to ask and even those who support predestination over free will responses sounded alot like free will to me.
thanks, Cali. bob
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
687
113
#39
When I read the Bible, free will makes the most sense to me. However I've been told I was mistaken but nobody ever gave gave me a sensible explaination why
You will never get one from them. It's what I call one of those Calvinist contradictions.
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,035
1,184
113
#40
Yeah, and that just has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the claim you made about Adam and Eve.

Absolutely nothing.

And for some reason you're afraid to answer a very simple question.


So let's try this again.

1. From your own words, your definition of "covered" is to "accept what God offers."
2. You previously claimed all of mankind was "covered" when Adam and Eve were covered.
3. According to your definitions, this would mean "all mankind accepted what God offered when Adam and Eve accepted what God offered."
4. Is that correct? Is that your belief?
5. If not, please restate it clearly, so we understand.
I answered your question "How exactly is our sin both covered, and not covered, at the same time?"

That was your question.

Those who accept what God has done will find themselves blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ (Eph 1:3).

Those who do not accept what God has done will find themselves in that place prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41 Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels).

"Not covered" does not mean that their sin was never covered. It means that they reject the covering God has provided. God allows that, to our own detriment.

So, again, 1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

I believe that verse. The Lord Jesus Christ died for the sins of all in all the world. Why do some still wind up in that place prepared for the devil and his angels?