Predestination vs Freewill - Possible Solution to argument

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Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
3,725
1,662
113
#1
I've got a possible solution to this longstanding argument:

Both Predestined and Freewill apply to a believer's life. God can override us and do whatever He wants; however, God wants us to know Him and love Him. This involves us having a choice because love without a choice is NOT love.

So, God offers us two paths - the Path of Life (God's Will) or the Path of Death (our will). This is the choice we make. This is our freewill - we get to choose which path. This is when we choose God or ourselves. Remember Moses said, "I set before you life and death. Choose life."

Both paths are predestined. Their end is predetermined and unchangeable. If I choose the Path of Life which is God's Will for my life, it ends with Eternal Life with God. If I choose the Path of Death which is my will for my life, it ends with Eternal Death apart from God. NOTHING changes the end of the path - it is predestined.

I may jump back and forth between the two paths; however, once I settle down and finalize my decision, my end is predestined.

On each path way I have "wiggle room freewill" which is that I get to make choices, but they do not interfere with the final end of the path.

So, predestination and freewill do not contradict each other and both apply. God does not want robots. He wants our genuine love for Him.

Please, share your thoughts.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
5,347
2,093
113
#2
Good try but i don't think it is based on the Bible revelation but on your thinking attempts to find a resolution to the problem you see as a contradiction between Gods Predestining people and people having free will..

My belief in regard to this issue i believe is based on the Bible revelation..

God has predestined those who will have eternity with Him since the very start of creation.. At the start of Creation He already knew all that would happen down throughout History in every detail and thus already knew every life that was going to be lived in fine detail.. From this foreknowledge of all History and of the lives of everyone who was going to live God could and did predestine all who where going to be saved.. All the while everyone who ever and will ever exist have the free will to chose to either accept or reject the Will of God and in doing so they decide if they will be apart of Gods eternal perfected existence or if they will spend eternity in the eternal lake of fire..

God exists in His eternal existence.. But he created another existence a universe which had a separate space and a separate time.. God is not subject to or confined within His creation.. God is not a part of this universe.. He exists outside of this universe in his own separate existence in his own time that has no geared connection to our time.. They are both completely separate.. So from His time He can see all our universe times at one time and thus he knows the beginning and the end of our universe time.. He see's all the universe history from the very start to the very end in fine detail. While we humans in this universe can only experience time as we have it in this universe..
 

glf1

Active member
Jun 10, 2018
314
123
43
#3
Hey! Laffter and Adstar... PTL!
I have to say that is how I see it too. My slight difference is that I imagine time as having been created along with the universe so that it can be subject to corruption awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God. I picture all of time stretched out as if on a ruler and the Lord is looking down seeing Adam and Eve in the garden, a little turn of his head and there we are, one more shift of perspective and there's the Great White Throne judgment; all like its happening right now from the Lord's view. Jesus holds all things together by the word of his power. I picture Jesus advancing the decay of the entire universe moment by moment, toward an eternal new heaven and new earth.
Maranatha!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
779
113
#4
Your view is about predestination of paths, but Bible talks about predestination of people, like:

"And all, who were destined for eternal life, believed".

You read it like "And all, who chose to believe, were destined for eternal life", which is in the opposite order.

Also, predestination does not make us robots.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
3,725
1,662
113
#5
Good try but i don't think it is based on the Bible revelation but on your thinking attempts to find a resolution to the problem you see as a contradiction between Gods Predestining people and people having free will..

My belief in regard to this issue i believe is based on the Bible revelation..

God has predestined those who will have eternity with Him since the very start of creation.. At the start of Creation He already knew all that would happen down throughout History in every detail and thus already knew every life that was going to be lived in fine detail.. From this foreknowledge of all History and of the lives of everyone who was going to live God could and did predestine all who where going to be saved.. All the while everyone who ever and will ever exist have the free will to chose to either accept or reject the Will of God and in doing so they decide if they will be apart of Gods eternal perfected existence or if they will spend eternity in the eternal lake of fire..

God exists in His eternal existence.. But he created another existence a universe which had a separate space and a separate time.. God is not subject to or confined within His creation.. God is not a part of this universe.. He exists outside of this universe in his own separate existence in his own time that has no geared connection to our time.. They are both completely separate.. So from His time He can see all our universe times at one time and thus he knows the beginning and the end of our universe time.. He see's all the universe history from the very start to the very end in fine detail. While we humans in this universe can only experience time as we have it in this universe..
Hello Adstar,

I enjoyed your post. All of us have different views, yet only one Savior - Jesus Christ and on that we can all agree! Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
3,725
1,662
113
#6
Hey! Laffter and Adstar... PTL!
I have to say that is how I see it too. My slight difference is that I imagine time as having been created along with the universe so that it can be subject to corruption awaiting the manifestation of the sons of God. I picture all of time stretched out as if on a ruler and the Lord is looking down seeing Adam and Eve in the garden, a little turn of his head and there we are, one more shift of perspective and there's the Great White Throne judgment; all like its happening right now from the Lord's view. Jesus holds all things together by the word of his power. I picture Jesus advancing the decay of the entire universe moment by moment, toward an eternal new heaven and new earth.
Maranatha!
Hello glf1,

I like your enthusiasm and excitement about God! Great post! I enjoyed it very much! Thank you for sharing.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
3,725
1,662
113
#7
Your view is about predestination of paths, but Bible talks about predestination of people, like:

"And all, who were destined for eternal life, believed".

You read it like "And all, who chose to believe, were destined for eternal life", which is in the opposite order.

Also, predestination does not make us robots.
Hello trofimus,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! I enjoyed them very much!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,627
3,269
113
#8
Both paths are predestined.
If both paths are predestined, you have a big problem. They will cancel each other out. In any event, you will not find anything in the Bible to support this.

Predestination is not about salvation or damnation. It is about the perfection of the saints.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
779
113
#9
Predestination is not about salvation or damnation. It is about the perfection of the saints.
"And all, who were destined for eternal life, believed".
Acts 13:48

"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. But you are a chosen people..."
1Pt 2:9

How can this be about the perfection of the saints?
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
1,962
547
113
#10
"And all, who were destined for eternal life, believed".
Acts 13:48


"A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall. They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. But you are a chosen people..."
1Pt 2:9


How can this be about the perfection of the saints?
You are victim to confirmation bias. You picked an interpretation of those verses that says loosely what you want to believe.

Read those verses in King James Bible and translate them with Strongs dictionary. They don’t read the same as stated. The only predestination is when God intervenes by choosing and sending a prophet. Who He has “chosen” He “glorifies”. Some people are in position to change events like Gideon, Samson, Mary and Noah. These He chose specifically and performed miracles through them. Then Christ died as a Sacrifice atoning for all sin. You still have to chose to accept the gift, then follow. We are “grafted into the vine”, and are expected to yield fruit. We are the branches.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
779
113
#11
You are victim to confirmation bias. You picked an interpretation of those verses that says loosely what you want to believe.

Read those verses in King James Bible and translate them with Strongs dictionary. They don’t read the same as stated. The only predestination is when God intervenes by choosing and sending a prophet. Who He has “chosen” He “glorifies”. Some people are in position to change events like Gideon, Samson, Mary and Noah. These He chose specifically and performed miracles through them. Then Christ died as a Sacrifice atoning for all sin. You still have to chose to accept the gift, then follow. We are “grafted into the vine”, and are expected to yield fruit. We are the branches.
I did not interpret anything. I quoted two verses and asked how they can be about the predestination to perfection.
But we can discuss Greek if you think the modern translation is a wrong interpretation.

"καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον" Acts 13:48

"οἳ προσκόπτουσιν τῷ λόγῳ ἀπειθοῦντες, εἰς ὃ καὶ ἐτέθησαν" 1 Pt 2:8
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
7,099
781
113
#12
Predestination is not about salvation or damnation. It is about the perfection of the saints.
Amen! Predestination has nothing to do with salvation. It has everything to do with those already saved in Christ and what is afforded them in the future. It's the believer's destination which is the adoption, the redemption of the body (Romans 8:23). This is the believer's hope.
 

theanointedwinner

Well-known member
Nov 6, 2018
2,058
1,107
113
#13
I've got a possible solution to this longstanding argument:

Both Predestined and Freewill apply to a believer's life. God can override us and do whatever He wants; however, God wants us to know Him and love Him. This involves us having a choice because love without a choice is NOT love.

So, God offers us two paths - the Path of Life (God's Will) or the Path of Death (our will). This is the choice we make. This is our freewill - we get to choose which path. This is when we choose God or ourselves. Remember Moses said, "I set before you life and death. Choose life."

Both paths are predestined. Their end is predetermined and unchangeable. If I choose the Path of Life which is God's Will for my life, it ends with Eternal Life with God. If I choose the Path of Death which is my will for my life, it ends with Eternal Death apart from God. NOTHING changes the end of the path - it is predestined.

I may jump back and forth between the two paths; however, once I settle down and finalize my decision, my end is predestined.

On each path way I have "wiggle room freewill" which is that I get to make choices, but they do not interfere with the final end of the path.

So, predestination and freewill do not contradict each other and both apply. God does not want robots. He wants our genuine love for Him.

Please, share your thoughts.
oh I see, free will exist to experience love
without free will, love can never be experienced

God is all knowing, so he knows, and knowing your sincere decision does not negate the sincerity of your decision

Lafftur, your wisdom is great
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,154
359
83
#14
I've got a possible solution to this longstanding argument:

Both Predestined and Freewill apply to a believer's life. God can override us and do whatever He wants; however, God wants us to know Him and love Him. This involves us having a choice because love without a choice is NOT love.

So, God offers us two paths - the Path of Life (God's Will) or the Path of Death (our will). This is the choice we make. This is our freewill - we get to choose which path. This is when we choose God or ourselves. Remember Moses said, "I set before you life and death. Choose life."

Both paths are predestined. Their end is predetermined and unchangeable. If I choose the Path of Life which is God's Will for my life, it ends with Eternal Life with God. If I choose the Path of Death which is my will for my life, it ends with Eternal Death apart from God. NOTHING changes the end of the path - it is predestined.

I may jump back and forth between the two paths; however, once I settle down and finalize my decision, my end is predestined.

On each path way I have "wiggle room freewill" which is that I get to make choices, but they do not interfere with the final end of the path.

So, predestination and freewill do not contradict each other and both apply. God does not want robots. He wants our genuine love for Him.

Please, share your thoughts.
God set before HIS PEOPLE life and death and instructed them to choose life. Life in this scripture does not have reference to eternal life. If it was our choice to choose our eternal life, it would be eternal salvation by the works of man. It is talking about the same life that is referenced in the strait gate and narrow way, which is the abundant life here on earth if we follow God's commandments. When a disobedient child of God chooses death, it is not a literal death, but a separation from God that should be repented of to regain that fellowship back with God. This choice, whichever way we choose will not void our eternal salvation. The inspired scriptures are not written to the natural man telling him how to get eternally saved, but was written to God's children as instructions on how God wants them to live there lives here on earth.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,154
359
83
#15
Good try but i don't think it is based on the Bible revelation but on your thinking attempts to find a resolution to the problem you see as a contradiction between Gods Predestining people and people having free will..

My belief in regard to this issue i believe is based on the Bible revelation..

God has predestined those who will have eternity with Him since the very start of creation.. At the start of Creation He already knew all that would happen down throughout History in every detail and thus already knew every life that was going to be lived in fine detail.. From this foreknowledge of all History and of the lives of everyone who was going to live God could and did predestine all who where going to be saved.. All the while everyone who ever and will ever exist have the free will to chose to either accept or reject the Will of God and in doing so they decide if they will be apart of Gods eternal perfected existence or if they will spend eternity in the eternal lake of fire..

God exists in His eternal existence.. But he created another existence a universe which had a separate space and a separate time.. God is not subject to or confined within His creation.. God is not a part of this universe.. He exists outside of this universe in his own separate existence in his own time that has no geared connection to our time.. They are both completely separate.. So from His time He can see all our universe times at one time and thus he knows the beginning and the end of our universe time.. He see's all the universe history from the very start to the very end in fine detail. While we humans in this universe can only experience time as we have it in this universe..
Ps 53:2-3 - will tell you what God saw by his foreknowledge and it was that none would seek him and that none would do good, no, not one.
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,169
10,577
113
#16
Ps 53:2-3 - will tell you what God saw by his foreknowledge and it was that none would seek him and that none would do good, no, not one.
Yet the bible says whome God foreknew (his foreknowledge) he predestioned.

Ya can;t ignore that fact
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,154
359
83
#17
You are victim to confirmation bias. You picked an interpretation of those verses that says loosely what you want to believe.

Read those verses in King James Bible and translate them with Strongs dictionary. They don’t read the same as stated. The only predestination is when God intervenes by choosing and sending a prophet. Who He has “chosen” He “glorifies”. Some people are in position to change events like Gideon, Samson, Mary and Noah. These He chose specifically and performed miracles through them. Then Christ died as a Sacrifice atoning for all sin. You still have to chose to accept the gift, then follow. We are “grafted into the vine”, and are expected to yield fruit. We are the branches.
1 Cor 2:14 says that the natural man cannot choose a spiritual path, he does not understand it and thinks that it is foolish.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,154
359
83
#18
Yet the bible says whome God foreknew (his foreknowledge) he predestioned.

Ya can;t ignore that fact
Because of what he saw is why in Eph 1:5 that he choose an elect people before the foundation of the world and gave them to his Son to wash away their sins with his blood on the cross. Had he not chosen them and made them holy and without blame, he would have had no one to praise and worship him, and we would have all gone to hell.
 
Mar 14, 2011
64,169
10,577
113
#19
Because of what he saw is why in Eph 1:5 that he choose an elect people before the foundation of the world and gave them to his Son to wash away their sins with his blood on the cross. Had he not chosen them and made them holy and without blame, he would have had no one to praise and worship him, and we would have all gone to hell.
Yep he chose them, Based on His will.
What is his will?

That whoever sees the son and believes in him shall have eternal life, He Will raise on the last day, And he shall lose no one.

God chose to save people who said yes, and not save those who said no. Thats Gods right to do. Who are you you to say he has no right to do what he willed?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,154
359
83
#20
oh I see, free will exist to experience love
without free will, love can never be experienced

God is all knowing, so he knows, and knowing your sincere decision does not negate the sincerity of your decision

Lafftur, your wisdom is great
Read ps 53:2-3 - Your sincere decision was not a good one.