predestination vs freewill

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awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
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Precious friend, I agree with Most of your post, but cannot find "priests or priesthood" For The GRACE Assembly Of The Body Of CHRIST, In The Revelation Of The Mystery (Romans - Philemon KJB!), but, I have found the following:

{adopted, dear} children of {the Living God, light, the day, Abraham, promise}, believers, sons {of God}, daughters, brothers, sisters, brethren {beloved, carnal, faithful, and spiritual}, babes In Christ, {young, aged} men/women, {dearly} beloved {of The LORD}, members {in particular, one of another}, servants {of Christ}, saints, ministers, fellowlabourers, workers, co-labourers {with God}, elect of God, followers of God, heirs/joint-heirs, the temple {of God}, comforters, walkers, runners, kissers, greeters, saluters, sufferers, groaners, prayer partners, rejoicers, warriors, wrestlers, And, ambassadors of Christ!

Did I "miss it" somehow?
Thanks for your reply. I was referring to the Assemblies present role, while Israel is blinded. Thus, the following Scriptures:

1Pe_2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Rev_1:6 and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
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Is earth made new before or after the Millennial Reign? If you BEFORE, then everything I say is pointless to you. That simple.

As pointed out in my post, the Millennial Kingdom is on this present earth. All those that enter into the Kingdom are the survivors of the Tribulation. God's elect from that time period. Both Jew and Gentile. The elect, that have gone onto Glory, are in the Heavenly Mansion.
awelight,
My understanding is that at the time of Christ's return to this world, God's judgment will be levied upon the unsaved along with the destruction of the current heavens and earth, and be replaced with the new heavens and earth. The old will not be healed (so to speak). I therefore do not believe a Millennial Reign is possible. The key to, and confirmation of this can be found by looking at the seventh angel and the seventh (and last) trumpet. When it sounds, Christ will return and in proximity to that, these heavens, earth, and all who remain in them will be destroyed.
Please observe the following:

[1Th 4:16 17 KJV]
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[1Co 15:52 KJV]
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[Luk 21:33 KJV]
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

[Mat 13:39 KJV]
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

[Mat 24:33-35 KJV]
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

[2Pe 3:10 KJV]
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

[Rev 11:15-19 KJV]
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[Rev 10:7 KJV]
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

[Rev 11:15 KJV]
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[Rev 16:17-19 KJV]
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.


Sinners have been removed from earth and go into Judgement. Jerusalem will be rebuilt out from the destruction of the Tribulation days. Weapons will be turned into plows. Diseases will end. The Lord will bless the earth with proper weather and rains when needed. The Lord will Reign from Jerusalem. Those on the earth shall still be given in marriage and have children. The earth's population will increase rapidly. Death is rare and individuals live for a very long time. Judgement, is swift and permanent under the Lord's rule of Iron. While everyone, going into the Millennial Kingdom were saved individuals - their offspring still suffer from the sin nature. A nature passed on by flesh and blood. There is peace and rest upon the people of Earth. The population of this earth, will consist of both "flesh and blood" and "flesh and bone" In other words, Those still in human bodies and those in glorified bodies. Those in human bodies do not have access to the Heavenly aspect of the Kingdom - yet. Those in glorified bodies (OT, Assembly and Tribulation Martyrs - who have passed into life through the valley of the shadow of death.) move freely from Heaven to earth and back again.
So does this Israel have boundaries in the Millennial Kingdom? Yes. The boundaries promised by God. Is Jerusalem within those boundaries? Yes. I can't define it much better than this.
Respectfully, awelight, I think the reason you had difficulty with defining the boundaries of the nation of Israel is that no earthly Israel will exist after Christ's return. It will be spiritual, not physical in nature.
Eternal Israel is named the Israel of God : spiritual Israel

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[1Pe 2:10 KJV]
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Why is it that God chose to name the true Israel as the Israel of God and not just Israel? The reason
is that He wanted a distinction between eternal Israel to come with the current earthly Israel

Overall, I think the events as you describe them do not fit the salvation of the Bible. The Bible's salvation has only two two categories of people: those who have been saved and will live eternally, and those who are unsaved and will be destroyed. The same with heaven and earth: the new, eternal; the old, to be destroyed.

So, after positing this, I'm unsure of where we stand? Please feel free to reply.
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
856
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awelight,
My understanding is that at the time of Christ's return to this world, God's judgment will be levied upon the unsaved along with the destruction of the current heavens and earth, and be replaced with the new heavens and earth. The old will not be healed (so to speak). I therefore do not believe a Millennial Reign is possible. The key to, and confirmation of this can be found by looking at the seventh angel and the seventh (and last) trumpet. When it sounds, Christ will return and in proximity to that, these heavens, earth, and all who remain in them will be destroyed.
Please observe the following:

[1Th 4:16 17 KJV]
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[1Co 15:52 KJV]
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[Luk 21:33 KJV]
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

[Mat 13:39 KJV]
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

[Mat 24:33-35 KJV]
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

[2Pe 3:10 KJV]
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

[Rev 11:15-19 KJV]
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

[Rev 10:7 KJV]
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

[Rev 11:15 KJV]
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

[Rev 16:17-19 KJV]
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.






Respectfully, awelight, I think the reason you had difficulty with defining the boundaries of the nation of Israel is that no earthly Israel will exist after Christ's return. It will be spiritual, not physical in nature.
Eternal Israel is named the Israel of God : spiritual Israel

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
[1Pe 2:10 KJV]
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Why is it that God chose to name the true Israel as the Israel of God and not just Israel? The reason
is that He wanted a distinction between eternal Israel to come with the current earthly Israel

Overall, I think the events as you describe them do not fit the salvation of the Bible. The Bible's salvation has only two two categories of people: those who have been saved and will live eternally, and those who are unsaved and will be destroyed. The same with heaven and earth: the new, eternal; the old, to be destroyed.

So, after positing this, I'm unsure of where we stand? Please feel free to reply.
Sorry - Roger for the delay. I was called away on a Company emergency.

I am disappointed in that your response seems to be trying to use Scripture to dismiss Scripture. However, it could be that I misunderstand your intent. So let's bring this down to the brass tacks shall we?

We know with out a doubt, the Dragon and the Beast are related to the Tribulation days in the Book of Revelation:

Rev 13:4 and they worshipped the dragon, because he gave his authority unto the beast; and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? and who is able to war with him?
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.


Now knowing this and knowing that the reference to the Dragon goes beyond the Tribulation - Please give your understanding to the following section of Scripture:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and cast him into the abyss, and shut it, and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished: after this he must be loosed for a little time.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


If you ignore the fact of the Millennial Reign, then you have the Dragon going forth to deceive the nations, after the Heavens and Earth have been made new. Therefore, you have the Dragon tempting the unregenerate after death and hades have been destroyed. Additionally, you would have sin in the eternal Kingdom, since Rev. 21 & 22 is the picture of the eternal state of the Kingdom.

Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.


This takes place after the thousand years. Let us both, confine our comments to the previous text for the time being. If we can get past this area, then we can move on to other Scriptures.
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
438
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Sorry - Roger for the delay. I was called away on a Company emergency.
Hello awelight. Thank you for the reply and no problem re the timing - hope your emergency situation resolved ok. I'll review
your post and reply to you - we can take it from there. thanks Roger
 

rogerg

Active member
Jul 13, 2021
438
110
43
Sorry - Roger for the delay. I was called away on a Company emergency.
Hi awelight - now it's my turn to apologize for the delay. While I did become a little diverted due to other
discussions I've been having on the site, the bulk of my time has been spent in getting current again with
the Book of The Revelation. It's been a while since I've looked in-depth at it and it's not an easy book to
just jump into the middle of - so I'm having to refamiliarize myself and rethink it through before I can discuss
it with any insight. So, your patience is requested but I will definitely reply-- I just didn't want to leave you hanging - thx.
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
856
242
43
66
Hi awelight - now it's my turn to apologize for the delay. While I did become a little diverted due to other
discussions I've been having on the site, the bulk of my time has been spent in getting current again with
the Book of The Revelation. It's been a while since I've looked in-depth at it and it's not an easy book to
just jump into the middle of - so I'm having to refamiliarize myself and rethink it through before I can discuss
it with any insight. So, your patience is requested but I will definitely reply-- I just didn't want to leave you hanging - thx.
Hey, no problem. I was hoping we could discuss the subject openly. I was not looking for a rebuttal but simply how you presently see these verses. If you approach the subject as one wishing to defend the A-Millennial view point, then little can be gained. Same goes for myself. I was desiring a fresh and open dialogue to see how the views we both hold will stand the test of scrutiny.

In this endeavor, both of us, have to be willing to alter our viewpoints if Scripture shows that one or the other is in error. We both have to be willing to make mistakes and then learn from them. This is true edification.