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Yea your right, God predistined Simon Peter to look at the storm and fall into the water just so Jesus could lift him out of the water and amaze the other guys in the boat.
And you pay a internet service provider so you can join a Christian chat site and say what you have why because you have free will to do thus bound by sin, living with one foot in the world and one foot out.
everybody here including me have self free will to pay or not pay, join or not join, all kinds of things of this world.
everything is not written out handed to you on a silver plater in the bible, it takes faith to understand things of seek and you shall find, why because you learn and understand scripture properly when your not forced to comprehend it.
there are many many story's in the bible about man choosing his own ways and not God's ways.
And you pay a internet service provider so you can join a Christian chat site and say what you have why because you have free will to do thus bound by sin, living with one foot in the world and one foot out.
everybody here including me have self free will to pay or not pay, join or not join, all kinds of things of this world.
everything is not written out handed to you on a silver plater in the bible, it takes faith to understand things of seek and you shall find, why because you learn and understand scripture properly when your not forced to comprehend it.
there are many many story's in the bible about man choosing his own ways and not God's ways.
Ro 8:29-30
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
KJV
he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son This does NOT speak of predestination to election!
This says that those God foreknew will be made like Jesus.
This chapter does not address the basis of God's foreknowledge or His election.
Some of us believe that God bases His foreknowledge on our uninfluenced response to Jesus, while others believe in limited atonement.
This chapter is NOT a proof text for either side.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
KJV
he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son This does NOT speak of predestination to election!
This says that those God foreknew will be made like Jesus.
This chapter does not address the basis of God's foreknowledge or His election.
Some of us believe that God bases His foreknowledge on our uninfluenced response to Jesus, while others believe in limited atonement.
This chapter is NOT a proof text for either side.
Thanks for clarifying, and the above is biblical. We should then not deviate from this great truth in our further elaborations, but consistently apply it throughout our Gospel.
I don't see any non-believer falling into being called (bid, invited) as are the elect per Scriptures example. If so, they would by necessity also have to be foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified Romans 8:29-30, as we see this word called only referring to the elect with all the other parts of the chain of redemption included. That is the biblical doctrine of effectual calling as revealed in the Gospel. Thus they are not called in this same manner in the chain of redemption.
We also see this truth expressed in Matthew 11:25-31, God revealing to whom he will, as well the Son, then calling them. I see him then revealing to those he desires to save, and these all come to him. In fact, all the Father has given him will come to him.
Therefore the receiving is really not what clinches salvation, is it? It is not by choice or will, as we agree, so we must apply that consistently. It is the effectual call that saves, not based on choice or determinative will of man, John 1:13, Romans 9:16. James 1:18.
I see nowhere in Scripture where God opens the heart, grants faith and repentance, and revelation, and then the person rejects that ultimately. Lydia is one example, and I see no counter example to this.
Yes, I as well, in that it is both effectual and general.
I don't see any non-believer falling into being called (bid, invited) as are the elect per Scriptures example. If so, they would by necessity also have to be foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified Romans 8:29-30, as we see this word called only referring to the elect with all the other parts of the chain of redemption included. That is the biblical doctrine of effectual calling as revealed in the Gospel. Thus they are not called in this same manner in the chain of redemption.
We also see this truth expressed in Matthew 11:25-31, God revealing to whom he will, as well the Son, then calling them. I see him then revealing to those he desires to save, and these all come to him. In fact, all the Father has given him will come to him.
Therefore the receiving is really not what clinches salvation, is it? It is not by choice or will, as we agree, so we must apply that consistently. It is the effectual call that saves, not based on choice or determinative will of man, John 1:13, Romans 9:16. James 1:18.
I see nowhere in Scripture where God opens the heart, grants faith and repentance, and revelation, and then the person rejects that ultimately. Lydia is one example, and I see no counter example to this.
Yes, I as well, in that it is both effectual and general.
D
Correct, but then Romans wasn't really chapter and verses, was it? It was a full explanation of why God did what he did. And, in what we now call the 9th chapter, it does say "Jacob I loved but Esau I hated." (A quote from Malachi.) So then it does not depend on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy.
No human knows 100% the full extent of human free will but human free will is a necessary postulate if there is to be any synthesis of human life at all, for without it there can be no distinction between good and bad at all, but we do not really know more than that it is that hypothetical faculty in man by virtue of which he is a responsible agent.
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Ah the predestination debate it's been a while. Honestly I know that it's a never ending debate but I feel that it's still a valid one.
And my two cents is still the same as it has been in every predestination debate ever. Knowing father and his nature and knowing his love and his grace I find it very hard to believe that he would take the time to form his children in the womb taking great care in every detail about them simply so that no matter what they did in life or what path they chose they go to hell because well, it was predestined.
I mean if the elect are chosen before hand and only those who were predestined to be saved then who am I that I should be saved when another soul is bound for hell regardless? I am nothing special and am just as worthy of hell as anyone else. From what I have seen Jesus would have gone through what he did a thousand times over for even just a single lost soul, that is the love I saw in him and that is the love I seek even if it means I would burn in the very fires of hell itself for sake of even one lost soul no matter how evil or how bloodstained their souls are. Now if I am willing to seek such a dangerous kind of love how much farther do you think father is willing to go?
The flaw with predestination is that it limits his love, you can post all the scriptures you want but when you consider how far he is willing to go out of love for us does it not seem odd?
And my two cents is still the same as it has been in every predestination debate ever. Knowing father and his nature and knowing his love and his grace I find it very hard to believe that he would take the time to form his children in the womb taking great care in every detail about them simply so that no matter what they did in life or what path they chose they go to hell because well, it was predestined.
I mean if the elect are chosen before hand and only those who were predestined to be saved then who am I that I should be saved when another soul is bound for hell regardless? I am nothing special and am just as worthy of hell as anyone else. From what I have seen Jesus would have gone through what he did a thousand times over for even just a single lost soul, that is the love I saw in him and that is the love I seek even if it means I would burn in the very fires of hell itself for sake of even one lost soul no matter how evil or how bloodstained their souls are. Now if I am willing to seek such a dangerous kind of love how much farther do you think father is willing to go?
The flaw with predestination is that it limits his love, you can post all the scriptures you want but when you consider how far he is willing to go out of love for us does it not seem odd?
There is no debate. Its Scriptural,
They are naturally formed in the womb. Or are you directly blaming Him for downs syndrome?
No man is predestined to go to Hell. He goes there by his own choice.
So you are.. But if you are saved God chose you to be saved. Give Him the glory.
And He did it for each lost soul.
As you will never achieve His love your words are pure melodrama. Your imagination is running riot.
LOL you don't know what you are saying. You could not seek such a dangerous love even if you wanted to. Its pure melodrama,
How does it limit His love.?? And He said He had chosen us, not we ourselves. If He had not no one would be saved.
That is the wonder of God's love. It reaches the undeserving
They are naturally formed in the womb. Or are you directly blaming Him for downs syndrome?
No man is predestined to go to Hell. He goes there by his own choice.
So you are.. But if you are saved God chose you to be saved. Give Him the glory.
And He did it for each lost soul.
As you will never achieve His love your words are pure melodrama. Your imagination is running riot.
LOL you don't know what you are saying. You could not seek such a dangerous love even if you wanted to. Its pure melodrama,
How does it limit His love.?? And He said He had chosen us, not we ourselves. If He had not no one would be saved.
That is the wonder of God's love. It reaches the undeserving
In other words, what is being suggested here is that God maintains a double standard and two sets of books for accounting. Those who go to Heaven do NOT go by their own choice, but those who go to Hell do.
Also, you are contradicting the standard Reformed Statement of Faith (Westminster), which actually says that many are predestined to go to Hell (called "everlasting death", which corresponds to the second death, which corresponds to the Lake of Fire, which corresponds to eternal Hell).
Also, you are contradicting the standard Reformed Statement of Faith (Westminster), which actually says that many are predestined to go to Hell (called "everlasting death", which corresponds to the second death, which corresponds to the Lake of Fire, which corresponds to eternal Hell).
I do not know how to multi quote so I will try to respond to you the best I can. first yes it is a debate and is one of the most heated ones to have every existed on this forum, it is scriptural however due to how people understand the scriptures both sides can endlessly post verses that prove their point yet neither side ever yields.
As for my saying how he takes such great care in forming us in the womb this is where I learned it Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
and no I do not blame him for down syndrome and as for man choosing to go to hell he can't very well choose that if he was not predestined to be saved can he? and as for the rest of my delusions perhaps I never will obtain but I sure as heck am gonna give it my all to find out. If God says I can have them then I can promise you this there is no limits I won't go have them no matter what the cost no matter how long it takes no matter what i have go through or lose. I am not after just any kind of love I intend to see exactly how deep in his love we can truly go if I can test the limits and push the boundaries then I am going to and if I am delusional then at least it keeps me chasing after him in my delusions
As for my saying how he takes such great care in forming us in the womb this is where I learned it Psalm 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
and no I do not blame him for down syndrome and as for man choosing to go to hell he can't very well choose that if he was not predestined to be saved can he? and as for the rest of my delusions perhaps I never will obtain but I sure as heck am gonna give it my all to find out. If God says I can have them then I can promise you this there is no limits I won't go have them no matter what the cost no matter how long it takes no matter what i have go through or lose. I am not after just any kind of love I intend to see exactly how deep in his love we can truly go if I can test the limits and push the boundaries then I am going to and if I am delusional then at least it keeps me chasing after him in my delusions
E
How can you say this when you claim man has no choice. They have no free will to chose to recieve christ or deny him. Remembering as John said, he who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already.
A person goes to hell because of unbelief. If he had no ability to chose to say yes God, then he had no choice. His choice was decided for him
God wil get the glory for those who go to hell. Because he died for them also. He gave them the change, he did not force them to not believe, or keep them believeing,
Yep, every man woman and child who ever lived.
non responsive, Would be better to just not respond to this part of the message. Then to just throw a strawman out.
No one is deserving, so this statement defeats itself, if his love reaches the undeserving then it reaches all. Not just the ones who will be saved, This is impossible unless they have just as much a chance to reply yes as the ones who actually do.
A person goes to hell because of unbelief. If he had no ability to chose to say yes God, then he had no choice. His choice was decided for him
God wil get the glory for those who go to hell. Because he died for them also. He gave them the change, he did not force them to not believe, or keep them believeing,
Yep, every man woman and child who ever lived.
non responsive, Would be better to just not respond to this part of the message. Then to just throw a strawman out.
No one is deserving, so this statement defeats itself, if his love reaches the undeserving then it reaches all. Not just the ones who will be saved, This is impossible unless they have just as much a chance to reply yes as the ones who actually do.
O
I personally would Not take anything your teacher says as biblical. Hes Ignorant .
There are people like Paul who were predetermined to be saved.. When you say predestined, you're saying something that was agreed upon before the fact. Paul explains, that before the foundations of the age, he was chosen to do Gods will at this time, while he walked the earth Ephesians 1:4-6
. What is Gods will ? That no one should perish but have eternal life, as 2 Peter 3 states. What does John 3:16 say ?
There are some, who are predestined, to bring the flock into eternal life. This is not about some random scenario your teacher might want to paint to rectify his own unease ; about the variables of life and the choices people make probably to his chagrin ...
Stick with how Gods words say these things, as The scriptures outline Gods plans ...
There are people like Paul who were predetermined to be saved.. When you say predestined, you're saying something that was agreed upon before the fact. Paul explains, that before the foundations of the age, he was chosen to do Gods will at this time, while he walked the earth Ephesians 1:4-6
. What is Gods will ? That no one should perish but have eternal life, as 2 Peter 3 states. What does John 3:16 say ?
There are some, who are predestined, to bring the flock into eternal life. This is not about some random scenario your teacher might want to paint to rectify his own unease ; about the variables of life and the choices people make probably to his chagrin ...
Stick with how Gods words say these things, as The scriptures outline Gods plans ...
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Your hermeneutic is way off. You are saying God predetermined some and not others. When we say it, you say that God would be unfair in doing this, yet you just typed He predetermined some to get saved. Then if we say this, you say that God is no respecter of ppl, yet you just averred He is a respecter of ppl. So which is it? Your stance is just plain wishy-washy.