Predeterminism and free will

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Oct 25, 2018
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#61
Context is key, but the whole of the Bible testifies to man's ability to choose. It is only by reading the doctrine of inability into a handful of passages-namely Romans- that one can derive such a doctrine, and it is only by ignoring the constant pleas and exhortations for the jews to return to YHWH that such a doctrine can be established. There is an entirely disproportionate weight given to the writings of Paul in the last 4 centuries of western Christian thought that has created orthodoxies that are not fitting with the whole testament of Scripture.
And man chooses that which is most pleasing to him. The lost hate God, and will not choose Him. That’s the whole testimony of scripture.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#64
God has given mankind a free choice as to how mankind wants to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth, but has not given mankind a choice in being born again, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. he also has not given mankind a choice in his eternal deliverance.
Thank you for your opinions, but next time support with Scripture.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#66
According to Galatians 4 . Notice it says, now after that ye are known of God...That’s exactly what it says. .
Nope. It doesn't say that in Galatians 4:9. So it's not exactly what it says, it's what YOU said, not what God said. :)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#67
Nope. It doesn't say that in Galatians 4:9. So it's not exactly what it says, it's what YOU said, not what God said. :)
Do tell, what does it say?

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

But now, after that ye are known of God...
 

Benadam

Well-known member
Aug 14, 2019
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#68
A couple of examples of God offering His counsel. Why would God counsel man and why would God leave man to His own counsel if man's will were not free?

Psalm 107
Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:

Luke 7-30
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#69
Do tell, what does it say?

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

But now, after that ye are known of God...
Oh please. It still doesn't say what you want it to say.

Try harder? Bold a few less words? Or more words? Strain out a few more words in your precious perfect every word is pure KJB, don't leave out words like modern versions (like you've just done) to try to prove yourself correct? See your own hypocrisy? Open theist?

Why not just stop this foolishness of yours and man up for once and admit, well, you're wrong, and, well, you based another heresy of yours on your erroneous take on Scripture that doesn't say what you want it to say. Start there.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#70
I'd like to take this brief opportunity to say thank you to the CC users who contribute to my threads in a kind and gentle way.
I've started a number of threads that often address deep and complex questions, so thank you to those CC members who take the time to respond thoughtfully.

My question in this thread concerns predeterminism and free will.

My reading of the Bible is that everybody who will receive salvation has their name written in the book of life - right or wrong?

If this is true, and if God already knows who will reconcile with him through Jesus, how does this idea tally with free will?

Is free will Biblical?
While it is a very sensitive topic which requires maturity to be able to debate it is still one that needs to be understood so you have guts that is for sure:cool:
To be honest I have never found enough evidence for what I believe vs what the opposite can search up in the scriptures.

If you go to google you can easily find evidence for both sides free will vs predestination but here is my take on it.
We can find the evidence for our position but if we fail to take into consideration who God is and his pattern of doing things we can miss the mark.
God has all throughout the bible sent a warning before he does anything even in Noahs age he warned noah and Noah in turn warned the people, even though they didn't listen he still tried why is that?
Every time the Jews ran from God he always sent them a prophet to warn them to change their ways, even when Jesus came into the scene many would not accept his ways yet he still spoke to them and tried to teach them.

If in fact every person was born destined for heaven or hell then warning and trying to get them to change their ways is useless but God always did anyways. Not to mention the most obvious factor in that he is love and is the father. If you were a parent would you have children and decide which one was going to heaven or hell no matter what they chose in their decisions? Would you take the time to create them raise them and try to teach them if you already decided they were going to a final destination?

In my opinion the names in the book were never set in stone they names were added when one chose to accept him. Remember that salvation is called a gift and is never forced on us there is a good reason for that.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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#71
Context is key, but the whole of the Bible testifies to man's ability to choose. It is only by reading the doctrine of inability into a handful of passages-namely Romans- that one can derive such a doctrine, and it is only by ignoring the constant pleas and exhortations for the jews to return to YHWH that such a doctrine can be established. There is an entirely disproportionate weight given to the writings of Paul in the last 4 centuries of western Christian thought that has created orthodoxies that are not fitting with the whole testament of Scripture.
“I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, ‘Here am I, here am I,’ To a nation which did not call on My name.[Isaiah 65:1]

You keep harping about a choice, a choice, my kingdom for a choice.


Riddle me this.

1) How could these ppl choose God who did not ask for Him?
2) How could these ppl choose God who did not seek Him?
3) How could these ppl choose God who did not call on His name?
 
Oct 25, 2018
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#72
Oh please. It still doesn't say what you want it to say.

Try harder? Bold a few less words? Or more words? Strain out a few more words in your precious perfect every word is pure KJB, don't leave out words like modern versions (like you've just done) to try to prove yourself correct? See your own hypocrisy? Open theist?

Why not just stop this foolishness of yours and man up for once and admit, well, you're wrong, and, well, you based another heresy of yours on your erroneous take on Scripture that doesn't say what you want it to say. Start there.
He says that God did not literally know who His sons are until after they make the choice to become His son. By using his (il)logic, God is some sort of super bird, as Psalm 91:4 says He has wings.

#CluckCluck
 
Oct 25, 2018
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#73
If there was no free will then this would make no sense:

(Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live)
Given to God's covenant children, not all mankind indiscriminately.
 
Jan 17, 2020
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#74
Jesus was not a child of wrath. Jesus was born without sin. Jesus took our sin upon Himself to make atonement for our sin. If Jesus had been a child of wrath He could not have atoned for the sins of mankind.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
So God did not pour out his wrath on Jesus in place of the elect? "The lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world"?
 
Apr 21, 2020
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#75
While it is a very sensitive topic which requires maturity to be able to debate it is still one that needs to be understood so you have guts that is for sure:cool:
To be honest I have never found enough evidence for what I believe vs what the opposite can search up in the scriptures.

If you go to google you can easily find evidence for both sides free will vs predestination but here is my take on it.
We can find the evidence for our position but if we fail to take into consideration who God is and his pattern of doing things we can miss the mark.
God has all throughout the bible sent a warning before he does anything even in Noahs age he warned noah and Noah in turn warned the people, even though they didn't listen he still tried why is that?
Every time the Jews ran from God he always sent them a prophet to warn them to change their ways, even when Jesus came into the scene many would not accept his ways yet he still spoke to them and tried to teach them.

If in fact every person was born destined for heaven or hell then warning and trying to get them to change their ways is useless but God always did anyways. Not to mention the most obvious factor in that he is love and is the father. If you were a parent would you have children and decide which one was going to heaven or hell no matter what they chose in their decisions? Would you take the time to create them raise them and try to teach them if you already decided they were going to a final destination?

In my opinion the names in the book were never set in stone they names were added when one chose to accept him. Remember that salvation is called a gift and is never forced on us there is a good reason for that.
Thank you, I do have a knack for asking deep, complex or pertinent questions.

I genuinely don't know what to believe when it comes to predeterminism and free will.

You asked whether, if I were a parent, would I decide on my Child's final destination without knowing the choices they will make.
Of course not.
But I'm not God, and this I'm not omniscient.
Surely God's omniscience implies that he knows the choices each of us will make in advance?
I believe that this is the basis for predestination.

Any thoughts that might help me muddle my way through this?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
11,568
2,025
113
#76
Oh please. It still doesn't say what you want it to say.

Try harder? Bold a few less words? Or more words? Strain out a few more words in your precious perfect every word is pure KJB, don't leave out words like modern versions (like you've just done) to try to prove yourself correct? See your own hypocrisy? Open theist?

Why not just stop this foolishness of yours and man up for once and admit, well, you're wrong, and, well, you based another heresy of yours on your erroneous take on Scripture that doesn't say what you want it to say. Start there.
Then what exactly does it say? Let's discuss what it says. You're great at insults, but give little scriptural support.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
11,568
2,025
113
#77
So God did not pour out his wrath on Jesus in place of the elect? "The lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world"?
Actually, Jesus is God's elect.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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#78
He says that God did not literally know who His sons are until after they make the choice to become His son. By using his (il)logic, God is some sort of super bird, as Psalm 91:4 says He has wings.

#CluckCluck
First, he’s an open theist, a forbidden heresy on this site. Secondly, lots of his errors stem from the fact he cannot think critically or logically well enough so everything is either black or white.

The troubling thing is when he comes to his asinine conclusions he spreads his peacock feathers and says to others “I just happen to believe my Bible” as if others do not. Only God can wake him up, but according to him God probably doesn’t even know it’s going on.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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#79
Then what exactly does it say? Let's discuss what it says. You're great at insults, but give little scriptural support.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
It doesn’t say what you’ve twisted it to say. I haven’t insulted you, I’ve labelled you a heretic by your own heresies and have shown how you twisted a scripture to make it say something it does not say. Lose your slander.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
11,568
2,025
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#80
It doesn’t say what you’ve twisted it to say. I haven’t insulted you, I’ve labelled you a heretic by your own heresies and have shown how you twisted a scripture to make it say something it does not say. Lose your slander.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

What is now? What is now known? Who and by whom?