Preparation for the tribulation.

greenonions · 2025-01-18T00:35:59-0500

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The dead will "rise" = "resurrect". The living and the resurrected living will both be caught up together (caught up = raptured).

ewq1938 · 2025-01-18T01:29:33-0500

greenonions said:

No, it's all the living saints who are caught up together to be with those in the clouds who are Christ and his resurrected saints. The resurrected dead are not raptured because they are already with Jesus.

greenonions · 2025-01-18T02:21:20-0500

Regarding the dead in Christ:

1. When a Christian dies, he/she is away from the body and present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8)
2. When Jesus comes down from heaven to clouds, the spirits of the Christians could be with the Lord (1 Thess. 4:14)
3. When Jesus raises their bodies from the dead, their spirits will return to their bodies, and they will wake up (Luke 8:55)
4. Their bodies are in tombs or in the dust of the earth (John 5:28-29; Dan. 12:2). So their spirits will descend to the ground where their bodies are.
5. Then these resurrected believers will be brought back up to the clouds by angels, together with living believers (Matt. 24:31; 1 Thess. 4:17)

So yes, they are already with Jesus, but they will need to leave Jesus temporarily to go back to their bodies.

Psalm1 · 2025-01-18T11:19:44-0500

BOY said:

I will give it you.
I'd like to show you how I come to the conclusion that we were going to go through the Tribulation

The last Trumpet that sounds as the two end time Witnesses are raised from the dead in the clouds in revelation11 ?

Rev11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And we all know Jesus comes in the clouds at the last Trumpet

1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Cori15:51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation11 has everything it's got the right time period, the last 42 months, as the Holy City is given to the Gentiles. it's got the Resurrection/Rapture, the dead rising first. it's got them raised in the clouds. it's got the last trumpet. What more could you ask for? It's got everything you need to build a strong foundation, a firm foundation. It's got more than enough to build your house upon a rock.

And if that's right then Matthew 24 is right.

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days

shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, THEN the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And here is another one.

2 Thess2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That day cannot come except that man of sin be revealed, and sits in the Temple of God. and He cannot sit in the Temple of God and till the temple is built, and he doesn't sit in the temple until middle of the seven years

Daniel 11:36 and 37. Daniel 9:27.

Build your house upon a rock not on circumstantial evidence.

now show me what you built your house on. show me the pre tribulation foundation and stones that you built your house upon on this belief if you can.

The last trump is blown every year at the feast of trumpets.
So we both use that verse.
Ahem....you need at least ONE ACTUAL postrib verse.
So far you only provide verses that we both agree on.
Are you able to do what NO POSTRIBBER has ever done????
Provide one verse. One postrib RAPTURE VERSE.

Psalm1 · 2025-01-18T11:22:38-0500

BOY said:

And each one of our verses make your doctrine impossible.
You guys sit in ashes, with a destroyed doctrine and are oblivious to reality.

Ask yourself why you can not post a single verse pointing to a postrib rapture

Hello

Psalm1 · 2025-01-18T11:23:30-0500

greenonions said:

Regarding the dead in Christ:

1. When a Christian dies, he/she is away from the body and present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8)
2. When Jesus comes down from heaven to clouds, the spirits of the Christians could be with the Lord (1 Thess. 4:14)
3. When Jesus raises their bodies from the dead, their spirits will return to their bodies, and they will wake up (Luke 8:55)
4. Their bodies are in tombs or in the dust of the earth (John 5:28-29; Dan. 12:2). So their spirits will descend to the ground where their bodies are.
5. Then these resurrected believers will be brought back up to the clouds by angels, together with living believers (Matt. 24:31; 1 Thess. 4:17)

So yes, they are already with Jesus, but they will need to leave Jesus temporarily to go back to their bodies.

Yep.
No brainer.

greenonions · 2025-01-18T15:25:20-0500

Here is a single verse pointing to a postrib rapture:

Revelation 16:15 (NIV) “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

The context of the verse is the sixth bowl and Jesus is giving a warning about something that is going to happen very soon.

Jesus will come like a thief after the sixth bowl is poured out. The reference to the thief refers to Matthew 24:42-44, which is talking about Jesus coming an at unexpected time for the believers.

TheDivineWatermark · 2025-01-18T15:57:54-0500

greenonions said:

Revelation 16:14-16 (15), "Behold, *I* come AS A THIEF. [period]" is indeed a "SECOND COMING [to the earth]" passage (note: not a "Rapture / SNATCH [IN THE AIR]" passage).

Matthew 24:42-44 (45-51) likewise CORRESPONDS [/is parallel passage to] that found in Luke 12:36,37,38,40-42,43-45,46-48 where v.36 states explicitly: "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (THEN "the meal [G347; see also this Greek word used in Mt8:11 and parallel, re: the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age]" per v.37 of Lk12)--This means He will be "RETURNING" [to the earth] at that point as an "ALREADY-WED" Bridegroom (which agrees with what Rev shows us also: MARRIAGE first (UP THERE); then "wedding FEAST / SUPPER [aka EARTHLY MK AGE] commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19).

[see Col3:4 also ^ ]

Pre-tribbers (such as myself) AGREE that Matt24:29-31(42-51) PARALLELS not only Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (note: WHO [Rom11:27 / Dan9:24 parts]) but also Revelation 16:14-16 (Armageddon time-slot--His "RETURN [TO THE EARTH]") as well as Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-48 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" ! (this is / these are NOT "Rapture / SNATCH [G726]" passages, but SECOND COMING TO THE EARTH passages, FOR the commencement of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age [and who it is who will ENTER that time-period, in their mortal bodies [capable of reproducing / bearing children])

greenonions · 2025-01-18T16:52:50-0500

Hi TheDivineWatermark. Your argument is focused on the wedding. Let me offer a few points:

1. Although Luke 12:36 does talk about a wedding, other parables talk about a man travelling to a far country and returning (Matthew 25:14; Luke 19:12). The common theme is that the master is away for a long time. This time span represents the time from Jesus' ascension to heaven until His return to earth. Did Jesus go to the wedding at His ascension? No. The parable points to a major idea, but like any metaphor, there are similarities and differences compared to the actual thing.

2. There is another parable where the wedding happens comes after Jesus arrives for the people who are waiting for him (Matthew 25:10)

3. The marriage of the Lamb is announced in Revelation 19:7, after the seven bowls. Only then was the bride ready.

If you are saying that the thief passage and parables about the master coming at an unexpected time do not refer to the rapture of believers, then why would pre-tribbers say that Jesus will come at an unexpected time?

TheDivineWatermark · 2025-01-18T17:26:38-0500

greenonions said:

greenonions, You may be misunderstanding me.

I'm saying that Luke 12 talks about what happens AFTER "the marriage" itself... that being "the meal [G347]" AKA "the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (i.e. "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER"), commencing upon His "RETURN [TO THE EARTH]"; I'm saying that this Luke12 passage is PARALLEL TO your passage you referred to: Matt24:42-44 (i.e. vv. 42-51);

IOW, He is RETURNING TO THE EARTH in these contexts (not "rapturing / snatching" anyone IN THE AIR, TO the meeting of the Lord UP THERE. No.)

Same for Matthew 25:1-13 (see v.1's reference to "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" [that's EARTHLY-located]), and vv. 14-30 (with its own parallel passage you point out: Luke 19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"--when he will deal out responsibilities having to do with "have thou authority over 10 cities: and "likewise be thou over 5 cities"... where "cities" are located ON THE EARTH);

These are "SON OF MAN *cometh / coming of / shall come / etc*" passages, ALL having to do with His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, commencing upon His "RETURN" THERE (to the EARTH).

So to your question.

Verses related to "but of that day and hour KNOWETH no man" (not even Jesus, at that time)... "KNOW" is in the "PERFECT indicative" (this is NOT saying no one CAN or WILL EVER know! NO!). The CONTEXT is His Second Coming TO THE EARTH; but ever since Jesus' ascension / glorification / exultation, HE HAS KNOWN PERFECTLY... and some 60+ years LATER He disclosed FURTHER INFORMATION regarding THAT Subject in The Revelation (see v.1:1 saying this very thing!)

This means that, anyone finding themselves IN that future "7 yr period" which is the LEAD-UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19) SHOULD be able to understand fairly accurately as to WHEN He is expected to do so... IF they will but HEED HIS WORD (and those bringing it, at the time)... but as we know from what Scripture informs us, many will NOT heed His word (just as in Noah's day, which is what Matt24:37-39 and Lk17:26-27 are making a point to say)... the unbelievers did NOT heed God's Word via Noah, and thus suffered the flood-judgment.

Hope this helps you see my perspective.

Oh, and welcome to CC! I se you're fairly new here. Hope to see you around the boards. = )

ewq1938 · 2025-01-18T17:31:09-0500

greenonions said:

Paul said the new spiritual body is in heaven so there is no going back to old bodies for the saved.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved humans body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.
Paul knew he wasn't returning to his old body.

He speaks of the mortal body being dissolved and a new body that is waiting in heaven. Clearly that is not bringing the dissolved body back to life and changing it which would eliminate the need for the new body in heaven that he mentions.

2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.

TheDivineWatermark · 2025-01-18T17:43:10-0500

ewq1938 said:

So your whole point is that "the DEAD IN Christ" has ZERO to do with "resurrection" (of which our Lord Jesus Christ was a Proto-Type)??

... where "resurrection" MEANS "to stand again [on the earth]" (after having physically / bodily died [/sleep through Jesus]"_

I thoroughly disagree with such notion (as does Paul).

"FOR THIS corruptible [that's the DEAD IN Christ component] *MUST* put-on incorruption...*and* THIS mortal [that's the we which are ALIVE component] must put-on immortality" v.53, and the next verse says "when" they shall have... ALL OF THIS TAKES PLACE at the "IN A MOMENT, in the twinkling of an eye [a very specific point in time], at the last trumpet... AND WE SHALL BE CHANGED" the text states (that's BOTH components of the "ONE BODY" / "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY").

What you are saying is that "the DEAD IN Christ" don't get resurrected, i.e. that their old bodies REMAIN IN THE GRAVES (and this is because you don't grasp what the words "shall RISE first" means, NOR what the words explicitly state by saying "caught-up / snatched TOGETHER WITH THEM" (meaning, in ONE SNATCH-ACTION... TOGETHER at the SAME TIME)

ewq1938 · 2025-01-18T17:52:57-0500

TheDivineWatermark said:

My point is Paul taught thew new body is in heaven so there is no going back to old bodies at the resurrection of life. The resurrection happens in heaven, not on Earth.

TheDivineWatermark · 2025-01-18T17:56:54-0500

ewq1938 said:

Is that where Jesus' Resurrection happened? No.

"THIS corruptible MUST *put-on* incorruption..." (1Cor15:53) THIS part of the sentence pertains to "the DEAD IN Christ" (it involves their BODIES... bodily-resurrected!)

"resurrection" = "TO STAND AGAIN [on the earth]" (that's its biblical definition)

[it is AFTER "the DEAD IN Christ shall RISE [/be bodily-resurrected] first" that they and the still-ALIVE component will be "caught up / SNATCHED"... *TOGETHER WITH* means that!!]

TheDivineWatermark · 2025-01-18T18:03:03-0500

^ to go with that last point, see:

" In 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and 1 Thessalonians 5:10, where ἅμα is followed by σύν, ἅμα is an adverb (at the same time) and must be joined to the verb. "

--BlueLetterBible https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g260/kjv/tr/0-1/ [bold mine]

"caught-up / snatched TOGETHER WITH them" (means that both components will experience the SNATCH [verb] at the SAME TIME, i.e. verb-actioned "TOGETHER WITH them"...).

Your suggestion that "the DEAD IN Christ" will NOT experience "our Rapture / SNATCH" (that aspect) is not accurate according to Scripture itself.

TheDivineWatermark · 2025-01-18T18:20:54-0500

BOY said:

Hello again, BOY,

Let's look at the text itself.

Revelation Chapter 11 (as you suggest).

Tell me where you read of the "7th Trumpet [which you are calling "the LAST trump"] being what it is that calls these "2 Witnesses" up to heaven.

Yes, the text states they ascend up to heaven. But WHERE was it stated IN THE TEXT that this was the "7th Trumpet"??

I'm not seeing that stated nor alluded to, anywhere, as you suggest it does.

A third grader, taking a "reading comprehension test" would not come up with that anywhere in the text either, I would say.

It is only after they ascend up to heaven, and after the earthquake (etc,) that the text further goes on to say (OF ALL of that, which just took place), "the SECOND WOE [associated with the SIXTH TRUMPET, per 8:13!] IS PAST." That's PRIOR TO "the 7th Trumpet [/ 3rd Woe]" which you are insisting ALREADY SOUNDED (to call them UP).

And that leads me to another question. WHY are the "2W" ascending TO HEAVEN when Jesus is (at this point, supposedly) RETURNING TO THE EARTH at the time of His "RETURN" (FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age, aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" [Matt25:1,10], aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER"... etc)?? This would make no sense, really.

ChristRoseFromTheDead · 2025-01-18T18:25:05-0500

TheDivineWatermark said:

Because the bowls of wrath are getting ready to be poured out and earth is not the place for God's people to be at that time. They will watch from above

ewq1938 · 2025-01-18T18:35:42-0500

TheDivineWatermark said:

Jesus was to resurrect on Earth back into his old body. That is not how the resurrection of the dead in Christ happens. They resurrect in heaven where their new bodies are.

TheDivineWatermark · 2025-01-18T18:37:53-0500

ChristRoseFromTheDead said:

The text states (of those), "for IN THEM the wrath of God IS COMPLETED" (note: NOT "is STARTED *and* COMPLETED"). COMPARE this Greek word ('is completed') USED ELSEWHERE in Revelation, in the same way!

These are also called, "the seven LAST PLAGUES" (and "the plagues that are WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK" are promised to those who... well, read what 22:18 says, "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:" I would guess those would also involve the ones occurring during the "2W's 1260-days" which I believe STRADDLE the two halves and run concurrently with 6 of the 7 Trumpet-judgments [1-6] "...and to smite the earth WITH ALL PLAGUES, as often as they will" 11:6 [so all together, THAT totals like 3/4 of the 7-yr period, or thereabouts)

Armegeddon time-slot takes place at the time surrounding His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (the point in time when y'all are suggesting He "RAPTURES" us UP). The LEAD-UP TO that point is the Vials PREPARING for Armaggedon, not FOLLOWING it.
Thus, this makes ZERO SENSE to me!

TheDivineWatermark · 2025-01-18T18:39:16-0500

ewq1938 said:

That's not what "MUST *put-on*" means, in that sentence. IOW, it INVOLVES the old body (now ITSELF *CHANGED*)

Phil3:21 - "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."

["we shall be changed" refers to BOTH components of the "ONE BODY / Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... not just the "ALIVE" ones at the time being spoken of]

Preparation for the tribulation.

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