Problems with the Missouri Synod Lutheran Chrurch.

[SarahM777]

I REPEAT TO THOSE WHO ASCRIBE TO LUTHERAN DOCTRINE

None of what you have said changes the fact that Lutherans believe in baptismal regeneration or that there is no regeneration of the soul without water baptism (which also includes infants). If you adhere to their doctrine then you also believe in the same and that is a dangerous doctrine that has misled many to believe in a false gospel. If you do not believe in baptismal regeneration as the Lutheran's teach, then you are contrary and if contrary why do you support their doctrine? Baptismal regeneration takes away from any sinner the promise of being justified by faith when they believe upon Christ and it minimizes as secondary the work of the cross and the blood of Christ. Infants, who have not reached the age of accountability and do not have a capacity to come under conviction of the Spirit, are covered by the blood of Christ where sin and sins were paid for and crucified. When they reach that age and come under conviction through the preaching of the gospel they can believe and be saved and justified by the blood that covered them as an infant and now has cleansed them from all sin including purging the conscience from dead works. That's not hard to understand now is it?

So then Brad if it's not regeneration in baptism how do explain away this verse

Romans 6

3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Why in that verse does Paul plainly say that through baptism something happens to do what? Does he not plainly say in baptism we can live a NEW LIFE. Paul that it's in baptism. You can't ignore that verse nor make it go away because it does not fit your theology. We can only live a new life by regeneration. Paul very plainly says it's in baptism. (Which still is a work of the Holy Spirit by faith) Again please show us where the Bible says baptism is ONLY an outward sign of an inward change? You can't because it's NOT THERE. There is a working of the Holy Spirit by faith in baptism. You want to make it nothing more then a little ritual with no working of the Holy Spirit at all.

 

[zone]

So then Brad if it's not regeneration in baptism how do explain away this verse

Romans 6

3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Why in that verse does Paul plainly say that through baptism something happens to do what? Does he not plainly say in baptism we can live a NEW LIFE. Paul that it's in baptism. You can't ignore that verse nor make it go away because it does not fit your theology. We can only live a new life by regeneration. Paul very plainly says it's in baptism. (Which still is a work of the Holy Spirit by faith) Again please show us where the Bible says baptism is ONLY an outward sign of an inward change? You can't because it's NOT THERE. There is a working of the Holy Spirit by faith in baptism. You want to make it nothing more then a little ritual with no working of the Holy Spirit at all.

2 Kings 5
13Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, "My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, 'Wash, and be clean '?" 14So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean.

John 2
7Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8And he said to them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the feast.” So they took it. 9When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom 10and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.”

...

5His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

 

[nathan3]

We should study the Bible instead of each-others churches.


I am against sowing discord among brothers & sisters simply because they attend different churches that do not teach scriptures the same as you were taught .

We do not all attend the same church with the same pastor and we never will .

By the time we have called out each others church on what "we thing is wrong " ( mostly in our ignorance ), we would be a more divided; then brought together in truth ,we could have been learning instead.

And learning that truth, would arm each-other to make up our own minds on what church to attend or not. We need to stop getting into these kinds of traps and let God's words be the judge .

Lets practice peace in the many memberd body of Christ. Lets leave aside discord .


Proverbs 6:16-19

 

[zone]

We should study the Bible instead of each-others churches.


I am against sowing discord among brothers & sisters simply because they attend different churches that do not teach scriptures the same as you were taught .

We do not all attend the same church with the same pastor and we never will .

By the time we have called out each others church on what "we thing is wrong " ( mostly in our ignorance ), we would be a more divided; then brought together in truth ,we could have been learning instead.

And learning that truth, would arm each-other to make up our own minds on what church to attend or not. We need to stop getting into these kinds of traps and let God's words be the judge .

Lets practice peace in the many memberd body of Christ. Lets leave aside discord .


Proverbs 6:16-19

do you see a lack of Scriptural references (studying the Bible) in this thread?

 

[nathan3]

do you see a lack of Scriptural references (studying the Bible) in this thread?

Your probably right that there is a lack of that; much like most of the threads of this nature...

But I have not bothered to look through all of it. I think we should be avoiding it all together So I did not waste my time.

You defiantly wont be getting any grief from me because of the church you attend; or what they teach.

Bible studies and God's word will reveal if there is something lacking in these areas. And that can convict us individually to take necessary actions in our lives. We dont need to name call and point fingers at each other in the many member-ed body of Christ.

Again God's word is more then capable of judging what alines to what is written on its own as its studied.

 

[zone]

Your probably right that there is a lack of that; much like most of the threads of this nature...

But I have not bothered to look through all of it.

no, there is not a lack of scriptural references.
Bible study.

But you have not bothered to look through all of it

nathan, you're more concerned that SC not come up...some have questions about LCMS - they are being addressed.

 

[nathan3]

no, there is not a lack of scriptural references.
Bible study.

But you have not bothered to look through all of it

nathan, you're more concerned that SC not come up...some have questions about LCMS - they are being addressed.

Sorry I bothered to come to your aid, from the Original post of this Thread by RedTent. That was an error on my part. It will not happen again.

..But I stand by what I said regardless..

 

[zone]

You defiantly wont be getting any grief from me because of the church you attend; or what they teach.

i lost count of the number of times i've read you write:

- no one teaches all of God's Word today
- all listening to traditions of men
- famine for God's Word today because of preachers (who beg for money)

etc.

so please.....
i dont wanna get all the SC scripted stuff. we had enuff of that yesterday.

 

[nathan3]

i lost count of the number of times i've read you write:

- no one teaches all of God's Word today
- all listening to traditions of men
- famine for God's Word today because of preachers (who beg for money)

etc.

so please.....
i dont wanna get all the SC scripted stuff. we had enuff of that yesterday.

Have I ever called anyone out by name, or church , of a fellow Christian ? The answer is no. All my Threads & Posts are public...

..And those S.C. attack/gossip/smear threads showed themselves for what they truly were.. Many peoples eyes were open to the hypocrisy of them and lack of coherent thought.

 

[zone]

Sorry I bothered to come to your aid, from the Original post of this Thread by RedTent. That was an error on my part. It will not happen again.

But I stand by what I said regardless.

well thanks for coming to (my)? aid. i wasn't named in the OP...though it's true LCMS was.
people have questions and concerns.

they are being addressed.

that's how it works.

just like people's concerns about Arnold Murray's church - they will be addressed...one way or another.

 

[zone]

And have I ever called anyone out by name or church of a fellow Christian ? The answer is no. All my posts are public.

so what?
that's what Arnold tells his students to do - don't use names.
that's because he doesn't want his brought up.
gossip sites - but nathan, those gossip sites are not gossip sites.

they are apologetics ministries who ALL say your preacher is teaching serious ERROR.
you say he's not, and that's fine.

but you saying he's not doesn't mean he isn't...or that it shouldn't be discussed.

ALL teachings are up for review. ALL.

 

[nathan3]

so what?
that's what Arnold tells his students to do - don't use names.
that's because he doesn't want his brought up.
gossip sites - but nathan, those gossip sites are not gossip sites.

they are apologetics ministries who ALL say your preacher is teaching serious ERROR.
you say he's not, and that's fine.

but you saying he's not doesn't mean he isn't...or that it shouldn't be discussed.

ALL teachings are up for review. ALL.

So what ? Have fun with that. You don't seem to think sowing discord and strife among the many member-ed body of Christ is a issue today.. Most of these threads either have to do with things remotely having to do with scripture, or having to do with attacking other Christians for one judgmental ignorant reason or the other.

 

[SarahM777]

So what ? Have fun with that. You don't seem to think sowing discord and strife among the many member-ed body of Christ is a issue today.

UMMM Just because one says they are a Christian does that make them one?

 

[zone]

So what ? Have fun with that. You don't seem to think sowing discord and strife among the many member-ed body of Christ is a issue today.

okay...i guess i'll spell it out.

i am not entirely certain extremists who believe that junk Murray teaches are part of the church.

do what you want with that.

 

[nathan3]

okay...i guess i'll spell it out.

i am not entirely certain extremists who believe that junk Murray teaches are part of the church.

do what you want with that.

You really cant help yourself. One day its Murray, today its Joseph Prince, the next day its some one else. One just need look at your Posts and threads to tally how many churches you have attacked so far; that do not aline to your perfect all knowing standard of Biblical understanding.

One has to wonder if that is in accord with the teachings we hold as our standard of loving one to another. I say let God be the judge. We already have so much divisions in Christianity without its members attacking each other on top of the confusion .

 

[maxwel]

so what?
that's what Arnold tells his students to do - don't use names.
that's because he doesn't want his brought up.
gossip sites - but nathan, those gossip sites are not gossip sites.

they are apologetics ministries who ALL say your preacher is teaching serious ERROR.
you say he's not, and that's fine.

but you saying he's not doesn't mean he isn't...or that it shouldn't be discussed.

ALL teachings are up for review. ALL.

Nathan,

This is how things should be, and it's also a biblical principle.

The Bereans encountered new doctrines, and they searched the scripture, and discussed, and debated.
They were very serious about discussing doctrine, and getting at the truth.
God called them "noble" for doing this.

I disagree with Zone about lots of things.
But I respect her for diligently searching the scripture, diligently looking for truth in all things, and diligently articulating her points.
This is, biblically, a mark of integrity.
There are many people here who disagree, but who all try to approach the scripture, and truth, the same way.
I can respect, and love, many people here with whom I disagree.

It is noble, and good, and right to search the scripture and discuss doctrine.

Any leader, or church, that is averse to having their doctrine examined publically...
well, that isn't biblical, and it would seem to indicate something is wrong.

 

[nathan3]

Nathan,

This is how things should be, and it's also a biblical principle.

The Bereans encountered new doctrines, and they searched the scripture, and discussed, and debated.
They were very serious about discussing doctrine, and getting at the truth.
God called them "noble" for doing this.

I disagree with Zone about lots of things.
But I respect her for diligently searching the scripture, diligently looking for truth in all things, and diligently articulating her points.
This is, biblically, a mark of integrity.
There are many people here who disagree, but who all try to approach the scripture, and truth, the same way.
I can respect lots of people here with whom I disagree.

It is noble, and good, and right to search the scripture and discuss doctrine.

Any leader, or church, that is averse to having their doctrine examined publically...
well, that isn't biblical, and it would seem to indicate something is wrong.

Luke 6:37


Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


The Bereans studied scriptures, They did not study each other.

 

[zone]

Luke 6:37


Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


The Bereans studied scriptures, They did not study each other.

does your pastor teach "God does not know who will be saved, nor does He want to know"?

 

[nathan3]

Act's 12: 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

13 But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.

You have one group, studying the scriptures. And another causing a stir against them. The Bereans are shown searching what ? The scriptures . The others, are studying each-other with don't do this, and don't do that.


Which group is more likely to fall in line with threads targeting other Christians ?

 

[nathan3]

does your pastor teach "God does not know who will be saved, nor does He want to know"?

He teaches that is the business of Christ of who is Saved and who is not. That is between God and the individual, Not for us to judge.