Proper Water Baptism procedure....

[Ricke]

Whoever says "oneness" started in 1914-1916 is full of hot air.
Then some of you are quoting early church "fathers" as if all truth lies in their statements.

This is what the basic problem I see here. Everyone can quote whatever their Church teaches, Yet have no complete knowledge of scriptures by cross checking this and that to fully understand what scriptures actually teach us versus commonly held beleifs.

I don't care how much religious education a person has, unless God reveals it unto you through his Spirit, and shows it to you, you can go to Seminary and Bible college 25 years and still never see it. Please read Luke 24 v 45 to prove my point.

I have explained this in thorough detail post after post, so far we have two others besides me who understand what scriptures state, and several others who would rather waste time trying to discredit churches such as UPC or other churches who teach and prove this. We must go by scriptures and what was taught inside those scriptures. Do you think for one moment The Almighty God we all love would allow his Original Apostles to pervert what he said to teach and do?

God knew Satan was going to massacre God's word so God made sure his Original Apostles full of his Spirit had it all down and written right before they were murdered, or died.

Everybody wants to quote Matthew 28 v 19, but cannot answer a simple question I pose; show me one tiny verse where anyone ever was Baptized in Father, Son, Holy Ghost?? "Well, we would rather obey what Jesus said to do"! Me too. And beginning with Acts 2 v 38 that is exactly what Peter and Paul and the others did, they obeyed what Jesus told them to do in Matthew 28 v 19....they Baptized "IN THE NAME OF......." they knew JESUS is the Name he told them to Baptize in, and did so. No disobedience by any Original Apostle.

If you can show us one example again, where Water Baptism was ever performed in the scriptures in "Father, Son, Holy Ghost" then show it to us. If you cannot, then stop living in denial and coming up with every excuse and dis- crediting Us, or The Original Church and playing the role of Devil's advocate.

Sorry, it is Air tight...I love y'all anyway. Not here to start trouble nor pick arguments. God does not want us squabbling with each other, most especially his word, which is solid.....

 

[Shard]

You're right God does not want us squabbling over His Word, he also does not want you falsifying it and leading people astray with your oneness teachings.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Whoever says "oneness" started in 1914-1916 is full of hot air.
Then some of you are quoting early church "fathers" as if all truth lies in their statements.

This is what the basic problem I see here. Everyone can quote whatever their Church teaches, Yet have no complete knowledge of scriptures by cross checking this and that to fully understand what scriptures actually teach us versus commonly held beleifs.

I don't care how much religious education a person has, unless God reveals it unto you through his Spirit, and shows it to you, you can go to Seminary and Bible college 25 years and still never see it. Please read Luke 24 v 45 to prove my point.

I have explained this in thorough detail post after post, so far we have two others besides me who understand what scriptures state, and several others who would rather waste time trying to discredit churches such as UPC or other churches who teach and prove this. We must go by scriptures and what was taught inside those scriptures. Do you think for one moment The Almighty God we all love would allow his Original Apostles to pervert what he said to teach and do?

God knew Satan was going to massacre God's word so God made sure his Original Apostles full of his Spirit had it all down and written right before they were murdered, or died.

Everybody wants to quote Matthew 28 v 19, but cannot answer a simple question I pose; show me one tiny verse where anyone ever was Baptized in Father, Son, Holy Ghost?? "Well, we would rather obey what Jesus said to do"! Me too. And beginning with Acts 2 v 38 that is exactly what Peter and Paul and the others did, they obeyed what Jesus told them to do in Matthew 28 v 19....they Baptized "IN THE NAME OF......." they knew JESUS is the Name he told them to Baptize in, and did so. No disobedience by any Original Apostle.

If you can show us one example again, where Water Baptism was ever performed in the scriptures in "Father, Son, Holy Ghost" then show it to us. If you cannot, then stop living in denial and coming up with every excuse and dis- crediting Us, or The Original Church and playing the role of Devil's advocate.

Sorry, it is Air tight...I love y'all anyway. Not here to start trouble nor pick arguments. God does not want us squabbling with each other, most especially his word, which is solid.....

First, you say that the "oneness" doctrine preceded 1914, but then say it doesn't matter what the early church writers said. You are saying that the Original Church believed the onenesss doctrine but all the evidence goes against it.

Then you say that only by revelation will you understand it.

Then you say that I am trying to discredit the UPC, when all I did was to type out parts of the UPC statement of fundamentals.

I would like you to show us a baptism where they used "the Lord Jesus Christ". All of the statements that you use say either the Lord Jesus or Jesus Christ. Which is it and why?

 

[forerunner]

You're right God does not want us squabbling over His Word, he also does not want you falsifying it and leading people astray with your oneness teachings.

No one is lead astray by thre Oneness teaching, but they have been led astray by people who think it is ok to support those that support killing babies.

 

[forerunner]

First, you say that the "oneness" doctrine preceded 1914, but then say it doesn't matter what the early church writers said. You are saying that the Original Church believed the onenesss doctrine but all the evidence goes against it.

Of course it preceded t1914. It is what Jesus and the apostles taught.

Then you say that only by revelation will you understand it.

We can receive no truth of scripture with out the revelatory guidance of the Holy Spirit

I would like you to show us a baptism where they used "the Lord Jesus Christ". All of the statements that you use say either the Lord Jesus or Jesus Christ. Which is it and why?

Do you mean by the apostles in scripture? Thats easy, haven;t you read the bible? Try these 3

Acts 8 :16 For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Ricke]

The early Church Fathers are not the Original Apostles and what they dutifully recorded in Scripture is what I said. Another words if it is'nt recorded in The scriptures, then do not trust it. This is how our Adversary keeps things stirred up.
"Yea, hath God SAID......"? Genesis 3 v 1. Or "Yea, did The Apostles really teach God's Word?".

Unless you can show me one verse in Scripture where anyone was ever Water Baptized in The 3 Titles then my friends you are simply running into a brick wall. Instead of arguing go read it for yourself. As far as if it was "In the Name of The Lord Jesus" or "Name of Jesus" or Name of the Lord" what is the difference? The question is where does it say "Father, Son, Holy Ghost".?????? Where did anyone actually receive that said over them...? You know if you took Bible evidence against heresay conjecture ., or "I personally beleive....." into a court of Law a Defense lawyer would eat you up. Or how about "Saint so and so declared this....." then the defense attorney shows the Jury what Peter and Paul said......you'd be toast by the time the defense attorney got through with your beleifs.

Why not read the following two chapters and verses to see what Paul said to us."us" meaning everyone here no matter what Church you attend.

Galatians 1 v 8 "If anyone bring you ANY OTHER GOSPEL then the one we have brought you EVEN An Angel from Heaven, LET THEM BE ACCURSED"

So, since Paul Baptized the former disciples John The Baptist in The Name of Jesus, we should not beleive Paul, and wallow in our own self delusion.? ( read; Acts 19 v 1-7). I'm done guys, beleive whatever you care to, maybe The Easter Bunny and Santa do come....tsk tsk.

 

[forerunner]

I would like you to show us a baptism where they used "the Lord Jesus Christ". All of the statements that you use say either the Lord Jesus or Jesus Christ. Which is it and why?

I just re-read you statement and realize what you said. Wow now you are really nic-picking. You can baptize people in the name of Jesus, the Lord Jesus, Jesus Christ, or the Lord Jesus Christ it is all the same. Matter of fact you can say in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit if you want to. After that singular name is Jesus.

 

[forerunner]

Whoever says "oneness" started in 1914-1916 is full of hot air.
Then some of you are quoting early church "fathers" as if all truth lies in their statements.

This is what the basic problem I see here. Everyone can quote whatever their Church teaches, Yet have no complete knowledge of scriptures by cross checking this and that to fully understand what scriptures actually teach us versus commonly held beleifs.

I don't care how much religious education a person has, unless God reveals it unto you through his Spirit, and shows it to you, you can go to Seminary and Bible college 25 years and still never see it. Please read Luke 24 v 45 to prove my point.

I have explained this in thorough detail post after post, so far we have two others besides me who understand what scriptures state, and several others who would rather waste time trying to discredit churches such as UPC or other churches who teach and prove this. We must go by scriptures and what was taught inside those scriptures. Do you think for one moment The Almighty God we all love would allow his Original Apostles to pervert what he said to teach and do?

God knew Satan was going to massacre God's word so God made sure his Original Apostles full of his Spirit had it all down and written right before they were murdered, or died.

Everybody wants to quote Matthew 28 v 19, but cannot answer a simple question I pose; show me one tiny verse where anyone ever was Baptized in Father, Son, Holy Ghost?? "Well, we would rather obey what Jesus said to do"! Me too. And beginning with Acts 2 v 38 that is exactly what Peter and Paul and the others did, they obeyed what Jesus told them to do in Matthew 28 v 19....they Baptized "IN THE NAME OF......." they knew JESUS is the Name he told them to Baptize in, and did so. No disobedience by any Original Apostle.

If you can show us one example again, where Water Baptism was ever performed in the scriptures in "Father, Son, Holy Ghost" then show it to us. If you cannot, then stop living in denial and coming up with every excuse and dis- crediting Us, or The Original Church and playing the role of Devil's advocate.

Sorry, it is Air tight...I love y'all anyway. Not here to start trouble nor pick arguments. God does not want us squabbling with each other, most especially his word, which is solid.....

Ricke you are right on Oneness is the teaching of scripture. who else taught what really is irrelevant.

 

[Ricke]

Forerunner

Thank you Brother The very ones arguing are in The same Religion I came out of. I was Baptized in Father, Son, Holy Ghost when I was 1 month old. Nice feel good ceremony for The family but no Salvation in it. Baptizing Babies or little kids was never taught in The first century church either.

Here is why; Jesus said in Mark 16 v 16 "He that BELEIVES and is Baptized Shall be saved. But he that beleive not shall be D******." Show me a Baby or 5 year old even who knows how to Beleive as in Accepting the Lord And having to Repent first...

 

[Shard]

So, since Paul Baptized the former disciples John The Baptist in The Name of Jesus, we should not beleive Paul, and wallow in our own self delusion.? ( read; Acts 19 v 1-7). I'm done guys, beleive whatever you care to, maybe The Easter Bunny and Santa do come....tsk tsk.

You fail right here since John the Baptist was dead well before Paul started his ministry. So do you even really know the Bible or only pieces that support your false teachings?

Matthew 14:1-12
1At that time Herod the tetrarch heard the reports about Jesus, 2and he said to his attendants, "This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him." 3Now Herod had arrested John and bound him and put him in prison because of Herodias, his brother Philip's wife, 4for John had been saying to him: "It is not lawful for you to have her." 5Herod wanted to kill John, but he was afraid of the people, because they considered him a prophet.
6On Herod's birthday the daughter of Herodias danced for them and pleased Herod so much 7that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. 8Prompted by her mother, she said, "Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist." 9The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted 10and had John beheaded in the prison. 11His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother. 12John's disciples came and took his body and buried it. Then they went and told Jesus.

 

[forerunner]

Originally Posted by Ricke

So, since Paul Baptized the former disciples John The Baptist in The Name of Jesus, we should not beleive Paul, and wallow in our own self delusion.? ( read; Acts 19 v 1-7). I'm done guys, beleive whatever you care to, maybe The Easter Bunny and Santa do come....tsk tsk.

You fail right here since John the Baptist was dead well before Paul started his ministry. So do you even really know the Bible or only pieces that support your false teachings?

You didn;t even adress his point. Why not? Because you can't you deny the truth for the sake of your religion.

 

[Ricke]

Shard

Paul knew John The Baptist was murdered.
Go read verbatim what Paul said unto the disciples of John The Baptist on Acts 19 v 1-7.....he told them John Baptized in Repentance only. John's Baptism was null and void, after Jesus came on the scene then died at Calvary, and the final dispensation of man was ushered in starting in The Book of Acts. Read that they did'nt argue or debate Paul, they got Re-Baptized in Jesus' Name. You need to do like they did, and stop trying to make a fruitless point....Love anyway...lol.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

No one is lead astray by thre Oneness teaching, but they have been led astray by people who think it is ok to support those that support killing babies.

This is a false assertion (asserting that people are not lead astray by teaching them heresy about Who God is) followed by fallicious reasoning (a Red Herring fallacy is when someone cannot stay on topic but purposefully veers the discussion off track due to ignorance or as a tactic).

Thank you for letting me point this out and being of service to the forum.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

First, you say that the "oneness" doctrine preceded 1914, but then say it doesn't matter what the early church writers said. You are saying that the Original Church believed the onenesss doctrine but all the evidence goes against it.

Then you say that only by revelation will you understand it.

Then you say that I am trying to discredit the UPC, when all I did was to type out parts of the UPC statement of fundamentals.

I would like you to show us a baptism where they used "the Lord Jesus Christ". All of the statements that you use say either the Lord Jesus or Jesus Christ. Which is it and why?

They aren't really reading or considering our posts anymore imo. They certainly aren't responding to the content as a serious religious studies college student or graduate would and it's just more of the same: false information and faulty logic. A good logic 101 course would raise the bar. I'm not engaging ad hominem to "win" a debate. The principles of logic permit a debater to respond directly to the construct of an opponent's argument if that becomes part of the overall logical issue and I believe any debate panel would conclude it has as follows:

Repeating excommunicated heresy, ignoring the sound doctrine of Bible school graduates, avoiding serious rebuttal and discussion which we've posted both from a historical mainstream and truly Biblical position proving the teaching of God is triune and showing this was taught in the early church while presenting an authentic history regarding the modern origins of their heretical sect (which has been excommunicated from mainstream Christianity exactly as the modalists were in ancient times when they arose with the same teaching), all the while simply exercising denial while cosigning each others posts.

I suppose we can simply thank God for His Grace. Peace and God bless friend. He loves them even though they don't truly know Him as He is. I'm glad I've had the opportunity to explain it to them at least. No harm no foul. God bless you.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Only if you have no understanding.

^ Here's an example of what not to do in a discussion.

This simple statement violates many rules of logic including presumption without evidence, the Petitio principii (bases a premise on an unproven conclusion), and it fails to render a fair assessment of the evidence offered for an opponent's position.

Now nobody's perfect, of course, and you don't have to be a scholar to have an informal discussion for sure. But to just make an orphaned unsupported fallicious statement like this and post it...

 

[haley4jesus]

Play nice.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Here's what a properly written post could look like:

At the baptism of Jesus (Matt. 316-17), all three members of the Trinity were present together: "As soon as Jesus [Son] was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God [Spirit] descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven [Father] said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.'"

Matthew 28:18-20 states, "Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.'"

Here we see the resurrected Jesus as God the Son preparing to return to heaven and take his place next to the right hand of God the Father. Before He ascends; however, one of the instructions Jesus gives those present (which include the Apostles) is to make disciples and baptize then in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

World-class Bible scholars such as Dr. Philip Comfort state, "it is clear that the Gospel of Matthew was ascribed to Matthew the apostle by the end of the first century A.D... Having studied every word of the Gospels in the earliest manuscripts, as well as having studied and applied the principles of textual criticism, I can say with confidence that the original wording of the four Gospels-Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John-can be reconstructed with a higher degree of certainty than any other book in antiquity because we have so many ancient source manuscripts and because so many competent scholars have given themselves to this task."

Matthew would have regularly used shorthand to keep track of people's taxes. He could have easily employed this practice in taking notes on Jesus' sermons and then later transferred the shorthand to a fuller, written form. This would not have been unusual in those days. Thus, Matthew's Gospel in limited form may have existed in writing-perhaps originally in Aramaic, a language Jesus spoke-as early as the A.D. 30s.

The false assertions by modern cults and excommunicated sects make like fourth century church officials added the text "of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" is exactly a false assertion. They use the logic that because their cult or sect founder's "revelation" or "vision" must be true; therefore, the text must have been changed. They then usually insist that unless a first century original text is handed to them for their personal evaluation, they cannot accept what the Apostle actually said in his Gospel.

This is, of course, nonsense. Gospels were considered to be "published" books. As recorded by Irenaeus tells us that Mark and Luke "published their Gospels." Irenaeus used the Greek term ekdosis, the standard term for the public dissemination of any writing. Similarly, Irenaeus wrote, "John, the disciple of the Lord, he who had leaned on his breast, also published (exedoke) the Gospel, while living at Ephesus in Asia." This term was used for the official publication of a book, the master copy (archetype) from which other copies would be made. Interestingly, the term gospel (Greek euaggelion) was not used as a descriptor of these written accounts until the middle of the second century. Before these books were called Gospels, they were called narratives and memoirs. A narrative tells a story; a memoir is a narrative composed from personal experience. A memoir could be autobiographical or biographical. Matthew is a biographical memoir.

Now baptism is a declaration of faith in the Father, in the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. Jesus Himself made clear to be baptized in this way as God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit are not impersonal forces or avatars of Jesus or anything but persons. Christianity is the religion of a sinner who applies for salvation from deserved wrath and from sin to the mercy of the God the Father, through the atonement of the incarnate God Son, and by the sanctification of God the Holy Spirit giving themself over to be a moral follower, worshipper, and servant of God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), three Persons but one God. Baptism is an outward sign of that inward washing, or sanctification of the Spirit, which seals and evidences the believer's justification.

Now Oneness Pentecostals reject Jesus’ clear instruction due to their historical error, as has been shown, but also through theological error. They actually insist that because there is power in the name of Jesus (the name of Jesus is used in the Bible as an expression of authority as the person of Jesus Christ-God the Son is the effecter of Salvation who was given all authority by the person of God the Father after Jesus’ resurrection) and their own historical false assertion that somehow translates that Jesus didn't really mean what He said before His ascension and that God the Father and God the Spirit aren't real persons in the One Godhead sharing the same essence and authority but having functional roles and are instead avatars like those characters you play in computer games. It's really amazing they could make such a critical error on such a foundational essential of Christianity. But then they had their sect founder's "revelation" and so went back into scripture and history and took a heretical modalist position based on heresy and misinformation.

Thank you for letting me share this instruction. May God use it in your life to keep you free of heresy and in sound doctrine. Praise the Lord!

 

[forerunner]

This is a false assertion (asserting that people are not lead astray by teaching them heresy about Who God is)

Actually the assumption is your, and that assumption is that Oneness is heresy.

 

[Shard]

Play nice.

Just for future reference, nice is not a word in my vocabulary. Im blunt and must people probably hate me.


Onto other topics, I have failed to ever see any conclusive proof of truth in oneness theology. Though it goes along with the other 50% of views on this website. Im come to conclusion, half the people here are good wholesome Christians. The oterh half are the wackos and nut jobs that the media focuses on to try and give Christianity a bad name.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Actually the assumption is your, and that assumption is that Oneness is heresy.

Here we see the error repeated. The funniest definition of insanity I have ever heard was when someone told me, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." In my humble opinion, he had a good point.